Hooter Shooter

[James Park]

In using my Hooter Shooter, I find that it shoots to the right of where I shoot with the same bow, arrows, release. (A couple of rings at 18M).
As far as I can tell, everything lines up exactly the same (for example, the arrow lines up with the stabiliser identically, etc), so I don't think it is torque.
Any ideas?

[2Dogs]

Does a Hooter Shooter use a bow sling............ if not it is obviously gripping the Bow :wink:

[James Park]

Does a Hooter Shooter use a bow sling............ if not it is obviously gripping the Bow :wink:
The bow rests in a hard plastic v-shaped grip, with a loose sling. The bow is able to rotate reasonably freely.

[Progen]

Could be you're the one doing some torquing, James, but with all your years of experience, you torque it exactly the same way each time. Possible? Same with a finger release. After many years and thousands of arrows, the human body narrows down the possible angles of the fingers upon release.

[2Dogs]

ok, maybe the pressure point of the HS is different to the pressure point of your bow hand?

[James Park]

I immediately thought about torque, but the arrow lines up with the stabilizer identically when I shoot the bow or it is in the HS. Also, I have my sight extension set at the distance where any torque is cancelled out. Hence, I suspect it is not that (not ruling it out, just that it seems unlikely).

[James Park]

It is possible that the pressure point is different. Will have to think about how to test that one.

[Marcus]

But then other bows have shot down the middle and some others have not.

I believe Jim had another AR34 today nit need adjusting, while my Alleginace is only a touch off, and my Dad's Allegiance is way right.

[James Park]

Yes, had another AR34 in the HS today and it shot exactly the same as for its owner (and again, just about all arrows in the same hole at 15M).

[The One]

Not sure about how the hooter shooter is set up, but from a physiological perspective, humans can't shoot with their front arm directly in line with the arrow flight which would be ideal. Therefore, the back tension that we need to keep us from collapsing would exert a force on the bow which would include a small component in the left direction for a right hander. Perhaps this would explain why you shoot more left than the machine?

[James Park]

It would be interesting to see if a lefthander gets them out the other side. (Will have to get Bryce to get his compound out).

[James Park]

I have tried both my AR34 and my Scorpion. Same result.

[The One]

If you wanted a more definitive test, you could use one of those alternative compounds and see how it shoots both left and right handed.

Of course those bows aren't very sexy, so you may not want to be seen with one.

[OldDog]

Like I have been telling you for yeas jimbo, Archers triangle baby, archers triangle.
I can nt believe with your experience that you can not grasp the concept of the human body in triangular pressure will not react differently to solid metal. Lube the propellor. :roll:

[Marcus]

Like I have been telling you for yeas jimbo, Archers triangle baby, archers triangle.
I can nt believe with your experience that you can not grasp the concept of the human body in triangular pressure will not react differently to solid metal. Lube the propellor. :roll:So why can other archers shoot down the same hole as the hooter?

[Progen]

Countertorque from the drawing arm? :roll:

[OldDog]

Some can some cant. All can if they wish to manipulate their grip. That however is simply a means to an end and will not neccessarily give you optimum results in real world shooting.

[Marcus]

I don't think it's that simple, Jm can twist and turn his grip alot and still hit the same hole, only the hooter hits differently.

[OldDog]

That may well b because he is limp wristed. :rofl:

[OldDog]

Pun intended :D sorry Jim
Marcus. It is my belief that the torque comes more from the arm than the hand. The body sideloads itself to a degree that hand placement (within certain perameters) is largely unnoticable in tests like these. At the moment of release the hand will go to its natural shape regardless of how you distort it. (once again It needs qualifing)
What forces are imparted upon the bow via the body torque is an entirely different animal.

[wareagle]

Like I have been telling you for yeas jimbo, Archers triangle baby, archers triangle.
I can nt believe with your experience that you can not grasp the concept of the human body in triangular pressure will not react differently to solid metal. Lube the propellor. :roll:So why can other archers shoot down the same hole as the hooter?
Can they shoot Jim's bow, down the same hole as the Hooter?

[2Dogs]

Marcus. It is my belief that the torque comes more from the arm than the hand. The body sideloads itself to a degree that hand placement (within certain perameters) is largely unnoticable in tests like these. At the moment of release the hand will go to its natural shape regardless of how you distort it. (once again It needs qualifing)
What forces are imparted upon the bow via the body torque is an entirely different animal.

and that Boys and Girls finishs Professor Muttley's Archery Physics 101 :D............... Now bitch Pour me annuda OP rum :rofl:

[pmulholland]

What about the other hand?

How does the HS connect to and release the bowstring.

With human shooting could different finger pressures on the release be causing the difference? If so it could explain those mystery left right shots we all get from time to time :wink:

Then again Jim, maybe I should have read your post on release aid angle before posting this reply !!

Another thought.........maybe it's caused by unnoticed pressure of the string on your face at full draw and on release.

[James Park]

Peter,
You can set the HS to hold the release just about exactly as you would hold it yourself. You can set all the angles, etc.

[James Park]

Another thought.........maybe it's caused by unnoticed pressure of the string on your face at full draw and on release.
Checked that one. I do not have the string touching my face.

[James Park]

Bryce and I had a play today.
With my bow, the HS shoots several rings to the right of where I shoot.
With Bryce's bow, the HS shoots several rings to the left of where he shoots. (Bryce is lfethanded, of course).
Hence, consistent.
Neither of us could see any errors we were making.

With my bow in the HS, we set it to shoot central X's at 15M.
Then, with the bow at full draw we applieed a side force to the cable guard to move the alignment of the arrow with the stabilizer about 1" to the side. Then we aimed it in the centre of the target, It hit a central X.
That is: the sight bar extension length is exactly cancelling out the effect of the torque (as expected). By my reasoning, if either the HS or I am applying torque to the bow, which we think is not the case, then in any case the sight extension length would cancel it out. Hence, we think that torque cannot be the reason HS shoots differently to us.

[DavidA]

Because you are not actually holding the bow, is it possible that on release, it jumps slightly.
When you are holding it, your hand should dampen any small jumps.
It may be worth wrapping a soft pad between the bow grip and the plastic V shaped hand simulator

[The One]

Jim, when I was talking about the bow arm angle, I don't mean that there will be a torque on the riser, but rather a direct force with a small horizontal component.

[PIG FARMER]

Jim I think one thing that the H/S will not be doing that most back tension
archers will be is pulling into the wall. I know on some of my bows this
will make a difference to arrow impact point....

[James Park]

You can make HS pull into the wall (you simply wind the rachet another click).
(You need to be pretty careful with that, in fact, as I think the racket is sufficiently strong that you could easily overdraw the bow).

[hmz91]

Hello

This is a problem I think about since few years.
My observation and questions:
Observation : when the bow is well tuned and something happening i.e.: nock height moving of an hair, I often see my group moving generally on the left with almost no effect up or down.
also anther observation: the rest is wear more on one side than the other
question: why?,

Few ideas, :
In this case the lateral response of the rest on the arrow is modify.
then the dynamics of the bow arrow combination ( level of harmonics frequencies are impacted a lot )
then the bow perform gradually slightly differently, but with consistencies, arrows to the following arrows.
When just a microscopic change alter the tuning, the bow still perform well, but change the result. Of course when there is a big change the bow is out of tuning and groups are affected.

In the case of HS: everything is the same as a normal shoot exept, the response of the hand is not linear: in my opinion just after the release two new forces are comming: the string push the arrow and the bow push the hand ( reaction: when you launch something forward you are subjet to a force backward ), the two force have same intensity but reverse direction.
At this moment the hand, wrist harm change of geometry due to that force and react. HS does also but is more stable, especially in the direction of the force.


I have never used an HS ( I did try to built one years ago with not success: my group at 50m was 1 meter wide!! , I am sure the grip to machine connection was the problem)

Here is my theory,
this is not clear, I am not able to do mathematics simulations to confort theses, may be some one here can do that.


Good luck James with your HS,
archery mechanics learned me that when you solve one question, the answer generates more interrogation than solved!!!.


Philippe

[James Park]

Good luck James with your HS,
archery mechanics learned me that when you solve one question, the answer generates more interrogation than solved!!!.
Philippe
Yes, I agree with that. :D

[James Park]

Solved it.
I have found that the D-loop moves to the side as the release device operates and hence just at the moment the arrow is released its orientation changes.
When I am shooting the bow this does not happen (as much) because my face is in the way.
My testing has been quite conclusive and I am in no doubt at all that this is it.
From testing I have since done I get the same with all Carter release devices where the jaw opens towards my face.
When I use a (now very ancient) Stanislowski Avenger release the HS shoots exactly where I do. For that release the jaw opens away from my face, so the problem is completely removed.
I am now pretty sure that this also explains the problem I have had at 30M over the past year where I have had arrows in the 9 at 3 o'clock when I have been certain I have shot them sufficiently well to score a 10.

[primal]

For that release the jaw opens away from my face, so the problem is completely removed.

does a loop off the release make any difference?

maybe the carter ember II would be a suitable replacement?
http://www.carterenterprises.com/products/Album/ember%202%203fin.jpg

[hmz91]

Thanks James

Also , this could clarify some questions I had.

Sometimes arrows are deviated to the left for me, I am left handed!!

This is clearer than what my imagination built up on my previous answer .

philippe

[James Park]

I will now use a release where the jaw opens away from my face (as in my ancient Avenger).
Interestingly, without the HS I think I would never have found this one. I probably would have continued to get a few arrows in the 9 at 3 o'clock when I thought they should have been 10's and simply blamed myself for doing something wrong. It was not a large-enough error to immediately point out that something was wrong, just enough to really annoy me. Also, an archer averaging a little lower than me would probably never have picked it as an issue. It has possibly been costing me 10 to 15 points per FITA over the past 18 months?

The magnitude of the problem:
Last night I tried it at 18M. Shot as I normally do, with the string on the side of my chin, my arrows were in the X. If I then held the string away from my face, but still aimed correctly through the peep, with the sight centred on the target, my arrows were in the 4 - 5 ring to the right on a normal indoor face (actually a miss, because there is no 4 or 5 ring). If I shot normally, but simply varied how hard the string was against my face, I had arrows in the 9 ring to the right, just out of the 10. Hence, as I tire through a round, I am likely to vary my anchor just slightly and start to get the occassional shot to the right - exactly what I have been finding in a FITA.

Another interesting point is that while for me the problem is very apparent, predictable and repeatable, neither Marcus nor Leigh could duplicate it, even using my bow and release. It seems to be just me that is broken.

[James Park]

For that release the jaw opens away from my face, so the problem is completely removed.

does a loop off the release make any difference?

maybe the carter ember II would be a suitable replacement?

The release device rope does help a bit, but is was still not perfect.
The release in the picture still has the jaw opening towards the archer, and hence for me is still a problem. I want one that opens the other direction.

[Bruce]

Jim , have a look at the new Stans


THey open away from you



Bruce

[katzgrin]

What if you built a string with the opposite helix? Could this offset the movement induced by the release hook?

One of our club members found, by powder testing, that the d loop was hitting the nock at some point after release. I am wondering if direction of twist plus the imparted direction from the release hook could result in this? So many arrows, so many questions, so little time.

[Kuru]

James have you done any tests, dloop Vs Clints "loopy" ? And also any trials planned for dloops in different positions, ie under nock as I have seen on some peoples setup ?

[James Park]

Kuru,
I haven't tried that yet, but it would be interesting.
Mostly so far I have put my time into ensure that the HS hits the same place as I do. Along the way I have tried a few interesting things, and have learnt a few things that would otherwise have eluded me.

[Kuru]

Have you thought of renting it out to clubs to recoup some of what the HS costs ? Could be a good little money earner :D

[James Park]

Yes, happy to have others help pay for it.
What I am also trying to do is to get a set of really useful things that you can do with it over about a half hour or so.
For example, things you can easily do with it include:
- Check cam timing.
- Check cam lean.
- Check for bow torque.
- Check that the bow in the HS shoots where you do.
- Set the sight level at full draw (very easy to do with the HS).
- Set the optimum sight extension distance.
- Paper and powder test.
- Set the peep orientation.
- Test the sensitivity of release device angle.
- Verify that the arrows do indeed all hit the same hole.
For each of these I think the HS is a nice advantage.

[apexrob]

I will now use a release where the jaw opens away from my face (as in my ancient Avenger).
Interestingly, without the HS I think I would never have found this one. I probably would have continued to get a few arrows in the 9 at 3 o'clock when I thought they should have been 10's and simply blamed myself for doing something wrong. It was not a large-enough error to immediately point out that something was wrong, just enough to really annoy me. Also, an archer averaging a little lower than me would probably never have picked it as an issue. It has possibly been costing me 10 to 15 points per FITA over the past 18 months?

The magnitude of the problem:
Last night I tried it at 18M. Shot as I normally do, with the string on the side of my chin, my arrows were in the X. If I then held the string away from my face, but still aimed correctly through the peep, with the sight centred on the target, my arrows were in the 4 - 5 ring to the right on a normal indoor face (actually a miss, because there is no 4 or 5 ring). If I shot normally, but simply varied how hard the string was against my face, I had arrows in the 9 ring to the right, just out of the 10. Hence, as I tire through a round, I am likely to vary my anchor just slightly and start to get the occassional shot to the right - exactly what I have been finding in a FITA.

Another interesting point is that while for me the problem is very apparent, predictable and repeatable, neither Marcus nor Leigh could duplicate it, even using my bow and release. It seems to be just me that is broken.

Remember this James Park," You can't put a formula on talent".