Line calls. In or out.

[New Tricks]

When being the arrow caller on a target, if there is a close either way type arrow for another archer, how do you call it?

Do you call a judge?

I personally ask them what they(the owner) think it is. The archer always knows what the arrow has scored and in a group situation is more likely to call it like it is. I tend to find as a caller, I call the other archer's arrows the higher score.

If it is yours what do you do?

I personally ask the number 1 scorer what they think. I hate nothing more than calling my own arrows by mistake. I shot an entire IFAA nationals with another archer with near identical arrows to me and I called them back to front a few times and group members picked me up on it thankfully. Once in my favour, once not.

Judges generally in my experience always give the higher score. I like the way of FITA field with the group decision guidelines.

I note that the money game of IFAA does not have judges and also has much less in the way of arguements with respect to line calls.

Are judges perhaps not needed? The thread on telling an archer that they are about to make a mistake has got me thinking. I would like to think that archers as a whole are decent people but it seems that there are a few who are not. Feel free to PM me with your displeasure.

[Marcus]

I try and give all archers the benifit of doubt as I may need it one day.

[CMB50]

I try and give all archers the benifit of doubt as I may need it one day.

Same here.

Line calls are completely different kettle of fish to mental errors (telling a competitor of their mistake).

[grantwomack]

If I am calling my own arrows and one is close, I always call it the higher value. There are usually plenty of people who will be more than happy to challenge me if they think it is out.

That said, I usually give people the benefit of the doubt, if it is close and we don't want to get a judge involved. Like Marcus said, it may help me out in the future! :) Good karma!

[Archangel]

If I'm calling, I call the arrows as I see them; it's up to the other archers to disagree. If I think one of mine is a line cutter, I'm nut hedging about with "oh.... could be a 10...."

Obviously we then get a judge if there's a disagreement, but only if someone actually disagrees - too many seem to want to skip making the decision and get a judge over regardless.

Are judges perhaps not needed?
I believe they're not going to be doing line calls in field shoots before long? So in that sense at least, they aren't needed.

[Eberbachl]

If it's my arrow that is close, I ask the group t call it.

I won't call my own arrow, and I'm happy to take what the group decides.

If I'm asked to call an arrow, I'll call it as it is. If it's in, it's in, if it's out, it's out.

I've never really understood why all the fuss - it's pretty easy to tell if it's in or out, and if it's so bloody close I'm really having trouble, then as far as I'm concerned it's in.

;)

[Peter King]

Ideally we would all be operating on the samer basis when judging line calls without the judge. One input which would be useful would be publication of the judges' interpretation on "benefit of the doubt" which I think surfaced about 5 years ago.
I think it brings "benefit of the doubt" into play only when a clear decision cannot be made, but there may be more to it.
If anyone has the interpretation/instruction to judges, why not post it here??

[Jason Livingston]

When looking at line calls, I start with the mind set that it is the higher value and I look at the arrow to prove it. With three archers on a target, I see no need to call a judge, I prefer group consensus. If the arrow is mine, I don

[Clare Barnes]

If anyone has the interpretation/instruction to judges, why not post it here??

The AA Judges Manual (1996 version as it leaves room for a second opinion but that should not make any difference to the first call anyway):

...

In simple terms this means if an arrow touches a line or where the line "should be" then it shall score the higher value.

If your view of the arrow is restricted to a point that you feel you can not really determine the true value, then your decision should be to award the higher value to the arrow in question - give the archer the benefit of the doubt.

The simple philosophy to follow is, it is up to you to determine if the arrow is IN of the higher scoring zone, not that it is OUT.

...

That applies to target (indoor and outdoor) and field, clout has a slightly different interpretation but I won't bother as Marcus would probably delete it anyway! :D

[2Dogs]

I call all my arrows in, and all my competitors out. And if they argue with me I call a Judge......and then I argue with him :D

[New Tricks]

Speaking of Adam, I saw his name on the list for next Weekend.

[2Dogs]

:rofl: really?

Someone just won $50

[OldDog]

yeah.......me. :rofl:

[Milkovitsch]

I tend to be pretty hard, to be honest, and will be the same with my own arrows as I am with another archer's.

If I think it's out I will call it out, if I think it's touching the line then it's in. I expect nothing less from anyone else when they are judging my arrows.

Being 'forgiving' to another because they might then be judging ny arrows I don't believe in; what I do expect is that others will judge my arrows on their merits, not based on whether they thought I was too hard on them. If it's in then it's in.

If it's so close that I cannot be certain, even with a magnifying glass, then it's touching the line.

[The One]

I make an honest call as to what I think the arrow scores, doesn't matter whether it's mine or another's arrow. If the target is in a condition so that it cannot be accurately decided, then of course you give the benefit of the doubt.

[hoyt for life 2]

double post

[hoyt for life 2]

I make an honest call as to what I think the arrow scores, doesn't matter whether it's mine or another's arrow

year right

i userly call it up if its someone elses, if we were within a couple of points it would be a bit different of corse.

[Peter King]

Clare Barnes wrote:
Peter King wrote:
If anyone has the interpretation/instruction to judges, why not post it here??


The AA Judges Manual (1996 version as it leaves room for a second opinion but that should not make any difference to the first call anyway):

Quote:
...

In simple terms this means if an arrow touches a line or where the line "should be" then it shall score the higher value.

If your view of the arrow is restricted to a point that you feel you can not really determine the true value, then your decision should be to award the higher value to the arrow in question - give the archer the benefit of the doubt.

The simple philosophy to follow is, it is up to you to determine if the arrow is IN of the higher scoring zone, not that it is OUT.

...


That applies to target (indoor and outdoor) and field, clout has a slightly different interpretation but I won't bother as Marcus would probably delete it anyway! :lol:

Clare..thanks. That's what I was looking for.
A number of posts here refer to being honest, hard or fair, which is only what we should expect, but they seem to have different slants on the consequent call.

This advice to judges clarifies the very basis for us to make correct calls, without fear or favour. In = in, out = out, can't really tell = in. QED.

[Milkovitsch]

This advice to judges clarifies the very basis for us to make correct calls, without fear or favour. In = in, out = out, can't really tell = in. QED.
Essentially this is what I do. What annoys me is where judges (and it occured twice at the Australia Day shoot) call a shot 'in', with a big smile on their face, when it's clearly out.
I have very good eyesight, thankfully, and sometimes it's obvious what an arrow should be. Judges should remember that ususally they are called because there is disagreement by the archers, so they need to be very accurate with their conclusion. This is their job, it's not to show how lenient they can be.
At one particular tournament, one archer would wait until judge 'A' was busy elsewhere, then call judge 'B' knowing that he would 'give it to him'. hardly what you'd call fair.

[Clare Barnes]

If anyone has the interpretation/instruction to judges, why not post it here??

http://www.archery.org/clients/fita/web/pdf.nsf/$All/D86A3E2A413DC074C1256EDE004DE847/$File/JudgeGuidebook2006_withoutsponsors.pdf?OpenElement has the latest verion of the FITA Judge Guide Book - all 103 pages of it.

[New Tricks]

If an archer who is calling the arrows asks for a second opinion i always give an opinion and I always call it the higher score. If it is that close, call it in. It is just a game after all. Great thread by the way.

[Archangel]

If an archer who is calling the arrows asks for a second opinion i always give an opinion and I always call it the higher score. If it is that close, call it in. It is just a game after all. Great thread by the way.
Lucky you're not allowed second opinions any more then ;-)

[Milkovitsch]

If an archer who is calling the arrows asks for a second opinion i always give an opinion and I always call it the higher score. If it is that close, call it in. It is just a game after all. Great thread by the way.

Agree, in that if it's that close that you cannot tell either way then I would call it in. That's not the same as a judge calling it 'in', when there's color between the arrow and the line.

However, coming second to an archer who was 'given' an additional point or two is not quite right. The winner who benefited from the extra point is not going to give you his spot, is he? He called the judge so that he could get every point he could get away with, for the sole purpose of beating you, so why be so generous?

It is a a game, but being accurate is an important part of this game. It takes nothing away from the honour, goodwill, mateship etc of our sport; besides, to me archery is a battle against myself more that anything else, I have no interest in cheating myself. I wish to earn that 1400, not live knowing that it was really a 1399.

[Bia]

Guess next season I

[hoyt for life 2]

i was always told that you should never touch the target, but when a judge comes to call the arrow they always lean against the target. are they ment to?

[Jason.P]

i was always told that you should never touch the target, but when a judge comes to call the arrow they always lean against the target. are they ment to?
I believe if a judge touches the target or arrow the higher score is awarded.
As for my own arrow in a line call i will ask the group I'm shooting with and that usually sorts it out ,
as for other shooters i say it as i see it.

[Dan3D]

If it's my arrow that is close, I ask the group t call it.

I won't call my own arrow, and I'm happy to take what the group decides.

If I'm asked to call an arrow, I'll call it as it is. If it's in, it's in, if it's out, it's out.

I've never really understood why all the fuss - it's pretty easy to tell if it's in or out, and if it's so bloody close I'm really having trouble, then as far as I'm concerned it's in.

;)

I'm of the same opinion, that's exactly how I score it.

[2Dogs]

Depends if your shooting with 3 twits as to wether I take any notice of what they say :D

[Kuru]

if it's 99.99% out in all honesty it really should be called out. I'd like to see a 50/50% rule, Think how much cheaper a nationals would be if you didn't need to pay for judges flights/accomodation for events, sorry dad :lol:

[Action Man]

if it's 99.99% out in all honesty it really should be called out.

I disagree Kuru. If it's 0.01% in then it should be called in.
I tend to call on the lenient side for other archers but am fairly harsh on myself. I recently placed second in a tournament by 3 points so i might have to modify this and ease up on myself. :-?

[Kuru]

if it's 99.99% out in all honesty it really should be called out.

I disagree Kuru. If it's 0.01% in then it should be called in.
I tend to call on the lenient side for other archers but am fairly harsh on myself. I recently placed second in a tournament by 3 points so i might have to modify this and ease up on myself. :-?

If you blow 0.01% over the limit on a breathalizer you still get done ! Sorry but if most of your arrow is out how can you in good faith call it in ? I agree though if I have to call my arrow and it's iffy I'll call it out straight away, as you should !!! :o
It's either in our out no grey area IMO

[Oldtimer]

Sorry but if most of your arrow is out how can you in good faith call it in ?

Quite easily. In FITA, the lines are wholly contained within the higher scoring zone, so your arrow only has to touch the line for it to legitimately have the higher score.

[Kuru]

Sorry but if most of your arrow is out how can you in good faith call it in ?

Quite easily. In FITA, the lines are wholly contained within the higher scoring zone, so your arrow only has to touch the line for it to legitimately have the higher score.

Oldtimer while I do know the fita guidelines quite well, my old man is a fita judge so I get feedback straight away I honestly think it should be a 50/50 thing, that is it's either in or out, it would make things so much easier :D

[lewkowski]

i was always told that you should never touch the target, but when a judge comes to call the arrow they always lean against the target. are they ment to?
I believe if a judge touches the target or arrow the higher score is awarded.
As for my own arrow in a line call i will ask the group I'm shooting with and that usually sorts it out ,
as for other shooters i say it as i see it.

For FITA if a judge or competitor touches the target face or arrows etc, there is no rule that says the arrow is automatically awarded the higher value. The judge can only score the arrow as it lies.

If a competitor is warned about touching arrows/face etc and they continue to do it in a competition then they can be eliminated from the competion and will lose any position they have gained, under section 7.8.4 , 7.8.1.2 and 7.8.1.8 (this is for target but similar rules apply to other disciplines).

The above is quite important because there are lots of rules in FITA but not many penalties. What will usually happen is that someone will break a rule, they get warned (note no penalty, because the rule does not explicitly specify one), but if they continue to break the rules then they can be disqualified under rule 7.8.1.2/8, which pretty much catches anyone deliberately trying to get an unfair advantage.

When scoring arrows, the arrow should be deemed the higher value unless viewing from two directions it can clearly be seen as out. If it is unclear then should be called in.