Would you be a good sport?

[Marcus]

OK here it is
You are in the World Championships
You are on the final field target, a walk up.
You are 4 down on the guy shooting now
He shoots a 5
Then he nocks his arow to shoot again instead of moving to the next peg
If he fires he misses
If you tell him you may lose the World Title

What do you do?

[New Tricks]

Of course A but I know of many who would vote B. Been on the receiving end unfortunately before. Shows a very poor sport. I note that there is more of a trend towards B in the FITA fraternity than the IFAA mob. Good thread.

[The One]

I'd tell him. Some things are more important than world titles, and being scowled at for the rest of your career by those who realised that you didn't say anything would be the worse outcome in my opinion.

[James Park]

To let him make a mistake would be a terrible thing to do. I would prefer to lose.

[CMB50]

Am i still the only person to Vote 'No'? :o

You guys are soft. :D

[Eberbachl]

I agree with the above, of course I'd tell him - and I'd rather lose as a result of telling him than to win knowing full well that I let him make the mistake that cost the title.

No question.

;)

[Marcus]

Imagine standing on top of the dais pretending you deserved to be there.

[Brocky]

At least your honest but your such a P***k CMB50 according to everyone else :wink:

[CMB50]

At least your honest but your such a P***k CMB50 according to everyone else :wink:

Can't please everyone all the time.

No should be too concerned anyway - unlikely to find myself in the final of an international Field event anytime soon.

:)

[Brocky]

I'm with you I've got more chance of winning 10 million on lotto :D

[wiggles]

You gotta lok in the mirror for the rest of your life. To me it is the same as cheating. Unfortunately I know some who think that that B is fair game.

[Clare Barnes]

I voted no on the assumption I was against Jim Park, and that he had already got points he didn't deserve after he got FITA to change the rules about old farts shooting on the wrong target! :D

(And to keep CMB50 company!)

[Flame]

You are in one of your moods today Clare :D

[Alan Loy]

I've got no chance of winning anything much. But I would like to ask the competitive people out there why you bother to do archery. I suspect that no one in australia makes a living from archery so it can only be about ego. So who really cares?? If you want to be an ars*e w*ole then do it. The rest of us will just pitty your sorry ars*.

[grantwomack]

If I noticed it (and knew what I was talking about), sure I would mention it. I think the guilt of potentially winning unfairly wouldn't be worth it.

[Ozzy]

Can't see myself being in that situation of winning such a title, but :-
I would tell him, as winning only due to a mistake by a better archer on the day just wouldn't be worth it :)
But I honestly don't think I would notice if other archers had altered their sights anyway. Too concerned with my own 8)

[Archangel]

Yes, and I've done so at a field shoot before - I wasn't really paying attention to what the other guy was doing, so I didn't catch him before he shot his second arrow, but at least he didn't do all three...

[PaulM]

no matter what level of competition, I would rather be seen as a good sportsman than someone who wins through an error.

[Eberbachl]

But I would like to ask the competitive people out there why you bother to do archery. I suspect that no one in australia makes a living from archery so it can only be about ego

So, you're saying that because a: I'm competitive, and b: I don't make a living from archery, then it must only be about my ego?

Come now Alan, that's some seriously flawed logic dude :rofl:

I've got lots of reasons why I like archery, and enjoy competition - none of which are to satisfy my ego.

:roll:

[NOCK HUNTER]

Tell Him 8)

[James Park]

I can see it now, it is the World Field Championships, 2010 in Geneva. Much to the immense surprise of others the final is to be between Clare and Jim. This is because Jim managed to convince FITA to change quite a number of rules to make the sport more friendly (and to somehow exclude those who seem to score too much and monopolise the finals) - now longbowers can choose to shoot in any category they wish (because they are never expected to win), ladies to compete against the men (if they wish), and old compounders are (sometimes) allowed to score misses (if Luke isn't watching).
Clare has shot brilliantly, and they get to the last target all tied. Jim, however, has a major senior moment, and shoots on the wrong face, losing the arrow (because Luke was watching). Clare needs a 5 to win by one but is aimed at the wrong face (we think). And so on .....

[New Tricks]

Makes me think of another thread to do with line calls......

[CMB50]

I'll qualify my 'No' response by saying that it would depend on the situation and who the competitor was I am competing against.

However i stick with my NO.

If I'm against someone on the last target of a major field event and in 2nd place, down by a couple of points and I notice that person has put their sight on 50m instead of 60m or has failed to maintain enough concentration on their game to forget to walk forward to the next peg, then I'm saying nothing.
As far as i'm concerned for the Fita Field game, it's not just about being a good archer, it's also about knowing the game, the rules and the faces. Thats the way the game is currently set up by Fita.
If I'm concentrating on my game and on the last target I know that I have to change my sight setting, then double check it, then shoot, then move forward, change my setting, shoot, etc.. and my competitor doesn't then i am the better Fita Field archer.
A mistake like not walking forward is a mental mistake. It's like being a race car river and forgetting to hit the pitlane speed limiter in time and being penalized. It's like forgetting the snap count in a gridiron game and costing your team the superbowl. It's like not concentrating in an AFL game and running across the oppositions mark, giving away a 50mt penalty and bringing the opposition into range to kick a goal in the grand final after the siren has gone.
We talk about how important the 'mental' side of archery is to being successful. More so than other sports. This is just another example of that.

[New Tricks]

I hope that your own morals come and bite you. Archery is a gentleman's sport. Look at cricket and the recent World XI match. Kallis turned to Hayden and asked if he caught it, Hayden said yes and off Kallis went. That game was for BIG bucks. Switch on.

[CMB50]

No repellant required here then....i appently have no morals



I can't believe that in a game where concentration and mental preparedness is so important that I am 'scum' for not telling my competitors of their mistakes.

Should I also upgrade their 4's to 5's? Afterall they were intending on shooting 5's...why not award them to them? :roll:

[New Tricks]

Take it a step further. You are at the club the weekend before and the archer say'See you Sunday for the comp!!'. You know full well that the comp is Saturday. Do you tell them? Same thing.

[CMB50]

Take it a step further. You are at the club the weekend before and the archer say'See you Sunday for the comp!!'. You know full well that the comp is Saturday. Do you tell them? Same thing.


Yes i tell them. Club level shoots are different - hell anyone who has shot a 3D round with me will tell you that I'll offer advise to anyone who asks for it. I give tips on targets and zones and even distances.

This poll was started with the hypothetical situation of a FINAL at the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS - not at our local club on a Saturday.....or Sunday.

annd it's not the same thing.

[New Tricks]

Ok then. The likely winner of the world championship is a guy you know. You are helping them set up their bow. You weigh it and it comes up at 61 pounds. Do you tell them?

[CMB50]

Ok then. The likely winner of the world championship is a guy you know. You are helping them set up their bow. You weigh it and it comes up at 61 pounds. Do you tell them?

Let's say that person is ..... Eberbachl.

Firstly, he'd be helping me set my bow up! :o :D

Secondly, I'd set it up so it's legal and right to go....no hidden surprises.

If the World Fita field Champs final was between Luke and myself and the proposed situation came into play....well that's a tough question. Good one.

I'll consider it at work tonight (where I'm going now) and when i get home in the morning I'll see how many more people disagree with me and now despise my very being, and give an answer to the question.

[Marcus]

Me and Cam are talking about this and I see his point.

I won't lie, when I watch someone mess up I get a twinge of joy at their mistake. I then remind myself mentally that I am happy because I am messing up more.

Archery is a game against the target, not each other. I can't control the outcome of another archer, and nor should I. I can't play better defence when I'm not shooting well. Archery is a game of mistakes. Every 9 we shoot is a mistake.
If I allow mistakes to happen to someone else I am showing my fear of them. Can't beat them in a straight up shoot.

With that said I don't agree with Cousins who threw an arrow away when his competitor ran out of time in the wind.

[andrewf87]

I reckon you have to tell them. Wouldn't a win feel that much better knowing that the person you beat had equal oppurtunity as you and you beat him purly out of your own shooting skill.

[New Tricks]

Marcus, archery is a game against each other that the target score determines the winner. The number of times I have shot good arrows and scored poorly are too many to count. I would be serioulsy disappointed if someone knowingly let another archer make a mistake that cost them points or whatever because they thought they would beat them. This shows poor moral fibre and any arguement to the contrary is just bollox.

I talked to my wife about this just a few miuntes ago. She played tennis on scholarship in the USA and played satellite pro matches and played the qualifiers for the US open. I asked her to make an anology for tennis. There are huge dollars involved in tennis and the best we could come up with was serving from the wrong side. Firstly we agreed that any experienced player would not make the mistake (see Jim Park's thread) but you would without doubt point it out.

Throw umpires (judges) on top of this and there should never be any errors to the effect. Interestingly enough, the time I was caught by this, there was a judge standing right there as I shot 4 arrows at the wrong face. Three group members and 1 judge said nothing till all four arrows were shot. Then one of the pricks had the audacity to shoot his arrows at my same target with mine still in as the judge would not allow me to walk up and pull them in.

I can go on all night with comparrisons in the 'What would you do' stakes. In a real quick summary, have a good think about what it is you do archery for.

[Bruce]

At the world IFAA titles in 1990 , I believe that Frank Pearson , failed to shoot an arrow at a bugseye target after one of his fellow pro archers , shot a bugseye out of sequence .

I am sure I would always advise my fellow competitors of any error they were about to make .

[New Tricks]

Bruce. That did indeed happen. Frank was up by 8 at the time I believe. This begs the next question. Is it easy to tell when you are way ahead compared to way behind.

[StevenB]

I would tell them,


but it is also part of the game, so if they ****ed it up and you won would that mean you deserved the place any less?


what if it was something a little different,

come to target 20 a 30m 4 spot, archer sets sight on 20m and misses?

[Rednock]

I would have been so involved with my own shooting and mental state, that I doubt whether I would have even noticed that he

[Action Man]

Again, not that i would be in this position any time soon but, I would like to think that i would instantly tell the other archer out of a sense of fair play and because i know i would want to be told if i made the same mistake. However, I can also see CMB's point of view. I know when shooting match play, when it is really close, that i can watch a competitors arrow hit the seven or worse and i think" Yes - he stuffed it up. Now i have a good chance" because i like to win. We all do. I think it comes down to more than fair play.
Being the world champs, I would have trained and practiced and worked my arse off to get there, probably over many years. With the realisation of my dream in sight, knowing that i hadn't cracked under the pressure because of my intensive preparation (and my opponent apparently had) could i throw away the prize.
I like to think i could but until i'm in that situation i don't really know.

[Eberbachl]

I can see it now, it is the World Field Championships, 2010 in Geneva. Much to the immense surprise of others the final is to be between Clare and Jim. This is because Jim managed to convince FITA to change quite a number of rules to make the sport more friendly (and to somehow exclude those who seem to score too much and monopolise the finals) - now longbowers can choose to shoot in any category they wish (because they are never expected to win), ladies to compete against the men (if they wish), and old compounders are (sometimes) allowed to score misses (if Luke isn't watching).
Clare has shot brilliantly, and they get to the last target all tied. Jim, however, has a major senior moment, and shoots on the wrong face, losing the arrow (because Luke was watching). Clare needs a 5 to win by one but is aimed at the wrong face (we think). And so on .....

Jim, you wouldn't shoot on the wrong target face if Luke was watching, because I'd alert you to the fact that you were about to shoot the wrong face before you took the shot ;)

:P

[Eberbachl]

If the World Fita field Champs final was between Luke and myself and the proposed situation came into play....well that's a tough question. Good one.



Ha! You're going down dude! 0X

:rofl:

Like that's going to happen :lol:

[CMB50]

Being the world champs, I would have trained and practiced and worked my a*se off to get there, probably over many years. With the realisation of my dream in sight, knowing that i hadn't cracked under the pressure because of my intensive preparation (and my opponent apparently had) could i throw away the prize.
I like to think i could but until i'm in that situation i don't really know.

This is my point exactly!

If i've gone to the extra effort to ensure that my mental game doesn't lapse ffor one second during the final, I am not going to reward my opponent because they havn't bothered to do the same.

and Luke, sorry, but if it was you and I in the finals at the Worlds and this was the situation I would stay quiet. Because I would have worked really hard to get there and as far as I'm concerned knowing which face to shoot and when to walk up, etc, is all part of the game.

:)[/quote]

[Clare Barnes]

Clare needs a 5 to win by one but is aimed at the wrong face (we think). .....

The "we think" are the interesting words here - not even I would have a clue as if I was shooting my longbow I'd be aiming off the target to the right somewhere! :D

Now with my barebow recurve I'd probably remember to aim at the correct gold, but I'd perhaps just forget to string walk instead! And no, I would not expect anyone to point it out to me as it'd be my fault. :P

Could someone who has won an event through the kindheartedness of a fellow competitor preventing them from stuffing up, comment on whether they feel they "deserved" that win? :-?

[Milkovitsch]

It depends on whether I like the other guy, which usually depends on his attitude (beacuse of course mine if faultless). If he's been a di*k h**d then let him loose.

Hey at least I'm being honest. So be nice to me next time :wink:

[The One]

Would be a slightly more interesting situation if you're only 90% sure he's aiming at the wrong target. A show of good sportsmanship wouldn't appear at its face value if you yelled at him that he was aiming at the wrong target just before his release/clicker went off! :o

[CMB50]

I'm just happy i'm in a sport (archery) where all my competition is more than willing to point out any obvious mistake i'm about to make in order to improve my scores. It's great!


A big thankyou to everyone out there. Archery ROCKS! 8)

[Eberbachl]

...and Luke, sorry, but if it was you and I in the finals at the Worlds and this was the situation I would stay quiet. Because I would have worked really hard to get there and as far as I'm concerned knowing which face to shoot and when to walk up, etc, is all part of the game.

:)

Oh well Cam, I'd just better make sure my mind's on top of it then :P

World Champs or not dude, I'd tell you in a flash. I'm not interested in winning because:

a: My competitor f***ed up

...and

b: I knew he was about to do it but didn't say anything.

;)

[frommy]

I have only shot field at the WMG's, and on the starting butt for our group in the IFAA event I was shooting second on a single spot face. The bloke in front of me was shooting an Alternative Compound, and as I had not seen one in the flesh before, I was having a good sticky at it.

I then noticed his arrow was on the shelf, or what ever it is called on that bow, and told him. He started to let down but the cam escaped him and he lost it anyway. :(

I shoot for enjoyment, and cannot imagine me doing anything else than advise another if I saw they had just made, or were about to make, an error, and would expect the same most times in return.

Brian

[Jay.G]

shotting is pure pleasure for me and well competition is just fun, why ruin it with bad sport? Its not like the sky is going to fall if you don't get the world title., when it is your time, you'll get it.

[Oldtimer]

How can you tell which target another archer is aiming at ? If I see an arrow sitting on top of the clicker, I'll try to (quietly) let the archer know, but that's all I can do. Other than that, I don't think you would have any idea what another archer is aiming at or what distance his sight is set at, until the arrow has been shot.

[Eberbachl]

How can you tell which target another archer is aiming at ? If I see an arrow sitting on top of the clicker, I'll try to (quietly) let the archer know, but that's all I can do. Other than that, I don't think you would have any idea what another archer is aiming at or what distance his sight is set at, until the arrow has been shot.

Perhaps not, but you may notice that the archer didn't change their sight setting after a walkup, or from the previous target. You may notice they are pointed at the wrong column of bugs eyes. You may notice after they shoot the first arrow that they shot the wrong target, but they may not have noticed. You may notice they forgot to walkup on a walkup target, or move across on a fan target etc etc etc...

You may not notice every mistake your fellow competitor makes (nor should you be expected to), but the point is, if you notice they make a mistake, you might wish to alert them to that mistake in the interests of good sportsmanship.

I would ;)

:bday:

[CMB50]

You may not notice every mistake your fellow competitor makes (nor should you be expected to), but the point is, if you notice they make a mistake, you might wish to alert them to that mistake in the interests of good sportsmanship.

I would ;)

:bday:


So would I.

Just not at the World Championships.

:wink:

[Eberbachl]

You may not notice every mistake your fellow competitor makes (nor should you be expected to), but the point is, if you notice they make a mistake, you might wish to alert them to that mistake in the interests of good sportsmanship.

I would ;)

:bday:


So would I.

Just not at the World Championships.

:wink:

:P

:rofl:

;)

[hoyt for life 2]

i would buisy my self with changing my sight or checking something to make it look like i hadnt noticed

[Clare Barnes]

Could someone who has won an event through the kindheartedness of a fellow competitor preventing them from stuffing up, comment on whether they feel they "deserved" that win? :-?

No-one has responded to my previous comment. Okay, so you feel good about losing because you told a competitior he was about to make a costly error ... do you not think that he could feel he does not deserve the win because he has not won by his own merit? :-?

[lcaillo]

I'd say just do the right thing and don't brain-f*** yourself about it.

[Brad]

I would tell him/her 8)

At the end of the day I want to know that I beat everyone without anything like this happening.

As had been said before at the end of they day you only win if you shoot well yourself. You can't change how the other guy shoots.

[Oldtimer]

I'm a little intrigued with this thread.

Do you also consider that gamesmanship - the gentle (?) art of destroying another's confidence or concentration - is cheating ? I do, but it seems that there are quite a few who don't.

If you can beat someone because you deliberately did or said something designed to upset their shooting, can you take pride in that ? All you've done is prove that your shooting was not good enough.

Without watching another archer so closely that you forget to change your own sight or which target / peg you should be using, I don't see how you can possibly know, until the first arrow has been shot, that another archer has made some sort of mistake. However, at that point, a watching archer has a decision to make.

[Brocky]

It is interesting and it does bring us to the question if an archer is considered to be of a high standard or they consider themselves to be of a high standard and you attempt to stop him from shooting the arrow would the archer think I'm not playing your mind games I'm beyond that and your not stuffing up my timing "In the zone" or stop.
Clare interesting question.

[2Dogs]

Well it would depend on the person I was shooting with :D

If they were a well known "Arse hole", and an all round not an enjoyable person to be around..........then I'd sit back and laugh my arse off when they forgot to move forward. :D

I'd probably add a "Suck ****" comment at end of it too! :D

But if they were a "Mate" or someone I enjoy shooting with.............I'd probably do the same thing! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And it would be no good if I was shooting with OD, because even if I told him his was wrong....or your on the wrong peg...or your aiming at the wrong target...... he'd still go ahead and shoot the wrong bloody thing anyway :rofl:, mind you it is and always will be very entertaining to watch :D

Nah actually I'd tell them, cause I'd have to put up with comments for years to come about "If I had of shot the right Target at that Nationals, I would have.............."

Not that any of my friends say things like that :D

[hoyt for life 2]

no ive just changed my mind, i think i would tell them to stop when at full draw and about to reliese, that way im interupting their concentration and clearing my conconce at the same time. if they reliese from the surprise well that would just be unfortunite. :evil:

[jtimps]

I admit that if they were an absolute a*se h*le then I would be very tempted not to but anyone else, if I noticed, without a doubt. Of sourse I am the sort of person that would be in my own little world checking what I was suppose to do and probably wouldn't notice, then promptly copy exactly what they did.
To me archery is about hitting what you aim at, and having fun. The competition side is all good and I love to win, but I want to win by shooting better not through some small slip with the rules.

[Chris]

i'd have to say somethin

[noel mac]

if see an arrow on top of a button i say let down its not safe to shoot, when it comes to shooting targets i know i have shot the wrong face and been told after the third arrow but it was a very minor tournament and they gave me the score in a world champs last target i would have to say something to myself outloud like "come on check your target check your sight get it right" and if they overheard and realised what they where doing could be wrong and made adjustments id be happy winning feels good winning fair and square is better no one can ever give you the crap about winning by default

[Darton1]

Could someone who has won an event through the kindheartedness of a fellow competitor preventing them from stuffing up, comment on whether they feel they "deserved" that win? :-?

No-one has responded to my previous comment. Okay, so you feel good about losing because you told a competitior he was about to make a costly error ... do you not think that he could feel he does not deserve the win because he has not won by his own merit? :-?

Valid point Clare he hasn't deserved the win either it would've been his lack of concentration that cost him and it had to be pointed out to him.
Personaly i wouldn't notice what others are doin i'd be concentrating on what i was doin not what others are.

[hoyt for life 2]

i think there was a simlar insodent at the olympics with a pistol shooter who just had to hit the target to win and he shot the wrong target so only got 2nd.

[yavigaaz]

i'm not in any competitions or anything..
But if i were.. I would definately tell them.. But after they shot their first arrow.. To tell them as they're taking the shot would throw them off.. If the first arrow stuffed up.. and you noticed something.. Yeah tell them.

Winning knowing that everyone had an equal advantage to win is more sweeter than knowing that they had some form of disadvantage, which you took advantage of.

I'd rather win by my skill, other than another person's mistakes.

- jeremy

[mertz]

I used to be a very competitive chess player and, in a tournament situation the chess clock is every bit as important as the position on the board. If my opponent were to make a really good move, a winning move, say, and didn't push his clock he would lose the game on time and I am under no obligation to tell him.

High level compition can be (is) extremely intense and stressfull and it requires a competitor to be hyper AWARE OF EVERYTHING. So it is incumbent upon him and ultimately HIS responsibility to notice his mistake. That's PART OF the competition! So I agree with CMB50 and I would not tell him.

Let's face it we are talking about a (for most of us anyway) once in lifetime event. Something that in the very least takes years to achieve. At first I voted yes but then after careful consideration and reading all the posts I changed my mind, I would want to win. :wink:

[Clare Barnes]

ISo I agree with CMB50 and I would not tell him.

I still go by my previous stance of I would say nothing...

In the possibly ( :roll: ) unlikely event that you, me, CMB50 and Eberbachl make a World Champs, I bet Eberbachl's nightmare would be the four of us on the same target! :D

[hoyt for life 2]

ISo I agree with CMB50 and I would not tell him.

I still go by my previous stance of I would say nothing...

In the possibly ( :roll: ) unlikely event that you, me, CMB50 and Eberbachl make a World Champs, I bet Eberbachl's nightmare would be the four of us on the same target! :D
did i just see a pig fly past my window?

[mertz]

In the possibly ( :roll: ) unlikely event that you, me, CMB50 and Eberbachl make a World Champs, I bet Eberbachl's nightmare would be the four of us on the same target! :D

Yes, but that would put us at an advantage wouldn't it.

:D :D

[mertz]

did i just see a pig fly past my window?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[New Tricks]

Once again, tell them.

[Clare Barnes]

Once again, tell them.

Why? Would you honestly feel like a true winner if the only reason you won was that someone warned you that you were about to lose because of an incorrect sight setting?

Calculating and remembering to do those sort of things is part of the competition. You could get some dumb archer who can shoot an arrow consistently in the gold if you handed him a bow ready to shoot with correct tuning/sightsetting etc, but those adjustments under pressure are all part of the event. To remove that mental part in deciding a winner is removing the true perspective of winning an event without outside assistance.

[Eddie C]

Totaly agree with Clare. You cant tell them that there about to make a mistake, theve got to learn the hard way so they never do it again. It's nice to think and say you would tell them but think about it, would they tell you if you were about to do it?? And would you hate the person for not telling you about it?? No! You would fell like it's your own stupid fault and you didn't deseve to win. That's life, and it cant be handed out on a silver platter! You got to take responsability into your own hand's. I know I would not like to win that way!

[New Tricks]

I would absolutely feel like I won. No doubt and I would have a very high opinion of the archer that pointed out my impending mistake. If I told someone and they beat me, I would feel like they beat me fair and square.

A specific example is the SQAS Field 2005. The archer that came 3rd, shot 3 arrows from the one peg on a walk up and scored them as 1 hit and 2 misses. The judge at the time was of the opinion that this was fine and the other arrows should score as the rules do not specifically say you must walk up.

Had the arrows counted, he would have beaten me but as the Archer saw the essence of the game, he elected to take the scores as zero and I beat him. I even pointed out to him just after the round finished and I became aware of the situation that if the judge lets him have them, fine and dandy, but he elected not to(my opinion is that they should score as a miss) and my opinion of this archer is very very high as a result.

In response to this, I have just given some thought to how I would feel if I knew someone was about to shoot the wrong target, had not set their site or whatever and I knew it before they stuffed up and had a chance to rectify it and it makes me even more adamant that I would tell them.

People who shoot with me will be able to vouch that I always at the change of distances in a FITA remind everybody on my target and the guys I know in earshot to set their sights (especially Noel cos he is old and forgetful).

Archery is about the 2 seconds before the shot goes off. This is where your score comes from and this is what I am competing against. Everything else, a decent person will go out of their way to see that they can help others as much as possible. The vast majority of archers are like this but obviously from this thread, there are some that I certainly would not only be uncomfortable shooting with but would consciously watch my own back at every turn.

Would you call a judge is a person in a Field round was not standing exactly near the stake? Would you let them shoot the arrow then tell them it is a miss or would you tell them to reset their feet?

Using the same logic, I come back to the bow tuning arguement. Would you tell your competitor that there was a slighly more optimal way to set up their bow? Would you after pulling the arrows out of the target and noticing that one was bent/cracked/missing a point, point it out to the archer? Would you correct the archer that you hear in the pub the night before telling his mate 'see you at 9 tomorrow' when the shoot starts at 8? They are all exactly the same thing and anyone who does not see this is lacking some serious moral fibre.

[Eddie C]

You make some pretty good point's there new tricks. Dont get me wrong im not a bad person I just think it shouldn't be that easy. In saying so if an archer has shot all 5's at a longer distance instead of walking up maybee they deserve the point's. At the IFAA national's this year I actually pointed out to a shooter that he had to move forward for his next shot, while he was loading his arrow. I actually had to tell him twice. I didn't mind telling him and he actually had to tell me once aswell. I know it's not the same situation but I would not like to be called a prick if I didn't tell the shooter in a major tournament. What happened if I didn't notice but I was still called a cheat. This is a touchy subject and hopefully im never in this situation.

[Clare Barnes]

Using the same logic, I come back to the bow tuning arguement. Would you tell your competitor that there was a slighly more optimal way to set up their bow? Would you after pulling the arrows out of the target and noticing that one was bent/cracked/missing a point, point it out to the archer? Would you correct the archer that you hear in the pub the night before telling his mate 'see you at 9 tomorrow' when the shoot starts at 8? They are all exactly the same thing and anyone who does not see this is lacking some serious moral fibre.

Rubbish - it is part of being the complete archer - you should be 100% aware and in control of your own gear.

You are again focussing on LOSING because of your generosity. I want opinions from people who have won DESPITE their own stupidity. I for one would not feel like a true winner, and in fact would probably not shoot the arrow at all, as to leave my setting as it was and not aim off to compensate for the known error would be very hard.

[apexrob]

(especially Noel cos he is old and forgetful).



With out Sir OD , My archery would certainly be more boring . I've been in stitches(laughter) :D watching this handicapped sight setter shoot :lol: .
Well said Roid .

[Eddie C]

Im getting confussed!!! Im not sure what I would do now!!! Damm archery forum!!!

[Clare Barnes]

People who shoot with me will be able to vouch that I always at the change of distances in a FITA remind everybody on my target and the guys I know in earshot to set their sights (especially Noel cos he is old and forgetful).

Pleased to read that you're condescending to [oops, I mean you show consideration for] the old and infirm though! :D

(Damn, I'm even more ancient than OD ... even though only by a few months!)

[New Tricks]

Rubbish - it is part of being the complete archer -

You say rubbish. I disagree. I again point out that I only find issues in FITA tournaments with these topics. Why is that?

[Shermo]

I'm with you all the way Alex 0X 8)

If I saw one of my fellow competitors about to shoot from the wrong peg, or forget to change a sight setting between distances in a Target game, I would let them know, it is a very sportsmanlike thing to do :D

[Clare Barnes]

I'm with you all the way Alex 0X 8)

If I saw one of my fellow competitors about to shoot from the wrong peg, or forget to change a sight setting between distances in a Target game, I would let them know, it is a very sportsmanlike thing to do :D

Okay, so it makes you feel good telling them...

I'm repeating myself here but I would like to know how you would honestly feel about WINNING a major event in that way, knowing that being focussed on all aspects of the event (including ensuring that you have the correct sight settings) is part of it all.

And who can guarantee that the archer you "correct" was not wrong in the first place and then claims you were trying to distract him?

Anyway, each to their own, I know would hate to win that way.

[2Dogs]

I don't think 99.9% of archers would feel bad for telling a competitor to "Move up" or "Change your sight" and then go on to win the shoot.

On the same note if I didn't see the peron do it or pickup on it, I wouldn't lose any sleep for not telling them and going on to winning.

But to deliberately not tell someone (and brag about it after :D) would certainly make for some very lonely future shoots.

Because everyone will think your a PRICK!

[Shermo]

I would rather win as a result of my shooting/scoring than by a competitors foot fault 8)

[Clare Barnes]

I would rather win as a result of my shooting/scoring than by a competitors foot fault 8)

I would rather win by my overall good shooting than because someone told me I was about to make an error in part of the complete process of shooting an arrow. :P

I must be bored - why I am bothering to respond again as my chance of ever having to use my decision is ZILCH!

[mertz]

But to deliberately not tell someone (and brag about it after :D) would certainly make for some very lonely future shoots.

Because everyone will think your a PRICK!

If I was the one that made the mistake and lost, and my opponent didn't tell me I would't blame HIM I would BLAME MYSELF. So I certainly wouldn't think he was a prick. Do the terms "crybaby" and "sore loser" mean anything. I mean think about it, how would that look to everyone else, if you said you LOST the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP because your "prick" opponent failed to inform you of your impending BLUNDER. :-?

[2Dogs]

See now there's the difference between being a "Prick" in Australia and being a "Prick" in the USA.

A Prick down here is someone who watched you do it, and then rubbed it in. What your referring to in Aus is more commonly defined as a "Turd"

:wink:

[Eddie C]

:rofl:
CLASSIC!!!

[New Tricks]

See now there's the difference between being a "Prick" in Australia and being a "Prick" in the USA.

A Prick down here is someone who watched you do it, and then rubbed it in. What your referring to in Aus is more commonly defined as a "Turd"

:wink:

Or an Adam.

boom tish

(just poking **** mr richards :fist: )

[2Dogs]

Hey Adam!............. Adam..... WTF is Adam...........cause your livin next door to Adam.....deedeedum dummddeeee :lol:

[apexrob]

:rofl:

[hoyt for life 2]

i shot my first fita field round today and they had a heap of those walk up targets, never seen them before. the first 3 or so i shot 2 from the first peg. no one stoped me. but they all did it to.

[Target Tony]

i voted to tell the competitor of his error he was about to make. i shoot a lot of competition here in the states and when we shoot NFAA Indoor competitiions and move our targets at the half way point.
when we get to the shooting line we tell each other, " remember bottom target ". it is part of the ethics of shooting.
no one wants to watch there competitor make a blunder that will cost him his match or reduce his score because you were to wrapped up in winning to let him know.

who would want to win if a competitior made such a blunder and shot the wrong target and you stood there and watched it happen. im sure you wouldnt admitt it to many people. but just think of the admiration that many people would have for you if you told the shooter ,, ah you need to move up ". and prevented the shooter from making the blunder.

it could be that you would be remembered for that more than the win under such conditions.

Shoot Strong
Tony

[New Tricks]

Funnily enough, I lived this very thread last weekend. I was paired with Jay Bowden in an IFAA field event. Jay shoots quite a bit faster than me. We were on the 23/20 walk up and he was at full draw. I had shot 2 arrows and noticed him at full draw. I yelled at him to let down, let down!!!!! Jay, I said, walk up. Looked at his quiver and he had only shot 1 arrow not 2. Seems I am actually practicing what I preach. Sorry to put him off but would have been sorrier had he shot the arrow and had lost the score.

[KAJ]

i would tell him because it sets a challenge. the reason you are there in the comp is for a challenge and you shouldn't allow such 'mistakes' to help you because that isn''t the point.

[hoyt for life 2]

i would tell him because it sets a challenge. the reason you are there in the comp is for a challenge and you shouldn't allow such 'mistakes' to help you because that isn''t the point.
then you have to ask yourself if incorect form is a "mistake" do you tell someone to put down if their bow sholder isnt in the corect position or if they are over rotating their elbow?

[KAJ]

i would tell him because it sets a challenge. the reason you are there in the comp is for a challenge and you shouldn't allow such 'mistakes' to help you because that isn''t the point.
then you have to ask yourself if incorect form is a "mistake" do you tell someone to put down if their bow sholder isnt in the corect position or if they are over rotating their elbow?

no i would only tell him because it SETS A CHALLENGE. and of ocurse it is the right thing to do lol :D

[Jig]

archery is all for fun, I would tell them. :D

[perry]

Gladens me heart ! good sports and a conscience for the majority.
regards Perry

[OldDog]

You say rubbish. I disagree. I again point out that I only find issues in FITA tournaments with these topics. Why is that?
Because of your prejiduce.;)

[hooter]

Of course you should tell them to move, The act of fair play and good sportsmanship should override any desire to win a tin cup or medal............always. I would like to see how the people sleep that voted NO and won that tin cup. I wonder what they would say if the shoe was on the other foot?
Friends you make on the range last a lifetime and a medal or trophy collects dust or just goes under the bed.
We all have our favourite trophies, wins and how they make us feel, would you still feel they same way about that trophy if you won it that way?

[OldDog]

Of course you should tell them to move, The act of fair play and good sportsmanship should override any desire to win a tin cup or medal............always. I would like to see how the people sleep that voted NO and won that tin cup. I wonder what they would say if the shoe was on the other foot?
Friends you make on the range last a lifetime and a medal or trophy collects dust or just goes under the bed.
We all have our favourite trophies, wins and how they make us feel, would you still feel they same way about that trophy if you won it that way?
Ask dave cousins.;)

[c3]

Actually Dave Cousins has shot one in the dirt after a competitor had an unfortunate miss to even it up. He still won, but inspite of what most people think, Dave is actually a very good sport. He's also a giant dh when it comes to folks breaking the rules :)

Cheers,
Pete

[ec]

you're all a bunch of bleeding hearts ...:)

if you can't remember how to play the game or make a mistake while playing too bad...i'm not obligated to tell you .. and i won't feel bad about not doing so..

next you'll be suggesting that 'bad' arrows can be reshot again because your opponent doesn't usually make poor shots like that..

team kleenex----no wonder- pack of cry babies...:)

[OldDog]

you're all a bunch of bleeding hearts ...:)

if you can't remember how to play the game or make a mistake while playing too bad...i'm not obligated to tell you .. and i won't feel bad about not doing so..

next you'll be suggesting that 'bad' arrows can be reshot again because your opponent doesn't usually make poor shots like that..

team kleenex----no wonder- pack of cry babies...:)
Bingo. field archery is as much about technicalities as archery, Just as you must know how to execute a shot you must know the technical aspects of the game. Its like hopscotch.
I will tell noobs but i wont tell old hands because that is simply part of the competition that is field archery.

[Marcus]

If you have to win by not telling someone to walkup then you are an A grade Loser in my book.
It's worse than changing divisions to win.

[OldDog]

If you have to win by not telling someone to walkup then you are an A grade Loser in my book.
It's worse than changing divisions to win.
ok so we will do away with all the variants in the field game. no walkups, no fans etc. Those are the traps to test your concentration. Otherwise we will all just shoot fita.

[Marcus]

Sure they are traps, but there is a difference in someone shooting 2 arrows from one peg and no one else noticing and another thing to watch your opponent make that mistake and being grateful for it.

[OldDog]

Sure they are traps, but there is a difference in someone shooting 2 arrows from one peg and no one else noticing and another thing to watch your opponent make that mistake and being grateful for it.
Noone said a thing about being grateful, I feel for the guiys that do it. But i have won and been beaten on tech faults. You aint gonna learn by someone softcockin for ya all the time. Lose a game or 2 and you will learn fast.

[Hannah]

Noone said a thing about being grateful, I feel for the guiys that do it. But i have won and been beaten on tech faults. You aint gonna learn by someone softcockin for ya all the time. Lose a game or 2 and you will learn fast.

I don't know, I learn better when someone tells me :)

Anyway, I would say something - that is not only the example I have been given by those you introduced me to Field, but also I couldn't say nothing...against my own code of ethics (when they show up ;))

[CMB50]

Bingo. field archery is as much about technicalities as archery, Just as you must know how to execute a shot you must know the technical aspects of the game. Its like hopscotch.
I will tell noobs but i wont tell old hands because that is simply part of the competition that is field archery.


:thumb: Exactly! Well said!

[Hannah]

I will tell noobs but i wont tell old hands because that is simply part of the competition that is field archery.

What delineates the two? What about those that you don't know?

[Eberbachl]

It's clear to me.

A good sport would tell his competitor if he inadvertently was about to make a mistake.

A bad sport would not tell him, and be happy to win on a technicality.

Personally, if I notice a competitor about to make a mistake, I'll tell them every time, regardless of whether it's a practice round, or at the Nats...

If I win, I want to win because I shot better, not because I let someone make a mistake to get ahead.

:thumb:

[Clare Barnes]

A bad sport would not tell him, and be happy to win on a technicality.

So the guy who wins because you told him he was about to stuff up does not win on a technicality? Of course he does, and what makes you think he will then feel good about his win? :rolleyes:

I still agree with ec, OD and CMB50. :D

[Marcus]

If I win, I want to win because I shot better, not because I let someone make a mistake to get ahead.

Word!! Winning with class is what it is all about. :thumb:

[Eberbachl]

So the guy who wins because you told him he was about to stuff up does not win on a technicality? Of course he does, and what makes you think he will then feel good about his win? :rolleyes:

I still agree with ec, OD and CMB50. :D

I believe most people would be thankful if they were told they were about to stuff up.

If they then go on to win, that's great. They have done so because they have shot better.

And if they're not thankful. Bad luck ;) I'll tell 'em anyway.

Like I said...I don't want to win because someone forgets to walk up, or change a sight setting etc.

:thumb:

[CMB50]

Like I said...I don't want to win because someone forgets to walk up, or change a sight setting etc.

:thumb:

But thats all part of the Fita field game. might as well shoot his arrows for him too!

[Marcus]

ppfffttttt :rolleyes:
they still have to make the shot.
No different than telling people to move their sight between distances on the target range.

[CMB50]

Hey, if I'm playing defence, I'm not going to tell the offence that they've got too many guys on the O-Line or they've got 12 guys on the field....not 'till after the play anyway! :D

[yama99]

I am on the "win because you shot better" band-wagon.

Having said that though, had i made the unfortunate mistake earlier that round, and i believed that the other competitor had intentionally said nothing, i would find it quite compelling to keep a zip on my lip.

I know it would probably still be the good-sportspersonly thing to do, however i'm just not sure.

[Eberbachl]

But thats all part of the Fita field game. might as well shoot his arrows for him too!

Very true, every game has it's own set of rules, and eccentricities, and competitors should make themselves familiar with those rules.

...but still. If one of my competitors was about to have a brain fart and make a mistake, and I noticed I'd tell 'em in a snap.

...and BTW - I have no idea what the hell an O-Line is Cam.

;)

[OldDog]

I think this whole thread is more about how you percieve the various disciplines of archery.
3d has its own traps in that if you misjudge or misdial you miss. (guilty as charged) Noone can see if you misjudge or misdial so suck it up and move on. even a static game like fita has its pitfalls, Wrong butt, too many too few arrows, too slow. Too bad.
Field archery is simply field archery because its traps are at the very heart of this discussion. Without those traps why even have the game. or why have the variances in the game. just shoot the 24 or 28 targets from one position only at each station, 20/30/40/50 etc etc.
My point is not about bad sportsmanship. The game is what it is because those traps are there waiting for the unwary to fall in to and are what seperates field archery from the others. It is no different to missing a shot, you simply ****ed up. nothing more nothing less. suck it up and move on.

[ec]

so, australia appealling against the indian's high draw was it bad sportmanship?

should there have just been a tap on the shoulder followed by "listen mate, buddy, pal...about that draw height...safety , disqualification... etc"

all i saw on the other posts was ..he got a warning and he knew the rules etc followed by comments of 'too bad, tough luck, suck sh..." there was only one poster mentioning that this could have been bad sportsmanship.

well, at the start of a field event the rules are available and if you don't follow them ...too bad...

how is this different to the indian appeal? both, the indian guy knew the rules regarding high draws and the (hypothetical) field competitor knew the rulesabout walk ups ..

why the different position on sportsmanship now?
how is one more sporting and a valid than the other?
they are both dependant on your competitor making a mistake.

--just a note: i am not meaning to stir or have a go at anyone or their acheivements - just discussing the question asked and my thoughts on it.

[Eberbachl]

I think this whole thread is more about how you percieve the various disciplines of archery.
3d has its own traps in that if you misjudge or misdial you miss. (guilty as charged) Noone can see if you misjudge or misdial so suck it up and move on. even a static game like fita has its pitfalls, Wrong butt, too many too few arrows, too slow. Too bad.
Field archery is simply field archery because its traps are at the very heart of this discussion. Without those traps why even have the game. or why have the variances in the game. just shoot the 24 or 28 targets from one position only at each station, 20/30/40/50 etc etc.
My point is not about bad sportsmanship. The game is what it is because those traps are there waiting for the unwary to fall in to and are what seperates field archery from the others. It is no different to missing a shot, you simply ****ed up. nothing more nothing less. suck it up and move on.

If I do make a mistake, I do suck it up and move on...;)

But I'll still let them know if I see someone about to make a mistake.

:thumb:

[CMB50]

...and BTW - I have no idea what the hell an O-Line is Cam.

;)

It was a gridiron reference directed at Marcus.

I think this is an interesting debate at the very least. Some great points being made.

[Eberbachl]

so, australia appealling against the indian's high draw was it bad sportmanship?

should there have just been a tap on the shoulder followed by "listen mate, buddy, pal...about that draw height...safety , disqualification... etc"

all i saw on the other posts was ..he got a warning and he knew the rules etc followed by comments of 'too bad, tough luck, suck sh..." there was only one poster mentioning that this could have been bad sportsmanship.

well, at the start of a field event the rules are available and if you don't follow them ...too bad...

how is this different to the indian appeal? both, the indian guy knew the rules regarding high draws and the (hypothetical) field competitor knew the rulesabout walk ups ..

why the different position on sportsmanship now?
how is one more sporting and a valid than the other?
they are both dependant on your competitor making a mistake.

--just a note: i am not meaning to stir or have a go at anyone or their acheivements - just discussing the question asked and my thoughts on it.

Not really the same thing dude ;)

If the dude with the high draw was warned prior to disqualification, and he chose not to do anything about it, then he has only himself to blame.

...but if I was shooting with him, and I noticed him put his sight on 60m instead of 70m (probably not likely that I'd notice, but let's say I did) I'd say - dude...double check your sight setting.

[OldDog]

If I do make a mistake, I do suck it up and move on...;)

But I'll still let them know if I see someone about to make a mistake.

:thumb:
Did you ever stop to think that by telling them it is actually you who is breaking the rules.

[ec]

"If the dude with the high draw was warned prior to disqualification, and he chose not to do anything about it, then he has only himself to blame."

fair enough..and i agree on that...

but the shooter knows the rules too.

doesn't forgetting a rule and breaking a rule amount to the same thing?

so how is benefitting from one bad sportsmanship and the other good?

[CMB50]

Let's just remember that this whole thread and poll was created around this scenario:


OK here it is
You are in the World Championships
You are on the final field target, a walk up.
You are 4 down on the guy shooting now
He shoots a 5
Then he nocks his arow to shoot again instead of moving to the next peg
If he fires he misses
If you tell him you may lose the World Title

What do you do?


Not a club shoot, practice day or a IFAA, Fita or 3D round.

[OldDog]

If I do make a mistake, I do suck it up and move on...;)

But I'll still let them know if I see someone about to make a mistake.

:thumb:
Luke that is an oversimplified and very evasive answer (or non answer) to a legitimate question.
Once again I ask, Why do you think they have those rules in field archery. Why are there walkups. sometimes one arrow from each walk up position, sometimes 2. Why does ifaa have the 35 yard fan shot. its not as if its a difficult shot to make, so why have it. give us your interpretation of why those rules even exist.

[2Dogs]

Originally Posted by Marcus
OK here it is
You are in the World Championships
You are on the final field target, a walk up.
You are 4 down on the guy shooting now
He shoots a 5
Then he nocks his arow to shoot again instead of moving to the next peg
If he fires he misses
If you tell him you may lose the World Title

What do you do?

I look for Mars! :) and STFU.

OD makes a good point. It's part of the game

[Clare Barnes]

OD makes a good point. [sight settings, walk-ups, rules etc are] part of the game

... as many of us have been saying since the very start of this thread! :p

[badgerhc]

If its the world championships then you have no choice, you are representing your country and you say nothing.
Its the ozzie way :O)

In cricket the umpire gives you 'NOT OUT' and you walk...
dont bother getting on the bus jusy keep walking and walking

[Eberbachl]

Did you ever stop to think that by telling them it is actually you who is breaking the rules.

Is it against the rules to tell someone "hey - don't forget to walk up"?

If it is, I wasn't aware.

Of course, if you're referring to 3D, I know it's against the rules to discuss distance to the target, and I wouldn't do so.

[Eberbachl]

Luke that is an oversimplified and very evasive answer (or non answer) to a legitimate question.
Once again I ask, Why do you think they have those rules in field archery. Why are there walkups. sometimes one arrow from each walk up position, sometimes 2. Why does ifaa have the 35 yard fan shot. its not as if its a difficult shot to make, so why have it. give us your interpretation of why those rules even exist.

I don't think I've oversimplified anything. I don't see it as a complex problem.

Why does IFAA have a 35yd fan shot? Hey, I wasn't on the committee that designed the round, so of course I'm only speculating, but maybe it's to make the shot more challenging by allowing course designers to use different angles, obstacles and light so that different allowances need to be made for each arrow.


:thumb:

[2Dogs]

WRONG!

A fan is there for OD to set his sight wrong, swear & then forget to move up :p :D

[OldDog]

WRONG!

A fan is there for OD to set his sight wrong, swear & then forget to move up :p :D
so much wrong with that, fans you dont move up you tosspot, you move sideways.
Next time we shoot a fan you do the right thing and move up.

[Aechmea]

My point is not about bad sportsmanship. The game is what it is because those traps are there waiting for the unwary to fall in to and are what seperates field archery from the others.

I reckon that it is even more than that though. In EVERY sport/game at elite level, the facet that separates the last players is MENTAL; it is toughness, preparation, concentration, pressure, process, nerves, control, alertness, awareness ....

If you fail at one of those then you have failed at one of the key elements of any sport.

Competitors will make mistakes - thats just the game. Tough.

[STRINGWALKER]

The IFAA game is designed around a format - walk ups / fan shots / straight 4 arrow shots and it is there to test you. Part of this test is to remember what is happening during the event SO forgetting to move your position can cost you....dearly.
In the final call fellow archers don't have to tell you to move, I believe there isn't anything in the rules to stop them telling you either. Whilst you may tell someone to move, they don't have to return the favour and it is here that i have witnessed some explosions.
Being a better shot can win you a tournament but being a better shot and forgetting the format can see you lose.....i believe T Ragsdale lost the 1990 worlds at valla when he shot the bugs eyes up/down not in the Z pattern i.e.shot 4 x 5 to = ten (2 arrows disallowed) none of his fellow Pro's piped up.
I have reminded fellow archers at times and have been reminded, probably depends on the group?
I have a rubber band on my quiver for fans / walk ups - that wraps my remaining 3 arrows and does not allow me to pull them out easily....reminding me to switch the bloody brain on!!!!!!!!!!!

[Black Shadow]

i would have to tell them, i would rather win and know that it's because i was the better shooter not because they made a silly mistake

[Rachel Coghlan]

If I was playing for Gold at the World championships for chess (also a gentleman's sport), and my opponent was placing a playing piece in a position where I could win and earn up to $30,000... would I say, "hey mate, I'm gonna win if you do that." ??????- - I don't think so!!!

I don't shoot, but even i know that archery (at the international level - not state or club level) is about who makes the least amount of mistakes in form, equipment maintenence and psychology.)

Incidently -- At the Nationals this year, Pat was having trouble with his shooting, a random inconsistency was occuring with his shots. It wasn't the bow, his form, or the arrows - he just couldn't work it out after months of testings.

After the event, an opponent said "oh... it's your rest."
I said, "why didn't they say something before," and Pat's reply was,
"Don't be stupid, you don't tell your opponent what they're doing wrong just before you compete against them!"

(He was happy for the advice after the event, and completely understood why they didn't offer it before hand!)

Secondly,

What I saw at the Indoor world champs in Denmark was far from "Australian" sportsmanship. Putting the opposition off as they're making their shot by throwing your own equipment on the ground with a yell, as they release their final arrow!! But then again different cultures have different ideas on "sportsmanship" don't they -- so at the worlds whose rules do you play by????

I can't even imagine, that ice skating guy at the Winter Olympics saying, three people made mistakes in the Gold medal race. I only won a gold because they screwed up, so lets re-race it!! He qualified, and didn't screw it up - He deserved his win. (then again, perhaps he should have stopped racing, and helped them up, and then tried to win the race!!!)

I can't even consider an AFL coach calling the opposing team during the Grandfinal and saying, oh yeah, if you play that guy there you'll lose, I thought I'd be your mate and tell ya!"

You give advice to beginners and at State level, but at the Worlds, with tens of thousands of dollars at stake, offered by the competitors' individual sponsors for a win, so that you can afford to continue to compete at the international level??? NO WAY!!

Incidently, I don't know what Pat would do, but I'd kill him if he told me he had told the winner how to win against him at the worlds-- I could have taken a year off work instead of putting my kid in child care fulltime to help earn the money to send him overseas without me, just so he could bl**dy shoot!!

I'm with you Clare and CMB50!!!
You win coz you made the least mistakes!

[2Dogs]

I could have taken a year off work instead of putting my kid in child care fulltime to help earn the money to send him overseas without me, just so he could bl**dy shoot!!


See! a well trained unit :)

[Rachel Coghlan]

:rofl:

You're naughty!!!!:)

[Clare Barnes]

I'm with you Clare and CMB50!!!
You win coz you made the least mistakes!

:thumb:

[OldDog]

:thumb:
Check her spelling first Clare.;)

[Clare Barnes]

Check her spelling first Clare.;)

Na, I only do that to annoy some people, not when we're on the same side! ;)
Anyway, Rachel's a drama teacher so she has an excuse for not being able to spell!
:bolt:

[OldDog]

Na, I only do that to annoy some people, not when we're on the same side! ;)
Anyway, Rachel's a drama teacher so she has an excuse for not being able to spell!
:bolt:
Was that drama teacher or drama queen Clare.:rofl:

[Tegs]

Yes i would, because if you didn't you wouldn't be winning from your shooting, you would feel slightly gulity and to be good at sport you need good sportsmen ship. If you were going to shoot the wrong one how would you feel if you weren't told!?

[Tuck]

As a responsible archer I would vote no !

The Archer "warning" the opponent about their potential mistake could be deemed to have "interfered" with an archer on the line and would therefore potentially expose themselves to disqualification. It would make a neat irony if the "opponent" ended up winning on appeal against the good samaritan.

Put that in your bow and shoot it!!!! :shocked!:

[bigfella]

What goes around comes around!

At the world IFAA field in Harvey Bay this year, I notified the eventual gold medal winner in my division that he was about to shoot from the wrong peg. He was extremely grateful for my notice.

Some lanes later I was about to do the same thing and he returned the favour. I think the moral is do for others what you would like them to do for you.

I have no problem that he won the gold and I placed 5th

[OldDog]

As a responsible archer I would vote no !

The Archer "warning" the opponent about their potential mistake could be deemed to have "interfered" with an archer on the line and would therefore potentially expose themselves to disqualification. It would make a neat irony if the "opponent" ended up winning on appeal against the good samaritan.

Put that in your bow and shoot it!!!! :shocked!:
Are you listening Luke.;)

[alexvpaq]

seen a coach giving a string to a member of another team... he was quite gentle he didn't even asked a $ for it...

[Eberbachl]

After the event, an opponent said "oh... it's your rest."

If I noticed someone's gear was faulty, I would certainly let them know ;) straight away.

If it was simply a matter of their bow not tuned being omptimally, then, sure that's not something they need to know ;) - but that's very different to alerting a competitor about a potential mistake.

Putting the opposition off as they're making their shot by throwing your own equipment on the ground with a yell, as they release their final arrow!! But then again different cultures have different ideas on "sportsmanship" don't they -- so at the worlds whose rules do you play by????

Whos rules (of ethics) do you play by?

I thought the answer was obvious.

Your own of course.

I would not stoop to somebody elses level if it didn't line up with my own sense of what was right just because they saw fit to behave improperly by trying to put off their competitors.

I think at the end of the day, whatever your standards are...they're really all you've got, and you need to stick to them, regardless of how others behave.

:thumb:

[Eberbachl]

Are you listening Luke.;)

I've already asked you to show me where it's against the rules OD (to alert a fellow competitor to a mistake), and you have not done so.

If you are able to, I'd be glad to read it.

:thumb:

[OldDog]

I've already asked you to show me where it's against the rules OD (to alert a fellow competitor to a mistake), and you have not done so.

If you are able to, I'd be glad to read it.

:thumb:
Please show me where you asked me that Luke. Must be my oldtimers again.;)

[Clare Barnes]

OK here it is
You are in the World Championships
You are on the final field target, a walk up.
You are 4 down on the guy shooting now
He shoots a 5
Then he nocks his arow to shoot again instead of moving to the next peg
If he fires he misses
If you tell him you may lose the World Title

What do you do?

No point in quoting any FITA rules on this hypothetical as 4.5.3.6 states quite clearly "The FITA Field Archery World Championship Round in which there are no walk-up or fan targets..."

Now I'll have to find rules for other field events ... :(

[alexvpaq]

Once in a competition There was a dude he told me : Hey you shoudn't unmount your bow that way... You can twist the limbs
I answered : Dude... That's an optima... so it's a factory setting these limbs twisting
He looked at me shooked his head and turned back with his friends lol:silly:

[Eberbachl]

Please show me where you asked me that Luke. Must be my oldtimers again.;)

.........

Did you ever stop to think that by telling them it is actually you who is breaking the rules.

.........

Is it against the rules to tell someone "hey - don't forget to walk up"?

[Rachel Coghlan]

you.

I have no problem that he won the gold and I placed 5th


I wonder how 2nd would feel??

[Marcus]

OK on the other side of the fence.
You are against someone who you know gets nervous. Would you tell them the score to gain an advantage?

[2Dogs]

Yep :)

[Clare Barnes]

Following on from Rachel's comment ponder over this scenario:

Okay, you tell someone else they are about to forget to walk up but that in fact allows that forgetful person to win over not you, but another archer, on the same or even on another target possibly. Is that fair that you have then showed preferential treatment to one person, allowing them to therefore beat another person? Could the other person who now comes second then appeal that the winner received outside assistance? Could you feel so wonderful about your 'generous' action towards the winner, when you

[Marcus]

the second place shooter should have shot better.

[Eberbachl]

the second place shooter should have shot better.

Precisely. If the second place shooter shot better, he'd be the first place shooter instead of crying about being the first loser ;)

I would have no problem with it.

I don't think it's either generous, or preferential.

Most would certainly do it for one of their "buddies"...

I would simply do it for anyone with whom I was shooting. Not just a buddy, or a competitor. It wouldn't matter if they were in a completely different division.

And in my experience, most groups I've shot with have been happy to alert eachother to a pending mistake.

If it can be shown of course, that it's actually against the rules (I'm still waiting on that...) I'd be happy to stop doing it. But until then, I think it's the only decent thing to do.

:thumb:

[Rachel Coghlan]

Clare might be able to locate the right part of the "constitution" for reference, but isn't telling someone their mistakes on the line .... coaching?

And, are you allowed to coach, or be coached, during a World Title Event???:confused:

And if the answer is "yes, you can coach on the line" ... someone could make a stack of money if they were interested in following some dweeb around all day pointing out how to shoot the event properly to win the tournament!

(Now I'm seeing $$$$$$$$ signs!! :D Would one charge by the hour, or the tournament??? :rolleyes: ) :silly:

[Eberbachl]

....but isn't telling someone their mistakes on the line .... coaching?

I think that's clutching at straws.

It's not like anyone would be behind the dude saying......remember how we're using that release....blah blah blah

Just a simple...hey dude...don't forget it's a fan ;)

That's not coaching in my opinion, and I think to call it such is an attempt to outlaw a practice not otherwise defined in the rules (unless of course it is.....still waiting on that one).

Really...if people are afraid of losing because somebody else might tell them if they're about to forget to walk up or shoot a fan shot, then they should go do some more practice and learn to shoot better.

Archery is about who can shoot the highest score after all ;)

[Rachel Coghlan]

Archery is about who can shoot the highest score after all ;)

or

Who can make the least mistakes to create the highest score!


This is such a no win argument!!!!!! :frusty:

Good idea Marcus - great thread starter!:thumb: :D (that sounds sarcastic, but I can't find an appropriate smiley to change its tone!!! its not meant to be.) :confused:

[apexrob]

Really...if people are afraid of losing because somebody else might tell them if they're about to forget to walk up or shoot a fan shot, then they should go do some more practice and learn to shoot better.

Agree .

[2Dogs]

PM Sent ;)

[OldDog]

I think that's clutching at straws.

It's not like anyone would be behind the dude saying......remember how we're using that release....blah blah blah

Just a simple...hey dude...don't forget it's a fan ;)

That's not coaching in my opinion, and I think to call it such is an attempt to outlaw a practice not otherwise defined in the rules (unless of course it is.....still waiting on that one).

Really...if people are afraid of losing because somebody else might tell them if they're about to forget to walk up or shoot a fan shot, then they should go do some more practice and learn to shoot better.

Archery is about who can shoot the highest score after all ;)
It may not be coaching in your opinion Luke but it certainly is in mine.
Once again it highlights the different way we view this whole deal. To me the shoot format that separates field archery from other disciplines is an intrical part of the game and the psyche of such, To you it isnt. simple as that.

[New Tricks]

This whole thread shows the down turn in the good old fashioned Aussie 'fair go'. Lets go back a while to the return fixture with the Socceroos v Uraguay. Our blokes came back on a fully kitted out Qantas aircraft with beds and the like for recovery. Uraguay being about 20 cents away from a third world country can only afford Economy for their players. We are a wealthy country and the sporting thing to do would be to pony up so that the Uraguay team had the same opportunity and we could have a true test of who the better side was.

Sure archery is a sport but lets not forget sportsmanship. Win at all costs is just not a thing I can stomach. You have to look at yourself in the mirror.

[OldDog]

Mu God Rhoid you are right. I have never felt so ashamed in my life. Thinking of those poor uraguain footballers clinging to the wings of that cessna for dear life Just saddens me beyond belief.
I hearby appoint you the official mascot for that team and i will be sending my dontation of 1 dollar (that should get 2 more of them here next time) to your address.
You will be expected to set up a trust account and judiciously hand out grants to uraguains as you see fit. :thumb:

[New Tricks]

Well even though a small gesture, it shows the first step towards a decent nation. This joint has gone to the 'dogs' of late.

[OldDog]

Well even though a small gesture, it shows the first step towards a decent nation. This joint has gone to the 'dogs' of late.
RHOID...As a rider to my last post I should mention that uraguain chics with hot asses and big tits do not constitute football players.;)

[STRINGWALKER]

Becoming a bit of a circular argument this......it comes down to choices, shoot a comp the way you see fit......ain't any one but you living in your skin!

[OldDog]

A circular argument...Is that where the combatants belt each other around the ring.:o :thumb:

[Clare Barnes]

Another scenario, though move away from the World Field Champs aspect.

You’re shooting a ranking round for a major FITA Target event which means you are not on a target with your team-mates, but with archers from other nations.

Your team is coming second (you can see the leader board) by a few points behind another team who happens to have a team member on your target, and there is another team a few points further back. You finish your last 6 arrows quickly and sit down.

The member from the team in the lead who is on your target is about to leave the shooting line when you notice he still has an arrow in his quiver – that part of his quiver has been empty at the end of every other end of the day. He has shot only 5 arrows that end. If you tell him he still has time to shoot his last arrow, and his team will finish ranked 1.

If you don’t tell him, your team will rank 1…

If you rank 2, remember that the team with the best matchplay record happens to finish ranked 3rd …

Will your team mates/coaches/sponsors/country thank you for it? :-?

[OldDog]

Another scenario, though move away from the World Field Champs aspect.

You’re shooting a ranking round for a major FITA Target event which means you are not on a target with your team-mates, but with archers from other nations.

Your team is coming second (you can see the leader board) by a few points behind another team who happens to have a team member on your target, and there is another team just a few points behind you. You finish your last 6 arrows quickly and sit down.

The member from the team in the lead who is on your target is about to leave the shooting line when you notice he still has an arrow in his quiver – that part of his quiver has been empty at the end of every other end of the day. He has shot only 5 arrows that end. If you tell him he still has time to shoot his last arrow, and his team will finish ranked 1.

If you don’t tell him, your team will rank 1…

If you rank 2, remember that the team with the best matchplay record happens to finish ranked 3rd …

Will your team mates/coaches/sponsors/country thank you for it? :-?
interesting scenario Clare.

[tombutt]

i would have to say both as it would depend on the person

if it was cartz i would tell him durring the shot right before his clicker goes off

[James Park]

If I am to win, I would wish to do so with the other guys shooting well. I have won a tournament by 1 point several times, won by more than an end several times, and come second through losing on countback about a dozen times. I know for sure that the most fun has been when it has been close and both of us shot well (win or lose).
I would certainly assist a competitor if he was going to make a mistake.

[Clare Barnes]

If I am to win, I would wish to do so with the other guys shooting well. I have won a tournament by 1 point several times, won by more than an end several times, and come second through losing on countback about a dozen times. I know for sure that the most fun has been when it has been close and both of us shot well (win or lose).
I would certainly assist a competitor if he was going to make a mistake.

They can shoot well, but a huge part of being a good competitor is the mental game, so why try and excuse people who when under the pressure of competition stuff up on the thinking side of it all?

You guys have all admitted in the past that a huge percentage of being a good archer is mental, over equipment/form etc - so why are you now busy assisting people who fail on that aspect of it at a major event? :-?

[Eberbachl]

so why are you now busy assisting people who fail on that aspect of it at a major event?

Because I believe it's the decent thing to do if a competitor is about to make a simple mistake.

...they still have to hold it together mentally to make the tough shots, and not choke when it comes down to the line, but I don't want to win just because some dude forgets to walk up, or change a sight setting.

I'll alert them every time, and then try to beat them on my own merits rather than taking the soft option and hoping that they make a mistake in the order in which they shoot a target, or wrong face, or not walking up etc...

[2Dogs]

What I love is when you do help someone.

2Dogs & Apexrob -"Hey OldDog, did you change your sight, it's 40 yards"

OD - "<laughing> oh yeah I've set it to 40, don't you worry about that"

OD - "POP....dirt"

OD - "@#@#@#@$@$@!@@@@@@######$@$@@ "

2Dogs & Apexrob -" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl:"

[Eberbachl]

:rofl:

Sounds about right...

:thumb:

[Jay.G]

:rofl:

[James Park]

At our State Target a couple of years back we reminder Leigh Cornish to change his sights after the lunchbreak. It transpired that he had already done so prior to lunch (moved it to 50M). When we reminder him after lunch he moved it again - to 30M.

[Clare Barnes]

That's taking advantage of the elderly to enable yourself to win! :p :D

[Marcus]

I guess the question is, what is more important in competition? Winning or enjoying yourself?
The theme with those who say they won't help is that they put winning first. Winning is great, but it isn't everything.

[Jay.G]

I think fun is more important, having fun makes winning even better and if you don't have fun, winning is really just a word and maybe a piece of metal with strips of fabric.

[puddin]

I think fun is more important, having fun makes winning even better and if you don't have fun, winning is really just a word.

this is very true. i used to feel winning was everything when i was like 14 but now enjoyment is the most important thing.

[Clare Barnes]

By the time you're in a World Championship final (remembering the original question) I would imagine that winning should take priority over fun. :-?

Something like this sounds fun instead though:

When ? November the 25th and 26th of 2006

Where? Ballarat Bowhunters Club Inc. Ballarat Field and Game Club Grounds Bells Rd, Haddon

Shooting fee’s $ 15 Adults $ 10 juniors

Who can come? All longbow and recurve archers are welcome, non ABA guests sign visitors book and pay $2 insurance fee

Equipment and Rules : No Wheel bows, no sights, enjoy yourselves

[Jay.G]

But I should make an amendment, some people thinks winning is the fun. Yes I do agree with you clare but I think at that stage, your emotional structure will be extremely different, i.e. by that time fun is secondary because if you do make into the finals in the world/international stage, winning would be primary because you must've put in alot of practice/time to get there in the first place and you wouldn't want to make them all for nothing.

[rachel]

We had that situation at the World Field Trial in 2002 at Sherbrooke. I was shooting with Michael Robinson, Kellie Weston and Madeleine Ferris. Madeleine shot the wrong bugseye column for her first arrow and we just automatically looked around for a judge and then told her that she'd shot the wrong column. If we hadn't told her, then she might have shot all three in the wrong column, and the difference would have been that Kellie was on the team not Madeleine (maybe, can't really remember scores).

I think it all depends on the circumstances at the time, and with field how do you know that the guy on your target is actually winning. There might be someone else on another target who was down in points on the first day but then has a blinder on the second day and catches up or passes the guy you think is coming first.

It also depends on your conscience and whether you could live with winning that way.

[Jay.G]

Ah just about to say guilt when i read your last line. I concur totally, if it was me and it was down to one point I'd still say it. Can't have that on my conscience and then, It would probably make me feel less of a winner and the bigger the competition the worse the guilt.

[alexvpaq]

Once in a field I shot bvefore the starting whistle at my first competition people around me just move in front of the shooting line hidding the target when the judge walk behind us to give me a chance :P I really liked that^^
Saved me something like 4 points :D

[2Dogs]

I would have kicked your french arse out and DQ'd you :)

[alexvpaq]

I would have kicked your french arse out and DQ'd you :)
Coz your a Cheap arse dog
:silly:

[keno88]

i wouldnt really know what to do, ive never been in a field event before so that would be pretty new to me.

[Jay.G]

I think its just the same as in any other tornument.

[bigfella]

I wonder how 2nd would feel??

I think that is their problem Rach. Ultimately I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror when I wake up.

[Eberbachl]

I think that is their problem Rach. Ultimately I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror when I wake up.

I agree.

2nd should have shot better, and if they're pissed with somone else for their loss, they deserve 2nd place.

:thumb:

[alexvpaq]

i wouldnt really know what to do, ive never been in a field event before so that would be pretty new to me.

yup that's why I try to keep away of competition other than FITA :rofl: Making lot of dumb mistakes awww:mad:
it also happened
last year when I did another FITA I shot an arrow then *Whistle* OH crap :mad:
this year I won't... I hope...:silly:

[Mark M]

I think if you win because you failed to help give assistance to another person ,WELL what sort of win is that.If you can not win on your own merits and have to either gloat at someones mistake or win because you know they stuffed up it is a hollow victory.

[Mike13]

I guess the question is, what is more important in competition? Winning or enjoying yourself?
The theme with those who say they won't help is that they put winning first. Winning is great, but it isn't everything.
That's loser talk boy. :lol:

Have been following this thread with interest. My opinion - screw them. Sport is about not making mistakes. It's another kind of mistake.

[bowbot]

I would rather have an honourable victory, and not have people say it was due to poor sportsmanship.

[Sten]

I'd tell him; I've shot wrong faces and shot arrows from the wrong peg before and I wouldn't wish the pain I put myself through for it on anybody else.

[Clare Barnes]

I would rather have an honourable victory, and not have people say it was due to poor sportsmanship.

Do you mean that you would tell someone they are about to stuff up so YOU feel good about it?

You would have rather they won despite mental incompetence under pressure, rather than someone winning because of the ability to compete in both the physical and mental game?

:frusty: I would hate to win under those circumstances. Winning because of your own ability is fine, but having a competitor tell you what to do should not be. Archery is a test of both the physical and mental aspect so you should be prepared to be judged on both.

[Luke]

I could easily vote no...

Only for the reason that there are rules that govern all aspects of the game.

Would Adam Gilchrist tell Freddy Flintoff that he had "wandered out of his crease" while Gilly was still in possesion well after the ball had been recieved by the keeper? OR would he rip the bails off?

If my oponent is not sharp enough to remember ALL rules and aspects of the game, then it's to my benefit and I am the victor. If a cognitive lapse due to fatigue cost someone the title, then so be it.

At that level it's survival of the fittest and that means you need to be switched on to, and remember ALL aspects of the game - not just the fact that you need to shoot an arrow at a target.

Having said that, I'd probably tell them anyways cause my Mum would slap me for not doing it... :rolleyes: :rofl:

Great post Marcus, very challenging.

[cschach]

I'd say tell him, but I don't think it is particularly unsporting not to for all the reasons that have been put before.

As a slight variation, imagine that you are too far behind for it to make any difference, but a third archer will either win or lose based on your decision. Is it right for you to influence the outcome based on your own sense of what constitutes a non-archery mistake?

In that situation I would probably keep my mouth shut. If the other archer was in my group I would probably subtly make him aware of the situation, but that's where I would leave it.

[Coghlan]

What happens if you tell them to do something but you made a mistake in what you told them to do.......and they lost and you won......who will have wished they kept there mouth shut then....

[Mervwho]

To shoot in that level of Competion one would assume that all competitors were experienced, had been shooting that game for considerable time and that they know the rules of the shoot. I would anticipate that this scenario has never occurred at that level, if it has, what was the outcome? I don't think that it comes down to bad sportsmanship if you don't speak up, it could very well be bad sportsmanship to speak up and interupt their concentration and then personalities can play a major part in your decision.
Answer C. don't know. My heart tells me yes my head tells me no.
Good post.

[reversehaven]

here and now i'll say yes. i'll tell him. be a good sport.


but down to the moment.. when the prize is just at my fingertips.. i can almost just touch it.. everything.. the world depends on it... i don't know if i'll be able to overcome my selfish human nature which prompts me to sieze that unfair advantage......

well, sieze that unfair advantage is an active action. but here we're talking about a passive action, which is to NOT tell him. this unfair advantage is much easier to take. Honestly speaking... right there and then.. i won't know. three quarts of me thinks i might just end up passively seizing that unfair advantage... while half of me thinks i might just muster the courage to tell him on time...

whatever the case, i guess just play hard, work hard, train hard, shoot hard. i'l think about it IF and WHEN i really do get there.

[burt666]

As i've got panache & style :rofl: I'll tell him, and take a "luxurious" 2nd place :( for this year:p

But he is a good sport too and pays me s#$t lots of booze after the shoot :thumb: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Jerrytee]

I would like to think I would do some thing, may be drop a hint ,like 'Are you sure you want to do that?' . When it come down to it mistake is mistake whether it's a bad loose or anything else and he made one more than you did.

[Jay.G]

O that might be misunderstood... Like you are trying to create extra pressure for your opponent.

[sakygen]

If you tell him his mistake, you might be accused of ruining your competitor's concentration. He might blame his loss to you.

On the other hand, what's the use of winning when you won not doing the right thing? Would you feel happy? No.

[hoyt for life 2]

I would.

[Hellspawn]

I'd tell him, lose the title and regret it for the rest of my life.. but I would tell him.

[mike]

I'm a "don't know", but I lean towards "No".

Great thread!

Reality is that I'd probably not ev