What's wrong with tournaments??

[Marcus]

While some comps this year have had huge turnouts others are not doing very well. Weather is a factor but in general turn outs seem to be lower.
There was only 9 targets for the Monash Trophy this year and there were next to no juniors at the Whitehorse trophy.
About 7 years ago the Jnr Diamond Pile use to attract about 40 juniors and the senior about 80 seniors. Now we are lucky to get 20 to the senior one.

Clubs can sit around all day coming up with theories why people are not attending their comp. One of the reasons for poor turn out to events by DVA archers have been due to not recieving the forms (happened at least twice this year). While we too didn't get our forms out with enough warning.

So what would people like to see at a comp, what will bring you to a shoot. What annoys you about shoots? Not just ours but everyones. What is something done by a club that you think is great?

Let's open this up to discussion as it is something that helps all shooters.

[Colin]

Did I Understand you to say you only had 20 entries? if so I am very surprised. I Liked the sound of it.
Sorry the Carter Clan could not attend, Main reason was too many things to fit in B4 Christmas.
But at the club, some members said that they like to shoot in class shoots, so that they have a chance of winning something.

[Marcus]

No we ended up with about 25 there. Would've liked more of course and thus need to find a way to get more in.

Interesting thing you said about the class shoot. What do you think of an open handicap event in which anyone could take it out?

What else would you like to see at shoots?

Thanks for the feedback! :)

[Bruce]

I think that you need to encourage the social side of your tournaments , the few that I have been to it seems that as soon as people finnish shooting they pack up and leave .
You don't have to encourage drinking after an event , but encourage people to mix and get to know each other not their own group . that way people will look forward to tournaments to catch up with old friends , we in aba still get usually 80-100 archers to a 2 day and usually twice that many to a state title.

[Eberbachl]

I was very dissapointed with the poor turnout at the Diamond Pile event this year. The event format was very interesting with both IFAA field and FITA field shot at the same tournament. The format was well recieved by all who participated I think and was alot of fun.

It was great to see an event open to archers who belong to either organisation, and this is something I would like to see more of, to promote both groups getting together as archers instead of field archers Vs target archers :D.

The poor turnout at our event was probably due to a number of factors...some of which may be as follows.

-Poor organisation on our part, with the event format not made clear enough, and lack of advertising prior to the event.

-No class awards, alot of people like to see class awards available, so the 1st class, 2nd class etc etc archers have a chance of winning, instead of just the MB's and GMB's. (Marcus currently has a good idea about an open handicap event to alleviate this problem!).

-Some AV shooters may have had hesitations about shooting IFAA field, and some ABA shooters may have had hesitations about shooting FITA field. Maybe when we advertised the event if we had explained the rounds to be shot more clearly on the event flier people might have been more enthusiastic?

-The Diamond Pile seems to be losing it's identity. Many other AV clubs have annual events which follow the same format every year and have perpetual trophies. I understand that DVA used to do this with the Diamond Pile, but in recent years it seems to be a different round every year, and no perpetual trophies. If we can come up with a winning format for this event and stick to it, and re-introduce perpetual trophies, then maybe we can generate some more interest.

What does everybody else think???

:D;):D

BTW Bruce - thanks for the suggestions about the Binocular rule in ABA. Could you send me an Email at luke@dva.asn.au (luke@dva.asn.au?subject=Binocular Rule)
with your email address, and I can start getting together some arguments for you to take to National? Thanks :D

[Eberbachl]

:D Ooops I hit submit twice :D :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[mike]

Interesting points made.

If I may put my 5 cents in, I agree with you Luke that a contributing factor is identity. You only have to look at the popularity of the Yarra Silver Star, which has been going on as a standard format event for years to see how an ongoing tournament brings both prestige and competitors.

Also, having a regular format and trophy makes the club well known for its event. Moorabbin is well known for the Holdsworth Trophy and the Moorabbin Sheild, and so these get good turnouts every year. The Sherbrooke Silver Cup got a better turnout than the State Field, and yet they were at the same club. A lot must be said of prestige and identity of tournaments, they do draw the competitors in.

Unfortunately I think that DVA is perhaps suffering in this department in terms of the Diamond Pile. I shot it last year when it was a FITA 1440 and really enjoyed it (despite the wind and my poor shooting at the time). I've got to say that I was looking forward to the DVA Fita at the end of the year, and so when the format was changed I did lose a little interest, although I would like to shoot an IFAA round. I think that people take a shoot more seriously if it is potentially a title that they can really defend the following year in the same format.

Any way, thats my thoughts, not shared by all I'm sure!! :D

But well done on a good shoot by all reports and congrats to the winners and to those who braved the weather on Sunday (if it was as bad at DVA as it was at Sherbrooke!)

[Eberbachl]

Thanks for your comments Mike! I think that the identity issue may be one of the most serious. You certainly are right about the Sherbrooke Silver Cup having more competitors than the State Field titles. I'm not sure if the only reason was the overwhelming popularity of the Silver Cup, but I feel that it was certainly a contributing factor.

If we can develop a format that proves to be popular (and keep it!), and reintroduce perpetual trophies along with fixing some of the other issues then I think we will be on the right track.

I like your suggestion about people feeling as though they have some sort of title to defend with these annual events... I hadn't thought of it that way, but it is a valid point.

Cheers :D:D

[Marcus]

Yep that was a conclusion that we had come up with and was good to hear it from someone else, helps us know we are not insane. :eek

We see the following issues and a summary of points made:

No classes means a GMB is most likely to win so others don't bother
Poor timing, so many things on in December
Lack of interesting prices at end, lack of title
Needs better social format at end (some kind of clown or stripper perhaps?? <kidding>)
Devise a format and stick with it.

I would like to add the following that I think will help

Rounds aimed at being fun for all archers (FITA's put off the newer shooters)
Better promotion
Lower cost, especially if aimed at ABA shooters (most were complaining that $25 was too much)
Team event. Are they still being run at clubs?


Thanks for the feedback Mike, Colin and Bruce, keep it coming. A good tournament shouldn't be guess work and we are taking everyone's opinions on board. Doesn't matter if you are ABA, a GMB or a 3rd class shooter, we are aiming our shoots at everyone. :) :D :) :cool :) :) :D

[Guest]

I dont really think that there is anything wrong with the tournaments, but clubs do need to encourage and prepare for some of these events. Without sufficient notice how can a club encourage new members to get involved.
Personally I believe that entry forms should be out 2 months prior to the event, and this then gives club committee's and other members together to practice.

We do need to improve communications, and this forum is an excellent example of how this can be done. Although there are a considerable number of archers out there that dont get the opportunity to get near a computer.

We can only chip away at the edges, we need to promote our sport in a co-ordinated manner and not from club to club.

But the events should be run, supported by the state associations and by the clubs.

Are we running to many events??

I see this as an issue as many of the people running clubs (0n a voluntary basis) are also the competitors, here lies a fundemental problem, how does a club continue to grow when its members are away from the clubs.??




:) :) :) null

[Bruce]

Marcus , I agree with everything printed in regards to this matter (not sure about the clown idea ) :eek

May I suggest that DVA is the perfect vehicle for cross promotion between the two associations , and I would like to see more events being hosted where all archers can shoot together and share ideas . Please consider the same format for next year , I will do my best to support and encourage participation at a branch level . your clubs ABA rep should have our tournament calender for next year maybe sometime in September would be good as a practice round for the masters ???

[Marcus]

Well in terms of running the IFAA/FITA field event again I was unsure. However I love IFAA and want to see more of it shot around the country. Also in terms of adding an identity to the shoot I will leave it as it is next year. It will be in December again however as that's when we are slotted in on the AV calendar. We will promote from September though, especially to ABA clubs and try to build up interest. May even try and get our own ABA Tour Dir involved.
Personally I'm not interested in running Master's games practise rounds. I can't shoot in it, it's not a real championship and how many going need a practise event? I would rather a junior Nats practise event.

As for ABA/AV shoots, I would love to see it, especially as our insurance covers ABA shooters at our club, so Syd Green's claims that AA and ABA can't shoot together is wrong.

archers1st
I see your point on too many comps. It seems there are so many now that it's almost impossible to shoot them all. It also seems like many clubs are running 2 shoots a year now, although I am seeing more and more clubs where the lower end shooters never leave the club, it would be great to see more of them out shooting at other clubs, especially juniors, where are they all??? :confused

We are coming up with a new format we want to try, would people come to DVA to shoot it if we old an unofficial shoot in Jan? Can't give details because we are still nutting them out.

[Guest]

Just another line of thought, if archers are shooting rounds at the clubs, why not get the results included in a state wide postal competition. Even if a monthly postal event, no fee, just a ladder with results (outright & handicapped??) with clubs participating and sending results to a nominated club that would post on the net. A number of clubs have internet sites now and all we would need is to co-ordinate the round of the month and then have results in by a certain date.


The aim here again is to get some co-ordinated action between clubs,

What's the thought's on this??
:)

[Marcus]

Way ahead of you on this one. I have already started building a site that will allow us to run a state, aussie or world wide postal shoot with online ladder, instant feedback on results etc etc. Only bad thing with postals is that they are not very social, but still are great fun. I like the idea of a round of the month postal shoot, the system I am building would mean we can run quite a few different postal events without much stress.

[Colin]

I would like to see the fita/ifaa return next year (even though I couldent make this one), I was suprised the you dident have more member of your club shooting. A move from December would probley also help to raise numbers.

Clubs need to make sure that club shoots do not clash with Tournaments. We need to encourage new members to attend Tournaments, Maybee when they sign up to AV they could recive free entry to 2 or 3 Tournaments? just to try and get them hooked.

Handicapping for Tournaments would very hard to work out & I think that Classing is most likely the best way to go.

I am looking forward to your indoor postal shoot, although I thing that you could run it weekly. There are enough clubs now that shoot weekly Indoors. All you would need is someone each club to submit scores each week. It would be great to see a State Ranking ladder, even for those of us who would not be on the top.

[Eberbachl]

Thanks for the comments Colin. We are thinking that after the warm reception our IFAA/FITA shoot had we may like to try it again next year, so hopefully we will see this format return.

December is a bad month to hold a shoot, I'm unsure if we will be able to change it for next year, but in subsequent years we should be able to bring it back a little.

I agree that handicapping is a difficult process, and almost impossible to attain accurate handicaps on one day of shooting at a tournament when the handicaps are based on score, but the handicap system that Marcus is trying to formulate would be based on classes, instead of score, and people would be handicapped by the distance they shoot.

For example: (the distance may not be correct!)

GMB's shoot 90, 80, 70, 60

MB's shoot 80, 70, 60 ,50

1st Class shoot 70, 60, 50, 40

2nd Class shoot 60, 50, 40, 30

3rd Class shoot 50, 40, 30, 20

...so people are handicapped based on their current class and all shoot against eachother.

I think this format has alot of potential, and although it may prove difficult to run logistically (we would most likely need portable butts so that everyone is on the same shooting line), I think it would be quite an accurate way of handicapping people "on the day" instead of trying to handicap them on their first two distance scores for example....

What do you all reckon?

:D:D:D

[Colin]

Sounds like a good system. Once you get the distances right it should work fine.
Does ABA have any Class system?

[Eberbachl]

Yes, ABA has a class system ( in ABA they call them grades rather than classes)

The grades for ABA are as follows...

Grand Master (Award Status only)
Master (Highest Competition Grade)
A Grade
B Grade
C Grade
D Grade

So, conveniently enough, if you take out Grand Master in ABA because it is not a competition grade, only an award ( all the grand masters shoot in the masters grade), ABA has the same amount of grades/classes as AV.

This means, that hypothetically I don't see any reason why we can't include ABA shooters in the handicap system based on class if they would like to participate.

OOOh! I just realised we are moving closer to archers from both organisations shooting together - how EXCITING! :D:D:eek:D:D

Won't that make the powers that be happy! :confused

[Marcus]

Maybe we can incorporate a AV vs ABA team event that has the target componant and the field componant? Defend the glory of your disipline. Tea Drinkers V Knuckle Draggers! :D :) ;) ;) The target event becomes our kind of 'home advantage' while the field becomes ABA's. We run the target in April/May and field in Noc.Dec.
No rivalry, only friendly and promote mingling.

[Guest]

In regard to the idea of a postal shoot and your suggestion that it encompass a greater base ie international competitors..

Yes sounds great in theory but we need to get it going at the base level first, in addition our rounds are unique to Australia ( ask someone in the states to shoot a Canberra and what response will you get???)

A way around this of course is to have a number of postal shoot ladders going with different rounds to accomodate the variations in rounds, alternatively you have rounds such as FITA Target but you then discourage the new members of our sport to participate in the short term( As they may not feel confident at shooting at the distances ie 90m)Target Round and a Field can be included, with appropriate events and with the right amount of publicity and promotion I believe this would work.

Use the network around the clubs and lets get some feedback

:)

[Bruce]

Marcus , watch out , I think aa is getting its fair share of knuckle draggers . after attending the seminar at the weekend I think the mix is changing

[Bruce]

Marcus , watch out , I think aa is getting its fair share of knuckle draggers . after attending the seminar at the weekend I think the mix is changing

[Marcus]

HAHA :D I agree, and I think ABA is getting more tea drinkers, good thing I sit on the fence by drinking coffee! :)

Another thought that came up on the weekend is a Round Robin event. All the presue of Matchplay but with more arrows by everyone. What are the thoughts on that?

[Marcus]

must not be good.

I think a teams event is a must. Perhaps a 3 person team with only one GMB or MB allowed per team. any thoughts.