A sad day for University Archery [Archive] - Archery Forum

Flehrad

10-12-2005, 12:25 AM

I am feeling rather sad, as the voting by the Family First senator has passed the government's VSU legislation, to be taken effectively July 1.

I know politics should not be discussed, so therefore moderators and admin above me can feel free to remove this thread, however, as it is directly related to the survival and existance of university archery, like USYD, and UNSW clubs, I think there is some relevance.

It's a bit late to bitch and moan, since it's pretty difficult to reverse the legislation once it's approved.

But, I shall predict quite a large funding drop in the amount we have. Yes yes, I can hear everyone say "now you'll be like the rest of the clubs around Australia, instead of bludging off." But, unlike a lot of people, students spend their time learning and studying. Time off, well, they could spend taking a job, but if they are working, then they can't be shooting, which means when they get full time jobs after they graduate, they probably won't really be in the mood to pick up a new activity like archery because they'll want to relax with something familiar after a week of work.

Small clubs, like UNSW will probably suffer more, as is, their club fees are 2x our fees because they have less funding than us. If they lose even more, than their 7 regular members might just completely dissapear.

We would no longer be able to support the 120 + plus members that shoot with us throughout the year, and from that, we have about 20 regulars. From that, we have 4-5 serious archers who will continue on after their studies.

It certainly paints a poor picture in terms of how we should be introducing the sport to young people and encouraging them to continue on with it.

Sure, the juniors have a pretty good program in some sense, but there will be a small void at the university level because their weekends will be more precious to them, and archery may be a lower priority than spending party time with new uni friend etc. Having week day training, on their campus would certainly be a method to keep their enthusiasm going.

But I digress.
What has been done is done. The next step is damage control.
We have sought corporate sponsorship many times in the last 4 years. Every single application was rejected upon the grounds of not enough exposure, not elite enough, not enough membership base (for information spreading/sales through club newsletters etc) and the reasons continue to stack.

Well, it's late, I'm upset, and if I could shoot (I can't because I'm on anti-malaria medication as I am going to India for a conference, and it makes me very prone to sunburn, so I have to stay out of the sun for 5 weeks) I'd photocopy a few politicians and use them for my 70m practice....

Brett k

10-12-2005, 03:52 PM

Why will Uni archery now be null and void? So you dont have the money that is srtipped from every student at your school, there are hundreds of archery clubs throughout Australia that dont need corporate funding. I know many uni archers that will be more than happy to continue there archery and pay shoot fees just like everyone else.
To make a comment like this thread can be removed now :o

Flehrad

10-12-2005, 06:29 PM

Sure, your point is valid. But the aspect I am concerned about is the initial participation. Many students who have never tried archery before baulk at the concept of paying $141 dollars to just give the sport a try, and if they don't like it, that's a rather expensive try-out price.

We have to charge that membership fee to the university because we are using university grounds. If we were to dissassociate from the university, we could just charge the AA/ANSW fee for insurance, but then it means we have to pay $400/hour to use the field we are on.

And then, if we dissassociate, the club is no more, as all of the equipment belongs to the university sporting body.

So, only those who have tried archery before, or are deadly serious, would be considering paying the $141 insurance, then our club fees.

Where as, we want to continue giving opportunities for as many people as possible to try the sport, let them develop into and continue shooting.

Pete

10-12-2005, 08:32 PM

Surely there is some kind of temporary player form that can be completed for uni students just wanting to try.

Flehrad

10-12-2005, 08:42 PM

AA/ANSW has, but for the university, no.

As 95% of our members are not affiliated with AA/ANSW, they are covered by the Uni sport only, and the university does not have temporary insurance cover.

frommy

03-02-2006, 01:08 PM

Don,

What is happening at the moment, and has there been any progress for the club?

Brian

Flehrad

04-02-2006, 12:20 AM

The current scenario is that because VSU starts in July, SU Sport can still charge compulsory fee's for the whole year. It's up to the students themselves to apply for their refund once July comes around.

Because of that, we are still getting funding from SU Sport, but it has been reduced from last year's amount by a substantial amount, which is quite understandable but it is enough that we can still operate on for now.

Next year will be the difficult one, as no-one knows exactl what will happen yet.

Eberbachl

04-02-2006, 08:50 AM

So, other than telling us that it will have an adverse effect on you, you've told us nothing about what VSU is.

...how 'bout it?

dbjac

04-02-2006, 11:12 AM

Volunteered student unionism, rather than paying a compulsory amenities fee (which is pooled, and carved up for all the clubs, unions, etc...), it is optional. Which obviously means noone (except maybe the weirdo arts students...) will pay the fee (its $230 something bucks per semester for me at monash! and more for others, like melbourne uni). Which means less/none goes to the clubs and unions, and eventually they will have to shut down..

Eberbachl

04-02-2006, 01:41 PM

So does that mean that it's currently compulsory to join the Student Union, and that it will become voluntary?

dbjac

04-02-2006, 06:26 PM

effectively, yes.

frommy

04-02-2006, 10:25 PM

Luke,

Dbjac has got it pretty well spot on. I don't know about Vic, but up here UniNSW has had an archery club, funded through the students union fees, for many years, and has been affiliated with ASNSW for a long time. RecurveBoy is a member of that club last I knew.

SinnyUni archery, until a few years ago, were also funded the same way, except that they had segregated male and female sports bodies, so were not permitted to affiliate with ASNSW/AA, on the basis that there was no sexual discrimination in AA archery between membership of males and females, and SinnyUni had male clubs and female clubs.

In about 2002, and Flehrad may correct me here, the SinnyUni sports were amalgamated, and the archers, through the efforts of Flehrad, Aarleks, Toxic Rabbit and others, were able to affiliate the club with ASNSW.

As Flehrad stated in his original post, they have up to 120 people involved at SinnyUni, and only about 10 or 12 of those would be members of ASNSW/AA. The whole system is very heavily subsidised through the student union payments.

My own club is a community club located on a campus of UWS, and we only have one student as a member, and that is BrettK who was a member for many years before going to Uni. We also have the head of the Psych faculty as a member, and as she is mad as a snake, she fits right in.

My point is that, as mentioned by Don in his original message, students may participate during the week, and have the weekends doing other things. Our club only formally shoots on Saturdays. SinnyUni have 120 people interested, with a few flowing in to the formal competitive ranks. This is at an age where most clubs are loosing members!

Our club is self funded, like most other clubs, but the two Uni clubs, who have enjoyed so much, for so long, will be in real trouble when the VSU kicks in.

Sorry for the long post.

Brian

Eberbachl

04-02-2006, 11:18 PM

OK,

So - it's sad that the Uni clubs may suffer with the introduction of voluntary Student Union membership.

Obviously I'm not up to speed with the whole situation, but on face value it seems good that people who chose not to participate won't be forced to contribute. I'm sure there are two sides to the story though - and I'm not about to engage in political debate.

But, why can't potential players use the AA temporary member form to try out archery, and pay the club a fee if they like it and wish to continue?

recurve boy

05-02-2006, 05:55 AM

But, why can't potential players use the AA temporary member form to try out archery, and pay the club a fee if they like it and wish to continue?

We can't even pay for facilities with funding! For USYD to get their field they'd have to pay $400/hr. The only UNSW field costs more to hire and the room we have for our indoor range costs us $10,000 a year. We provide 30% of that. What good is insurance?

I'm not trying to suggest that other students paying for my archery is a good thing (although it is :) ), but at UNSW and USYD (from what people have told me), student fees actually do get spent on worth while things. And while how the money should be spent is debatable, students fees, in principle should be kept. At the very least, the student fee should be kept until a better way is found.

Anyway, I'm just glad I am not a student anymore. It's probably going to be really boring from now on. What will happen to Oktober Fest!?

Flehrad

05-02-2006, 09:11 PM

In regards to the temporary AA membership to cover for insurance, SU Sport (USYD sports union) actually don't want us to use it because the insurance overage is too messy in terms of paperwork if someone does get hurt/ if an accident occurs.

Besides, the temporary membership is not useful in our situation as most new members won't get to shoot enough in the first few sessions to get a feel for the sport and I believe that the AA temp fee only covers for a very short term period.

Because we have a very large number of people at the start of the year joining, it is also not very feasible to be getting them to fill in forms and sending them to AA each session as it wastes time that we need to get people shooting.

Union fees, have good and bad. Those who don't engage in non academic activities are the ones that lose out and bitch about paying.
Until they realise, the toilets, food outlets, counciling services etc are paid by their union fees. And then they find out that the nice green fields they play lunchtime soccer, sit and have lunch on, trees that give them shade, are also looked after by their union fees..... The good side is that a lot of people will pay the fees because they use the facilities. And soon enough I guess, most people will realise exactly what they are missing out on.

frommy

05-02-2006, 09:11 PM

Marc,

The Unisearch House facility was great for the two State Indoors your club conducted some years ago, although I will put my hand up as contributing to one of the holes in the wall. :oops:

I hope that both Uni clubs can continue in the future.

Brian

recurve boy

06-02-2006, 08:31 AM

recurve boy

06-02-2006, 08:36 AM

Union fees, have good and bad. Those who don't engage in non academic activities are the ones that lose out and bitch about paying.
Until they realise, the toilets, food outlets, counciling services etc are paid by their union fees. And then they find out that the nice green fields they play lunchtime soccer, sit and have lunch on, trees that give them shade, are also looked after by their union fees..... The good side is that a lot of people will pay the fees because they use the facilities. And soon enough I guess, most people will realise exactly what they are missing out on.

If WA is anything to go by, I doubt this. I doubt most people have any idea what goes on at uni. Hell, the few poeple I've talked to who support VSU, don't have any idea what the money is used for at their own unis!

Brett k

08-02-2006, 08:27 AM

The Student union rep at my uni, tried to get us to all lobby to stop VSU by saying that "Well the union here sucks and doesnt do much for the students, but if we can stop VSU than well try to do more" an extra $500 a year to spend on uni and archery will do me just fine thanks. Syd uni and NSW may have a good union but I shure dont.

frommy

08-02-2006, 08:37 AM

Brett,

I think you will find that VSU money does not go into the UWS sports or other facilities that are run by UWSConnect. Totally different set-up to USyd and UNSW.

Brian

Flehrad

08-02-2006, 08:40 AM

It's a loaded debate, and that's why it's been bashed around for ages.

In respect to WA and their VSU, one of our members came from a uni in Perth, and he's told us his experience of the VSU bandwagon, and he thought it sucked balls bigtime.

I don't know what UNSW is doing regarding informing people about the effects of VSU, but at USYD, they've started with simple things, like putting labels on toilets "You never use the Union right? WRONG, you're using it RIGHT NOW". And union catering outlet prices are being shown between subsidised and non subsidised prices for non union members. I think the new students (ie, first years) next year will be the group that will pose the threat to the university as they have never experienced CSU, where as with current students who have experienced what uni is like, and then see what it will be like with VSU, many may pay and stay union.

Heaps of students use legal services here, centrelink support, lawyers etc, all for $400/year. Heck, paying that much for regular lawyers gets you not very far..... And that's just one example I know of.

Brett k

08-02-2006, 09:21 AM

Brian and Don
Thats what I ment to get across in my last post. Your fees are obviously going places that you will miss, and your union does a good job. Its just when our rep cant even give an example of were they go it makes you wonder.

frommy

08-02-2006, 01:49 PM

lawyers etc, all for $400/year. Heck, paying that much for regular lawyers gets you not very far

About 1 to 2 hrs actually! :wink: :D

whiz

06-07-2008, 04:08 PM

So, with three years to look back on, what DID happen to University archery?

Cartz

06-07-2008, 09:55 PM

So, with three years to look back on, what DID happen to University archery?

Hmm can't be too bad considering three of us are over here in Taiwan representing you guys...so...dry your eyes princess...

frommy

06-07-2008, 10:18 PM

However, Cartz, Flehrad was with Sydney Uni, and Recurve Boy with NSW Uni, both of whose clubs were solely funded by the VSU. That is what the question posed by Whiz is about IMO.

So you are at the Uni games in Taiwan? That is great. :thumb: How is it going? And, more importantly, how did you get funding? :confused:

:munch:

whiz

07-07-2008, 05:36 AM

dry your eyes princess...

Hope that this particular comment wasn't pointed at me because for one, it makes absolutely no sense. For two, it's a genuine question as I remember the doom and gloom situation and uproar when it was claimed what would happen when compulsory student unionism was stopped.
I don't know any uni students who would have been there for the transition and this is enough time to figure out if it really made much difference.

Archangel

07-07-2008, 07:01 AM

I was a student until about 18 months ago, and I got through without paying $400/year. I find it a bit hard to imagine that I'd have got $1600 worth back from it. Not that any of our student unions cost anything like that much - we've had VSU for some years, and they're all a lot cheaper (presumably providing less services too).

I don't expect that the student union would have given me anything particularly relevant to my archery anyway.

Cartz

07-07-2008, 08:03 AM

No whiz, it comment wasn't directed at you, you're right mate...it was directed at this thread, it just seemed somewhat self centred to call University Archery, JUST archery in VIC and NSW...you seem to be forgetting us banana benders...

To get funding, you really have to know the system. If you have sponsors, it makes things slightly easier. Our State Government awards grants of money to people representing the country overseas. My university, QUT, awards funding (Up to $1500) to those who are also in the same boat. All you need to do is write a letter or two. You don't need to hassle, just make the point that you're representing THEM, and they should have a hand in getting you there.

In my belief, the only University Archers that you will find, are those who are already involved in it through a club. Instead of forming a University CLUB, why no form a group that visits regularly to one of the local established clubs? It's not that hard and would probably be cheaper to just organize a group bus to and from.

Archery is not yet established enough to make University Clubs a thing. Not like the USA where it's abundant. First, we need to concentrate on the face of archery in Australia, the issue of retaining members and getting them to compete, THEN moving into education institutions such as High Schools and Universities. We seem to want to make clubs willy nilly, and spread out those who are already interested instead of having them congregate in one area. I believe the latter is a more stable option for the sport in australia at this point of time.

Flehrad

07-07-2008, 04:52 PM

Well, I'm not really involved anymore at the university scene so I probably shouldn't really be the person to comment (or moderate this board either) but University clubs do have a place as a source of generating interest and new blood to the sport. The situation though does depend upon the university and their attitude towards sport.

At Sydney University, there is a very strong tradition and belief in the importance of sport and involvement in the student experience and Sydney Uni Sport & Fitness (our sporting organisation) was very involved in the VSU battle due to this. Our club receives a lot of funding still (eg we don't pay oval hire which I've been told is $400/h to non uni people, and we have enough to buy new target faces, arrows, replace bows, pay rego fees etc), and with their resources we have a lot of people who find out about archery through our club and SUSF. When I was still handling the public contact, I would get at least one call or email a week with people asking about how to join our club, which we would often have to send people to other clubs nearby because our shooting sessions were not feasible for them (since we shoot weekdays during working hours). This is possible because people who look for a sport, or browse through the sports available at Sydney Uni see Archery, and then ask for further details.

In regards to the transition, it is visible. We used to have about 60-80 members pre-VSU, people joined many clubs and got involved. They may not have affiliated or competed, but they enjoyed shooting on the social level and having a good time. Post-vsu, our club has about 35 members last I knew of. The cost to join is actually less now than it was before, but the difference is the education of where the money is for. Pre-vsu, it was a bundled one fee. You paid it with your uni fees, and you never got asked to shell out after enrolment. Now, even though it is less (at least for us), you have to pay fees here, there, at the start of the year, some time later etc. It is very confusing to some, and then to others they baulk at paying so many fees, to which, they may have paid more in the past but it was a once-off cost that was rolled as part of 'enrolment'. If that made any sense.

Uni clubs are small and inbetween. UNSW club has been revived this year from what I know, and Sydney Uni is still operating. We have no uni championships, we have no uni games. The event we had hoped to run last year was ruined by the terrible storms as it washed the grounds at Erina out and organisation fell apart. Sponsorship is difficult, I know from personal experience as in the 8 years I was involved, the only sponsorship I got was from Archery companies, and Nudie, no other businesses wanted to be involved. We just have to keep trying, and take advantage of successes like in Sydney with Simon, Athens with Tim, and hopefully Beijing with Mikey, Matt, Lexie & Co, where more interest is generated and inspires younger generations and uni aged people to want to get involved.

As for saying organising a group of people to shoot at other clubs, we have had that happen too, our dedicated shooters, competitive shooters visit other clubs on weekends and get more shooting in, I used to shoot at uni and Northern, along with two other members, and we also have members who shoot at SOPA and at our club, but the focus of our club is to promote the sport, not to be competitive, since without people who enjoy shooting, you'll just never get people to compete.

I have paid my union fees every year in the 9 years I have been at Sydney Uni, and I have not regretted once cent of it. I have been involved in Archery for 8 years, Kendo for 1.5 years (and still going), Fencing for 2 years and Rifle shooting for 3 years. Rifle folded because of lack of membership due to costs rising in ammunition and loss of funding thanks to VSU, it died on it's 98th birthday which was very sad to see that it didn't reach it's milestone birthday of 100. The cost for Fencing has also gone up too, and Kendo also. People will always grumble about fees, but it really does come to educating people where the money goes, and then they will generally shut up about it.

Just as an example, since I am now concentrating on Kendo, we pay $90/year (Club Fee) + $55/year SUSF Fee (once off regardless of how many clubs you join), but hall hire is $60/h. We have 6hrs of training a week, which $360/week, we train 42 weeks/year approximately. That comes to $15k/year in hall hire alone. We would need 160 or so people to join up to pay that. Without SUSF funding, it wouldn't be possible. With SUSF funding, we exist as the Australian Uni Games Champions, 3 years in a row now I believe, against UNSW, Melbourne Uni, ANU, UoC, and other uni's with Kendo. But, Kendo is even less mainstream with less clubs in Australia than Archery...... So, ... why isn't there Archery at AUG's? Because there are not enough uni clubs........ The problem is a deep and complex one, and in some ways, I am glad that I'm not mired in it LOL :p

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop since I think I've stopped making sense a little while back..

Cartz

07-07-2008, 05:30 PM

Why is it, that there is a complete and total emphasis on getting this to work. To whinge on here, won't make a lick of difference.

Sure, you can kick and scream, and hopefully some result will eventuate in your favor...but...why not do the logical thing, cut your losses, make your time more valuable and use it to invest in ways to improve our established clubs.

Archery is spreading too thin. And to blame your current issue on a bit of rain and 'disorganization', which, for your information is incorrect. It did not eventuate due to a lack of INTEREST.

I'll step back a bit, and draw and lovely crayola coloured picture for you, improve archery in our clubs ---> improve archery in the country ---> move into education institutions.

You don't pick up a bow and expect a 1300, no, in REALITY, you get a 1200, and have plenty of room to improve on. Take it as a life lesson.

PS: World Limits Only Apply To Assignments...not Posts...so there's no need to waffle and try and fill the space.

Hannah

07-07-2008, 06:04 PM

PS: World Limits Only Apply To Assignments...not Posts...so there's no need to waffle and try and fill the space.

Actually, world limits apply to physics...

frommy

07-07-2008, 07:57 PM

Carz,

I think your reply to Flehrad overly harsh. I have known the bloke for quite a few years now, and he has been in the past a very hard worker at getting archery at Sydney Uni working, along with Aarleks who no longer participates.

Archery NSW did not even know about the sport being participated in at SydU until about 2002, and the two above named blokes got the club affiliated with them, and started getting members to compete in the sport, rather than just throw a few sticks around at the uni facilities.

Sydney Uni has/had an old English style system of Uni clubs, and they could do nothing about that, but they did get recognition for the club with ASNSW.

Great to hear from you again, Flehrad. Are you up to shooting a FITA Field at our club at UWS Campbelltown end September, and/or State Field end of October? ;)

:munch:

Hue

07-07-2008, 09:28 PM

part of the problem with uni. archery is the same problem with archery in general, lack of exposure. i'm currently at Deakin uni studying psych part time and my uni was more than happy to assist me me in setting up an archery club (read that to mean "me") but I for one, am very happy that compulsary unionism was disbanded, no more trips for the boys to Hanoi, Tripoli or Moscow (Beijing these days). the money now gets spent where appropriate.

Hue

Flehrad

07-07-2008, 09:38 PM

It's ok, he can be as harsh as he wants.

Our club started in 1963, died in 1965, revived in 1978 or so, died again not soon after, then revived in 1997 or so to which I joined in 1999 and have carried until March 2008 when I handed the reins over to younger and capable hands.

Aarleks and another club member who used to shoot at Sydney Bowmen got the whole gig going but we needed 4 members to affiliate, so I joined in the fray with another club member, and that is when I started to shoot and compete on the serious side of the fence. Back then, our memberships were fluctuating everywhere but we were getting 100+ yearly.

"Archery is spreading too thin. And to blame your current issue on a bit of rain and 'disorganization', which, for your information is incorrect. It did not eventuate due to a lack of INTEREST."

Well, that isn't true. There was interest, and we had all of our regular members interested and I conveyed this to the person who was the convenor for the event. I kept in contact and kept pushing for it but when the storms pushed the original competition off at Erina, I don't know what happened afterwards. They even told me it would be rescheduled for after exams at the end of the year but nothing happened. I offered to help since SUAC has run State Indoor twice, and AUC's twice, but they didn't take it up. Someone else may have said there wasn't enough interest, but that isn't true from SUAC's perspective, you can ask anyone in the club who was in the club back then about our interest levels.

I have a habit of waffling, call it PhD syndrome when you write a 214p thesis in 2 months LOL....

Frommy, I've pretty much shelved my bow for the last year or so, I have no idea what it'd be like to pick up right now.... I just started back on the path of Kendo in January and it being the martial art that it is, requires pretty much my full mental and physical attention. I am not sad to have placed archery on hold since I obtained the goals I had set for myself (my uni blue hehe) but once I reach my goals for Kendo, I may come back :D

Cartz

07-07-2008, 10:45 PM

Carz,

I think your reply to Flehrad overly harsh. I have known the bloke for quite a few years now, and he has been in the past a very hard worker at getting archery at Sydney Uni working, along with Aarleks who no longer participates.

Good observation! Too bad all that work went to waste. Just imagine if his great skills were put to use elsewhere.

Also, Erina wasn't responsible for the running of the games. The University was merely using the grounds. An offer that was overly generous. It seems somewhat unfair that theres some downtalk happening in regards to the club, where in reality it seems that all the work was offloaded to them.

frommy

07-07-2008, 11:07 PM

Cartz,

I don't in anyway see that Erina was put down in any of the previous posts. :confused:

Flehrad

07-07-2008, 11:35 PM

I kept in contact and kept pushing for it but when the storms pushed the original competition off at Erina, I don't know what happened afterwards. They even told me it would be rescheduled for after exams at the end of the year but nothing happened.

Erina are a fantastic club, we have hosted multiple EUC/EUAG's there in the past, so I certainly haven't got anything to say that is bad about them at all.... All I said was the storms stopped the event being held at Erina.... I don't think any of the work was offloaded to anyone which is probably where the problem was, just one person trying to organise and I know how difficult that can be.

Cartz

08-07-2008, 01:07 AM

Hmm...must be reading between the lines too much these days

Bottom Dweller

08-07-2008, 01:35 PM

All I said was the storms stopped the event being held at Erina....

Just to clarify. Newcastle University Archery club were organising this event not Erina Archery Club. Erina was approached by Newcastle Uni club to use their grounds and facilities for the event and Erina was pleased to do so.

The event was cancelled/postponed due to storm damage at the Newcastle Uni campus causing flooding of the building hosting the sports associations systems and records.

I'm sure Erina club would be more that happy to offer its grounds and facilities again if approached to do so for a similar University Games event.

toxic_rabbit

15-07-2008, 01:24 PM

WARNING long post ahead (if walls offend)

A brief history of my time at USYD Archery 03-07. I joined, Alex, Don and Dan Bray were my first points of contact, the joining fee was like $10, probably $5 actually. We were shooting on The Square (In the middle of uni). O-week was actually a week and VSU didn’t exist. Life was good, the sky’s were clearer, petrol was 70c/ltr

Now(ish)
The fees are about $85, the club shoots on St Paul’s Oval, O-week is 2 days. Petrol is 1.50+/ltr, the sky’s are full of carbon dioxide and the environment is going to kill us all >.<

In its heyday, SUAC did not have to worry about insurance, affiliation, competing, shooting or the need for bows even. It was much more of a social event to come down and chill at the square, drink coffee and talk bull... much in the same way that the most successful club at uni, subski, has about 12 ppl that actually ski while having like 5000 members. At this point SUAC had about 150 members on the books. The way the sports union divided its funding up was simply as a refection of your members, more members, more funding.

At the point I joined there was a push for us to affiliate, and compete, the competitions had started, affiliations were through Sydney Bowmen. Those who could shoot in comps could do so. Then in the effort to make the club more archery focused as opposed to throwing knife and coffee focused, the move was made to St Paul’s. This, coupled with the demise of O-week essentially split off the social hangers on aspect. The membership was cut too 1/5th overnight almost and the fees were raised soon after as a result of VSU (largely)

Was there ways to avoid this, most certainly.

Did it require effort, most definitely.

Can you blame VSU, not entirely

Clubs at Uni wax and wain, its part of the fact that students aren’t supposed to be at uni forever, someone else has to take up the reins and there’s not always someone there. The choice to have more committed shooters and less “hangers on” was perhaps not a great one for numbers, but that is my opinion and not a dig at anyone. What would you rather have? 150 people who cant shoot, don’t all have access to bows and destroy gear in that way that new archers do so. OR 12 ppl who will most likely affiliate with ANSW and AA and actually shoot in competition.

I would also not agree with the lack of interest statement, it is more like lack of focus. The interest is always there. Archery is a cool sport, but due to the litigation age, it is harder and harder to actually do it. It is also expensive. So to make the jump for someone from onlooker “come and try” to “go buy $200-5000” worth of gear is a big one to expect from students. Focus, how do you focus the interest of the people to get them to stick around and adopt the sport.

Again the trouble with the Uni club it’s the fluid member base, this is an established club but its members will always go off to other clubs after they are finished with uni because it’s not actually that convenient to shoot at 1-5pm tues an fri when you are working. The uni club would be better off sponsored by another Sydney club as a breeding ground for archers not dissolved as Cartz seems to suggest at one point. We can be quite a capable club when we put our minds to it re. The state indoor ‘04 ’05.

To Cartz:

Actually, reading back, I’m not sure what you want to suggest Cartz? To dissolve or to stay? To be a club or to just join somewhere else?

As far as bussing off to another club why? The grounds are awesome at USYD why would they want to go elsewhere? Unless it’s on weekends, when most of the serious shooters did that anyway.

Word limit – A fixed maximum length to a given document

If you were going to be curt about Don’s large post you could have said “please keep your responses short and to the point” it would have made more sense.

You do have some valid ideas, even if you seem to contradict yourself, but the rudeness towards Don is not really necessary.

Hi Brian and Don, and yes I am yet again trying to get back into it. (I will attempt to not break my arm horribly this time)

Rob

Flehrad

15-07-2008, 01:37 PM

:rofl:

Nice one Rob :thumb:

I still itch to shoot, but I'm attempting to focus on my more martial aspects. I am sure though I will be back too in the future, after all, that 42 year old Japanese guy took out Silver at the Olympics means I still have a chance one day ;)

Cartz

15-07-2008, 06:55 PM

To Cartz:

Actually, reading back, I’m not sure what you want to suggest Cartz? To dissolve or to stay? To be a club or to just join somewhere else?

As far as bussing off to another club why? The grounds are awesome at USYD why would they want to go elsewhere? Unless it’s on weekends, when most of the serious shooters did that anyway.

Word limit – A fixed maximum length to a given document

If you were going to be curt about Don’s large post you could have said “please keep your responses short and to the point” it would have made more sense.

You do have some valid ideas, even if you seem to contradict yourself, but the rudeness towards Don is not really necessary.

Hi Brian and Don, and yes I am yet again trying to get back into it. (I will attempt to not break my arm horribly this time)

Rob

I suggest, keep the club, affiliate with an established club. Don't be pig headed and keep pushing for Archery at Uni...we should take a step back and take note that there are greater political problems happening inside our established clubs. Your comment 'why move if our grounds are fine', seems to back that up...my reasons for you to move...

1) Archery is already spread too thing.

2) The initial setup of the club was strong, yet has failed in recent times and needs re-evaluating.

3) Established clubs are having issues with member numbers as is.

I never once contradicted myself.

Yeah, i could've said something else mate, but i didn't...don't lecture me, i have bosses and lecturers for that.

My rudeness towards Don was based on the view that it seems, once again, there is another person too focussed towards their own goals. I would love my Uni to have a full archery club. But we aren't America. How about finding ways of achieving our goals, by making one step back for two steps forwards.

Don, you have good ideas mate...i consider Don a mate of mine, and my rudeness on an online forum has almost no personal backup. Winning an argument on the internet is like being the smartest kid in the world with Down Syndrome. Hence the reason why i place no emotional emphasis in what i write.

Flehrad

15-07-2008, 10:14 PM

Well, we have never had enough full interest in the past to be affiliated fully with a club locally. I know that many years ago, UNSW had some kind of agreement with Sydney Bowmen. I don't know what the full details of their agreement was, but it worked well for them because their primary shooting times were in the evening and only indoors. Our club never really needed other grounds for distance like UNSW did since we have the full 90m range available to us. However, a good number, do associate affiliate with other clubs like SOPA (when they used to do that), Northern Archers, as well as visit other clubs like Burilda, St George, Camden Valley etc.

We could consolidate our membership with another club, but that just raises costs for the students, who yes, are a very sensitive and stingy bunch. We would then also probably lose the good amount of funding because our sporting body would try and pike out of it LOL, by saying it's not their responsibility since the club is no-longer run by the university bodies.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing either on this, but uni students, and even school (primary and high) students are a minefield of potential disasters when it comes to clubs and sports. Our goal was to promote the sport. That is it. We do that really well I think. Every week, even though I am no longer the club contact officially, I still get phone calls asking about archery and how to get involved. I also know that our official club contact also gets that. We actually send away about 80% of these people to other clubs because they can't shoot during our weekday sessions. But we promote other clubs, clubs closest to them.

Our social members once they leave uni have had the experience of archery, and if they chose to continue, join other clubs where-ever they end up. At least, in the 4-5 years that I was leading the club, this is what we were about, promoting the sport, getting people involved. Competing is a bonus at our club. In a 3 year period if we get someone to join up in 1st year, we may be lucky to get 50% of them considering a competition by the end of their 2nd year with us, and 20% competing by the end of 3rd year is doing fantastic because for most of them, they want to focus on their studies. They didn't come to uni to be professional sports people, you'll find those who do are the ones who will end up at other clubs, and the AIS on their own steam, which is fantastic, and at least from my point of view, we don't need to facilitate them, but rather the grass roots level, to get people wanting to come and shoot, but still nudging competition and getting out to other clubs.

Our club doesn't have greater political problems. That is because the executive normally moves a lot as students come and go. I am a rare oddity having spent 9 years at the club, with almost every year being on the exec, and holding presidency for a considerable time since I did undergrad, masters and PhD. Perhaps if the problem is political within established clubs, and within established state/national governing bodies, then something needs to be done about that. If 'corruption' is occurring, or people are entrenching themselves in positions of power and their leadership in their clubs and directions are stale/stagnant to the point of their club decaying, then something should be looked at with that issue. Fixed terms of office with no repeats? More accountability ? I don't know. I'm not trying to turn the spotlight away from uni level archery on this issue, but since you make a point of politics, I know politics has reared its ugly head in NSW before with much dissatisfaction from some people :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I know you're not dissing me ^^ These kinds of debates always get easily mis-interpreted...... been there, done that. Its all good.

toxic_rabbit

16-07-2008, 01:36 AM

Hence the reason why i place no emotional emphasis in what i write.

Perhaps you would do yourself a favour and read what you write before offending more, because your tone leaves no room for misinterpretation and being rude is fairly emotional.

As for the club/archery/uni club/etc.

I really agree with some of your points, well, possibly one, the member issue, but dissolving clubs and amalgamating them is not a very favourable solution. The difference between an affiliated club and a non affiliated one is basically all down to insurance. I personally would rather be covered by SU sport and AA/ANSW at the small annoyance it takes to affiliate.

The issue you seem to misunderstand with this “we are spread too thin” is that we do not have enough members, not that we have too many clubs. Amalgamating a whole swath of smaller clubs together is a quite violent thing to do. The little families that are our archery clubs like the way they are and the way they operate, it gives us diversity. Not to mention options. Which one would you rather? Three full clubs that are spread so far apart that they take a two hour commute to get to or 10 clubs that mean you are usually 30 minutes from one? As far as insurance goes it is not an option for public clubs to just be a club and affiliate elsewhere. Is the lesser club supposed to upkeep its grounds and not be affiliated, no of course not, its not fiscally irresponsible for a club to have two venues. What if the club can have insurance through other means, ie. University union insurance. This would mean they can survive anyway, but why would they not affiliate on there own?

How about the options to shoot at more than one venue, the reality is not all people like each other and frankly its nice to have the option to go to a different place to shoot if you want.

What you are suggesting here is downsizing. All it leads to is the collapse of the sport. People don’t downsize businesses that they want to save, they downsize they ones they want to dissolve. Again the problem is not that we are spread to thin, it is that we do not have enough members. You want to fix the sport, go put a bow in someone’s hand. Tell them how to use it, nurture there ego, get them to keep coming, take some money off them, rinse and repeat. If there were more people out there who did this, the sport would grow. And thanks to the staying power of our little clubs, we will have the infrastructure to support it.

Now I know Don has recruited a hefty few, I have also tried to lend a hand, how about you put your money where your mouth is, as opposed to your foot.

Winning an argument on the internet is like being the smartest kid in the world with Down Syndrome.

You defend yourself so vehemently? Does that make you the one with Down Syndrome? But then, your still the smartest kid in the world? I clearly must be missing something.

Cartz

16-07-2008, 11:24 AM

Perhaps you would do yourself a favour and read what you write before offending more, because your tone leaves no room for misinterpretation and being rude is fairly emotional.

As for the club/archery/uni club/etc.

I really agree with some of your points, well, possibly one, the member issue, but dissolving clubs and amalgamating them is not a very favourable solution. The difference between an affiliated club and a non affiliated one is basically all down to insurance. I personally would rather be covered by SU sport and AA/ANSW at the small annoyance it takes to affiliate.

The issue you seem to misunderstand with this “we are spread too thin” is that we do not have enough members, not that we have too many clubs. Amalgamating a whole swath of smaller clubs together is a quite violent thing to do. The little families that are our archery clubs like the way they are and the way they operate, it gives us diversity. Not to mention options. Which one would you rather? Three full clubs that are spread so far apart that they take a two hour commute to get to or 10 clubs that mean you are usually 30 minutes from one? As far as insurance goes it is not an option for public clubs to just be a club and affiliate elsewhere. Is the lesser club supposed to upkeep its grounds and not be affiliated, no of course not, its not fiscally irresponsible for a club to have two venues. What if the club can have insurance through other means, ie. University union insurance. This would mean they can survive anyway, but why would they not affiliate on there own?

How about the options to shoot at more than one venue, the reality is not all people like each other and frankly its nice to have the option to go to a different place to shoot if you want.

What you are suggesting here is downsizing. All it leads to is the collapse of the sport. People don’t downsize businesses that they want to save, they downsize they ones they want to dissolve. Again the problem is not that we are spread to thin, it is that we do not have enough members. You want to fix the sport, go put a bow in someone’s hand. Tell them how to use it, nurture there ego, get them to keep coming, take some money off them, rinse and repeat. If there were more people out there who did this, the sport would grow. And thanks to the staying power of our little clubs, we will have the infrastructure to support it.

Now I know Don has recruited a hefty few, I have also tried to lend a hand, how about you put your money where your mouth is, as opposed to your foot.

You defend yourself so vehemently? Does that make you the one with Down Syndrome? But then, your still the smartest kid in the world? I clearly must be missing something.

You call this defending? Meh...i really couldn't care less. You're the one with the long rebuttal...

Read Don's last line of his last post and take some advice...Or...come to Queensland and we can have a few words if you feel that...emotional...

And in regards to your first line...if anyone is offended, please put their hands up...and i will personally apologize.

Flehrad

16-07-2008, 01:45 PM

I think I'm nicely in the middle having been a QLD'er for most of my life, but then living down south for the last decade :silly:

Cartz

16-07-2008, 01:54 PM

I think I'm nicely in the middle having been a QLD'er for most of my life, but then living down south for the last decade :silly:

Too bad we lost ya! We're in need of some recurvers...and i want an axis :P

mike

16-07-2008, 02:04 PM

OMG! What a debate!

The best thing about the old days is that it kept uni students in uni. Now, sheesh, never hear the end of them!!

;)

Flehrad

16-07-2008, 03:30 PM

Too bad we lost ya! We're in need of some recurvers...and i want an axis :P

I got two of em... Fade fade blue and a black one. :archer:

Cartz

16-07-2008, 03:42 PM

I got two of em... Fade fade blue and a black one. :archer:

You bastard...i want a black one...Fade blue? Robbies? You still got that one? She must be an oldie by now

Flehrad

16-07-2008, 04:12 PM

Yeap, she's getting on in years but still shoots beautifully.
My black one is actually literally gathering dust in my room with some FX limbs on it but I don't really feel like parting with it yet, once I am more strapped for cash being the unemployed bum I still am, I might put it on market if I need money.... then you might have a chance of getting one. :rofl:

But, this is starting to digress from the thread.

We all have our opinions in regards to how things should work, and how things should be done. We also have quite valid points because they come from different angles on addressing the issue.

We could easily agree to disagree, but it does not solve the issue, however in the current position, it isn't one that can be resolved because I'm not in charge of a uni club any more, Toxic isn't either, so our beloved club will do what the current members direct it to do. The turf on which our opinions are based on is in NSW, while Cartz, is in QLD.

We already know that there are plenty of differences between the two regions in non-archery related things, so it is no different in Archery. The people I have met from up yonder at times have made me wish I got involved when I still lived there, and I can tell there is a huge difference in style and personalities compared to the good folk that I have had the pleasure of working with and shooting with over the years down here. This reflects deeply in how the clubs are run and exist here, and politics is also part of that. Consider that there is 30 clubs registered with ANSW right now, and ~14 of these clubs are easily accessible within about an hour of most suburbs in decent traffic, why is there so many clubs? People want variety?, people want something to get involved with?, there isn't enough space and facilities for larger clubs? Running big organisations is a big deal....

Downsizing is one thing, consolidation is another. You can downsize a consolidated ground, corporate style, so merge two small clubs and chop some admin in the exec. The result though is the 'new' admin will have more workload to do to look after the larger number of members have. Much more difficult to do efficiently and effectively, and in some cases, those poor exec won't be able to shoot at all because they are spending their free time looking after the club matters. Sure, working bees and all that get things done but many people often don't know how much things can go wrong easily when running organisations if one or two things get behind and things pile up.

Club grounds is an issue. Not all clubs are the 24/7 variety. The few that are, are lucky, but if you consolidate other clubs into them, they may not be able to fit. For example, I used to shoot at Northern regularly at my peak shooting regime. When they hold events, they have a maximum capacity figure. They just can't accommodate any more even if they wanted to. Sydney Uni has 5 targets currently, we use 3 on a regular basis. Northern have 12 permanent butts, plus ones they can put inbetween. On a very busy day there, they will have two taken up by beginners courses, a gap for safety, and anywhere up to 6-7 targets in use from all distances. If you threw in just a handful of members, like Sydney Uni archers, well that would then swell the busy day to 10 targets + 2 beginners targets, and no safety gap target...... Which then means if you had another smaller club consolidate into Northern, you would have to wait to shoot? Or not shoot at all if the shooting line is full?..... Which is another sticky problem. Sydney clubs may face ground size problems more than QLD clubs do. I don't say NSW clubs because I'm sure Erina, Neath, Bathurst, etc, those further out from the suburbs dont' have these same issues. As is, Sydney Uni only gets half a oval while they play touch footy, golf, ultimate frisbee, fly fishing, model aeroplane, whatever on the other side....

Just more things to throw into the issue, which is why it can be such a mess when you start to talk merging clubs...

Cartz

16-07-2008, 04:41 PM

You're right, i was more talking about consolidating rather than downsizing. For example, in a struggling club, try abolishing the club and become members of another to build the face of archery up to a point where universities are willing and able to promote archery as a prime sport.

Perhaps some reliance on our performance at the Olympics is needed, much like our performance at the Soccer (ahem, Football) World Cup.

There's nothing i would love more than to have a Uni Archery Club.

How are other clubs at your universities, with similar variables (member size, sport profile etc.) run? Perhaps a model should be made.

Brendan

Flehrad

16-07-2008, 05:05 PM

There isn't much communication on how the clubs are run between clubs LOL

We have our usual exec, Pres, Vice Pres, Sec, Treas, Equipment, Publicity, Committee members etc. They meet during training, monies are collected directly by our university sporting body SUSF. We don't handle much cash at all except for fundraising chocolates etc. SUSF have constitutional requirements such as minimum numbers (20) to keep a club running, and we have to provide a minimum of 25% of our funding from our membership including fees/fundraising, so if we raise $1k in a uni year, the following year, they will consider providing us $3k from their coffers. Our finances are kept by SUSF, purchases for equipment, affiliation subsidies, any non-cash expenditure is processed through forms/documentation in the form of invoices/receipts through SUSF (they do EFT to vendors/coaches). Besides that, we have pretty good free reign.

We have to submit budgets for the year past and year to come (income and expenditures, expected incomes and expected expenditures) as well as equipment inventories, a annual report on club activities and performances, as well as 3 and 5 year plans. Club delegates have to attend SUSF committee meetings so they know what is going on in the main body that may affect the clubs such as facilities improvements or funding/proceedural changes. These meetings are typically 1/quarter or so as well as the SUSF AGM and any Extra-ordinary AGMs like during the VSU and SUSU/SUSWSA mergers.

The club can choose to have as many or as little official meetings as they like as long as they have their AGM before the SUSF AGM and submit the new office bearers and any changes to their constitution to the SUSF board for approval before the SUSF AGM approves them.

Besides that, it's pretty much smooth sailing since insurance and other logistics are handled by SUSF. Which, is one reason as Toxic said, staying at a Uni Club and keeping a Uni Club is a lot easier/nicer than a non-uni club ;)

toxic_rabbit

17-07-2008, 10:55 AM

Flehrad

17-07-2008, 12:01 PM

The Olympics are a great way to publicise the sport, unfortunately in the past we have not taken any real advantage of this. Simon won gold, but in truth he's not a great fan of the media. Tim, a Bronze, did do a fair amount of school appearances and was keen to try to get as much out of it as he could, a great improvement.
Archery as a small sport always holds itself back, we don’t get TV coverage unless someone is winning etc.

Don’t forget this argument has been had hundreds of times and there is always the ones who don’t actually want the sport to expand, and trust me they are there, the ones who like the fact they get gold in their division because they are the only one there. This is the sort of negative problem enthusiastic up and comers run into once they get high enough in the sport to see over the top of the political wall.

Members are the key, not consolidation, an increase in numbers as opposed to a decrease in clubs, trust me, getting people to give up their club is going to be a whole lot harder than getting them to get more people to join it.

Oh I have an axis too :p

Firstly, when Simon won in 2000, we had a massive spike in numbers and we didn't do anything to promote ourselves. They came on their own accord LOL. When Tim won Bronze in Athens, we had a lot of inquiries into the club, and a very small swell of numbers. Yes, we do have to take advantage of these events, but we also have to consider retention of members.

Increasing numbers/expanding and people opposed to it... I have seen glimpses of that but not really enough to comment, so I won't =)

And, your axis is a lefty, no good to Cartz lest he chuck a Adam Bridges and swaps hands.... I think Cartz is right handed.....:rofl:

Cartz

17-07-2008, 01:58 PM

Firstly, when Simon won in 2000, we had a massive spike in numbers and we didn't do anything to promote ourselves. They came on their own accord LOL. When Tim won Bronze in Athens, we had a lot of inquiries into the club, and a very small swell of numbers. Yes, we do have to take advantage of these events, but we also have to consider retention of members.

Increasing numbers/expanding and people opposed to it... I have seen glimpses of that but not really enough to comment, so I won't =)

And, your axis is a lefty, no good to Cartz lest he chuck a Adam Bridges and swaps hands.... I think Cartz is right handed.....:rofl:

Nah im goofy-handed mate!

Flehrad

17-07-2008, 03:24 PM

Really?
Lucky you then, just go knock Toxic's arms a bit so he can't shoot and you'll have your axis :rofl:

frommy

17-07-2008, 08:35 PM

Meanwhile, back at our club with permanent facilities on the campus of Uni Western Sydney, Campbelltown NSW, we, as a community club, have three student members, two of whom were archers before going to UWS, with the one who wasn't studying on a different campus, and one lecturer, also from a different campus. Both of the latter two expressed interest in archery and did not know we were situated on Uni grounds! :confused:

As Don and Rob know, our club is a normal club, run by people who work, and our archery is at weekends. We have had some students come and express interest, but they want something to do during the week, with their weekends taken up by other things.

We did have one guy though that we started to help, but he was deported after he threatened Uni admin staff and the Uni then found that he was learning to use a compound bow he had purchased. :o

In regard to O-week, we participated in the first one held after our move to UWS Campbelltown, with some of our members taking time off work to do so. The result was about 50 expressions of interest, which we later found out led to absolutely nothing, except that Uni sport were giving out lollies for newbies signing up to sports, and one of our members had a set of compound sights knocked off. :( Needless to say we have not participated in O-week since.

Cartz, I do not know what Uni you are at in Qld, but you should appreciate that the nature of USyd and UNSW may be very different to what you are familiar with. It is certainly very different from what happens with the UWS sport clubs. Those two Uni's had traditionally been structured on the English uni model IMO, and that is where the VSU was so strongly supporting the sport clubs.

The clubs within UWS did not seem to have that same problem as sport was not funded from VSU as I understand it. It is a Dawkins uni after all. But, hey, we now have a medical school!

And as an aside, I have just been able to get the Uni to pay for an all weather road down to our archery facilities. :) That would have set them back about $5k. :thumb:

This is our target course:

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=campbelltown+nsw&ie=UTF8&ll=-34.076003,150.784843&spn=0.002391,0.006094&t=h&z=18

Our field course starts around the dam. Not bad for a Uni facility, but, unfortunately the land we use for the field is slotted to be the great UWS town in the future. :(

Sorry to ramble, and good to see both you, Don and Rob, still around.

Brian

Cartz

17-07-2008, 08:49 PM

That's a pretty cool target course...

frommy

17-07-2008, 09:12 PM

Thanks Cartz. It certainly is but the field course, which we can only get access to infrequently, is even better. :thumb:

I just realised that the vehicle in the photo is a ute and is reversed in, therefore equals Mike. Shadow at the 60m line shows him shooting and shadows also indicate that it is early morning. The bugger has been getting extra practice in! :p

We changed the staggered shooting line about 14 months ago to a straight line, and moved the 90m line back behind the main shooting line on the bottom side of the course. We also purchased the green container about 18 months ago to use a club house.

The dark green patch in front of the butts, behind the main line of butts, is our landing zone for clout for which we can very easily get 180m.

We pay no rent to the Uni, but have to do all of our own maintenance, except for the recent road improvements paid for by the uni. Most of the land used for the field course is owned by Landcom, and that is another political problem, but we mostly do not have to worry about uni politics as the land our target course is on is under the control of UWSConnect who run all student services here. I would hate to have to deal with uni chancellors offices, having had very negative experiences with them in the past.

Oh, and we have also now erected a 15m x 6m awning structure out and over the green container, and up to the other container.

So, Cartz, if you happen to be in NSW for either of the last weekends in September or October, please come and shoot either of our Macarthur Field or the NSW Field that we are running. ;)

http://www.archerynsw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=402&Itemid=92

A tempter. :D