Spotting your last arrow of an end

[James Park]

It is quite normal that we get ticked off for spotting the last arrow of an end.
However, my feeling is that so long as we are within the permitted time for the end it is quite reasonable that we do it. In fact, I think it is important to do so.
I know of nothing in the rules that prohibits us from spotting it. Hence, I definitely plan to keep on doing so, despite any complaints from the DOS or judges.
What do you think?

[Marcus]

I get annoyed if we are doing a club shoot and someone is taking about 30 seconds to spot their last arrow while we all wait. That ****es me greatly.
At a timed tournament though I don't mind it.

[Glenn Ryan]

If there are plenty of people on the line, then by all means do so...if not, then get off.

I agree, it ****es me no end to see someone standing there looking through a scope at an arrrow that they can't change anyway and are going to get a real close look at very shortly (imminent walk to the target).

[wiggles]

If it is timed you are allowed to shoot right up to the buzzer. Spotting your last arrow is not going to delay the timer. At a club shoot you should stand down after your last arrow.

[Eberbachl]

Yup, if you're within the time limit why not?

If you're the last one on the line at a club shoot though, I'd say consider others and maybe have a quick peek, but don't hold people up.

;)

[2Dogs]

Depends on how I'm shooting.

If it's Crap....... "Oy you!, get your arse off the line and stop spotting"

If it's good........" Oh.....everyone's at the target scoring" :wink:

[Archangel]

Yes, if it's within time. You don't get told off for taking four minutes to shoot your arrows, and what difference does it really make whether people are waiting for you to shoot or to spot?
If it's slowing the shoot down too much, then reduce the allowed time. At a major tournament it will be close to 4 minutes each end anyway, the nly way to improve that would be to change the rules. Scopes aren't making any difference to it.

[wiggles]

Depends on how I'm shooting.

If it's Crap....... "Oy you!, get your a*se off the line and stop spotting"

If it's good........" Oh.....everyone's at the target scoring" :wink:

Can relate to that. Seems the worse I shoot, the longer I look.

[New Tricks]

Get off the line. Ban spotting scopes full stop. Binos only.

[wiggles]

Seez he who has good eyes.

[New Tricks]

I actually wear glasses but do not when shooting as the frame blocks the peep.

[Milkovitsch]

However, my feeling is that so long as we are within the permitted time for the end it is quite reasonable that we do it. In fact, I think it is important to do so.

Would you care to elaborate? In the rush to offer personal opinions on etiquette, I fear your point is being missed 8)




.

[Brett k]

Yes good topic, I have been told by judges not to spot my last shot, its just part of my shot sequence to do so. Apparently there is a rule, and it is not allowed (I cant give a reference, sorry) but its in the book I was shown it by a judge.

[New Tricks]

I often haer people saying it is part of their shot sequence. This always dumbfounds me as there are no more arrows to shoot so why does it matter?

[tom_the_tank]

I've always been told that you are not allowed to spot your last arrow. I don't know if this is illegal or just bad ethics. JMO

[Archangel]

I often haer people saying it is part of their shot sequence. This always dumbfounds me as there are no more arrows to shoot so why does it matter?
I think it's more that they just don't think of it - they always spot their arrow, so they spot the last one too. Then the judge can nail them if they want.

tom: yes, it is illegal under FITA rules. Seems it's not really considered bad ethics (most of us don't seem to be concerned) unless it was really blatant, like staying on the line for 30s or so.

[New Tricks]

So being against the rules only matters sometimes? Might as well go and shoot from 20m when shooting 90. EVERYONE WHO SPOTS THEIR LAST ARROW IS A CHEAT (lol, I will run with this one hahaha).

[hmz91]

Hello



spotting last arrow when time limit is not ended or leave immediatly the shooting line :
What is the problem ?
S

[New Tricks]

I agree with the essence of you post Phil. It seems you are saying that there are many judges with a little taste of power and run with it and take it too far. I do agree with you and find that the need for judges in the first place reflects poorly on the sport of Target Archery anyway. A truely honest archer would never need one. It is the dishonest ones that we need them for. The next step from that is selfishness.

Can the act of cheating or being dishonest be due to selfishness? The archer that dishonestly claims something is technically denying another of a fair and honest game and is therefore being selfish. Judges enforce the rules and will call disputed arrows. This is to stop selfishness. Holding up an entire shooting line is plain selfish. The judges are just enforcing a consistent approach and making sure that another form of selfishness does not rear its ugly head.

[Brocky]

So lets get this right 4 minutes 6 arrows = 40 seconds a arrow.
Lets say we decide to shoot the first arrow and spot it for 2 minutes leaving us 24 seconds for each of the remaining arrows, would we then be punished for taking so long to spot the first arrow or because we are within the allocated time frame would the archer then recieve a warning.

[New Tricks]

I just read the Target rules, The Judge's Guidelines and the FITA Ethics document. There is absolutely no rule that states you cannot sight your last arrow. There is no rule that dictates anything other than the arrows must be shot within the 4/2 minutes.

[Clare Barnes]

I just read the Target rules, The Judge's Guidelines and the FITA Ethics document. There is absolutely no rule that states you cannot sight your last arrow. There is no rule that dictates anything other than the arrows must be shot within the 4/2 minutes.

You're right, though it's easier to just ask a friendly judge and be given the same answer! :wink:

[New Tricks]

Clare. At a FITA Star even I shot, at the start, they announced to the Masses 'DO NOT SPOT YOUR LAST ARROW'. Under what authority would they do this? Were they out of line? Speaking specifically within the rules that is.

[Archangel]

I stand corrected - I was sure I'd read that you weren't allowed to spot the last arrow. Guess that's what I get for not checking it in the FITA book :-P

[Clare Barnes]

Clare. At a FITA Star even I shot, at the start, they announced to the Masses 'DO NOT SPOT YOUR LAST ARROW'. Under what authority would they do this? Were they out of line? Speaking specifically within the rules that is.

I'm not the judge I asked - I'm just an ex-candidate judge who didn't like judging and quit before completing the required number of events! Please never take what I am saying as gospel. :( Things may have changed in the last couple of years though I do try to keep up with changes out of interest.

It would be interesting to challenge it and ask for it to be shown to you in print in the FITA rule book, not the judge's guidelines.

Perhaps it's a bit like the thought that you cannot leave the shooting line to go and get another arrow/release aid/bow/etc. I can't recall anything in the rulebook to say that leaving the shooting line means that you've finished shooting. It's your 2/4 minutes - how can you be gaining an advantage if you nick off for a bit? So long as you observe normal courtesies to your fellow archers...

Ed - where are you? Your expert opinion as AF's resident judge is required please. :D

[wiggles]

At an untimed event, I don't spot my last arrow mostly. If the person in front of me is still shooting I will have a quick squize. At a timed event, I nearly always do. I want to know exactly were the last group is.

[Ed]

Clare. At a FITA Star even I shot, at the start, they announced to the Masses 'DO NOT SPOT YOUR LAST ARROW'. Under what authority would they do this? Were they out of line? Speaking specifically within the rules that is.

I'm not the judge I asked - I'm just an ex-candidate judge who didn't like judging and quit before completing the required number of events! Please never take what I am saying as gospel. :( Things may have changed in the last couple of years though I do try to keep up with changes out of interest.

It would be interesting to challenge it and ask for it to be shown to you in print in the FITA rule book, not the judge's guidelines.

Perhaps it's a bit like the thought that you cannot leave the shooting line to go and get another arrow/release aid/bow/etc. I can't recall anything in the rulebook to say that leaving the shooting line means that you've finished shooting. It's your 2/4 minutes - how can you be gaining an advantage if you nick off for a bit? So long as you observe normal courtesies to your fellow archers...

Ed - where are you? Your expert opinion as AF's resident judge is required please. :D

There is nothing in the rules about spotting your arrows, whether it be the first or last arrow.
The Judges Manual/Guidelines are simply helpful hints, etc and nothing more than that.
"Nick off" - for a bit of what?
There are a number of judges who seem intent in pressing their own interpretations of the rules.
In the same way that when you submit an appeal you are asked to quote the relevant rule under which you are appealing, I would also ask a judge to quote the relevant rule which s/he is applying when issuing an instruction.
As many have stated on this topic, the rules are there essentially to ensure fair play and to ensure that no one obtains an unfair advantage.
The rule of thumb I normally apply is that the sport is for the archers, not the judges. If there is no problem, then leave it alone. Never interfere unless the archers request your assistance or unless there is a clear breach of the rules.
As I say to judges before the tournament, one famous boxing referee said to the protagonists - "they came here to see you fight - not to watch me referee."

[doug timbs]

Thanks for clearing this up guys. I have another question though.
Can a club hosting a Fita Star or a Ranking Round apply their own house rules about spotting the last arrow or any other rule they see fit?

Doug

[James Park]

No

[doug timbs]

Thanks Jim.
I love difiitive answers.

Doug

[Milkovitsch]

Jim,

You have not enlightened us as to why you think it's important to spot your last arrow.

So I will add my own reasoning for this; although I am the first to admit that it might not carry as much weight as yours...... :hail: :wink:

I believe that archery is all about repetition. Repetition in the way you drwa, aim, shoot, lubricate the arrows etc etc etc. So I have this wild idea that I need to be consistent in every action, which includes spotting every arrow.
I admit that this might need a little more thought. Is it that important to be so repetitive?

[James Park]

Sorry, I had meant to comment.
My experience is that the wind drift can change from arrow to arrow. I would quite happily change where I aim for every shot, and am quite happy to change my sight setting every shot (so long as I shot it properly and where it hit is a good indication of where they will go with the current setting). Remember that I am needing to get mostly 10's, not 9's, so my aiming and sight setting needs to ensure that my group is centered on the X, not on the edge of the 10 ring, or worse.
I want to know where my last arrow hit so that I can make any correction immediately, not after I have walked down to the target, scored, and then walked back again. (My memory is not that good).
Without a telescope, or without spotting the arrows, you can get the sort of thing I found in this year's Nationals Matchplay. (Although it was strongly influenced by me also being too tired from trying to run too many things). I had loaned my telescope to Bryce for his target rounds and had not got it back when I had to shoot the individual matchplay. Hence I shot blind. I could see that they were going in the gold (that is pretty easy) but while I had acceptable groups they were not centered on the 10, giving me low end scores with lots of 9's rather than 10's. This is ok if you want to average low 50's (which will never win a big tournament either recurve or compound), but not ok if you want to average 57 or more.

[Milkovitsch]

But if you are shooting in the type of conditions where you are making adjustments every second arrow (or worse) then what's the point of spotting your last arrow and adjusting your settings, then walking to the target, scoring, returning to the line, setting up and then shooting? in such changing conditions, this setting could be incorrect by then.
Otrherwise adjustments would have been sorted by the 5th arrow, if not the previous end, surely?

[James Park]

I find that even in very light wind the groups do move around enough to significantly damage the score (one only needs to shoot at DVA on a good day to experience this).

[machinegunjones]

at the risk of sounding insolent, if you are doing this after every end (and you're presumably not an android), don't you think it might be you making the mistakes, not the wind moving your groups around?

and if that is true, what will correcting your sight setting after every end achieve exactly?

really, i'm curious, because I've accepted the fact that the equipment I shoot with is technically perfect. I, as the launching pad, am not.

[Mike13]

...the fact that the equipment I shoot with is technically perfect.
That's a big call.

[James Park]

Especially at the long distances, subtle wind drift changes do happen from arrow to arrow, and I think you need to get onto them immediately if you want a high score.
For example, last Sunday at DVA we had only a light wind, but it was sufficient to move groups to the edge of the 10 ring at 90M, and for one end it dropped them low into the 9 ring. Not just me, but all three of us on the target (and all three are reasonable shots).

[Madeleine Ferris]

Don't know if it's an official rule or not, but it makes sense that if you are the last on the line (or think you might be) it's just plain inconsiderate to spot your last arrow. And you can't do anything about it because it was the last arrow anyway. Having it as part of your "routine" is hog wash - change the routine for the last arrow and it becomes part of the routine.

Now if you know that there are plenty of archers still on the line then I think it's fair and reasonable to spot the last one if you just can't wait for a moment longer to find out. If I'm not sure and I just HAVE to look, I take a glance along the line to make sure there are other archers still shooting and then take a quick peek. Some people couldn't care less if they hold things up (which is why the rule - either written or unwritten - is there, but I do.

At the end of the day, if the last person on the line spots their last arrow it just adds to the length of the shoot unnecessarily when you could be back in the clubhouse enjoying ---- whatever.

[Milkovitsch]

when you could be back in the clubhouse enjoying ---- whatever.
A clubhouse - wow - imagine having a clubhouse :(

Well said Madeleine.

[Brian Politis]

Fita Target Rules... 7.7.4.1 "After an athlete has shot his or her arrows, he or she will immediately retire behind the waiting line." I think that means don't hang around spotting your last arrow.....

[Brocky]

What happens if you are checking to see if you have shot all 6 arrows making sure you dont loose points or miss shooting an arrow. Due to know fault of your own.

[wiggles]

Stack your quiver right and you don't need to worry about it. I've got a 4 tube quiver. 3 in each tube, 2 tubes empty, done shooting.

[Brocky]

This could cause target panic though causing archers to shoot 7 arrows if not sure if they have lost one or one has fallen out of their quiver and what happens if your get a quiver with three tubes in it and your trying to save your spinwings or arrow demage.

[Shirt]

If you're not organised enough to be able to keep track of your arrows in the quiver, then the odds are that you're going to be nowhere NEAR organised enough to keep track of them in the target. So it makes no difference whether you're looking at your arrows at all, never mind whether it's the last one or not.

[Milkovitsch]

This could cause target panic though causing archers to shoot 7 arrows if not sure if they have lost one or one has fallen out of their quiver and what happens if..............
:lol: Oh man, I goota see that archer :lol:



.

[Brocky]

Shirt how many archers have you seen in a panic because they have lost or misplaced their finger tab/ sling before an end begins :o Milkovitsch :P

[wiggles]

How did we all manage before scopes. :lol:

[Shirt]

Shirt how many archers have you seen in a panic because they have lost or misplaced their finger tab/ sling before an end begins :o

Quite a few, I'm usually one of them. That doesn't mean I'm going to forget how many arrows I've shot.

And it's not target panic, it's lack of awareness and thought. :P

[Brocky]

No its being so focused you just shoot without allowing any thoughts or emotions to control your shooting whilst being aware of your surrounding such as wind, rain and sun.

[Clout Master]

Whats the differance between spoting your last arrow within the time limit and groups taking their time doing post mortums scoring their arrows,, where there is no time limit and holding up the shooting line for minutes not seconds like if you were spoting your last arrow ???
I know which I would like to have !!!

[New Tricks]

No its being so focused you just shoot without allowing any thoughts or emotions to control your shooting whilst being aware of your surrounding such as wind, rain and sun.

Hogwash.

If this was the case, I would shoot 100 arrow ends. It is not our fault you are retarded.

[Shirt]

"I was so focussed I shot seven arrows."

I can't see that, in all honesty. If you're that focussed then you're likely to be so focused that you forget to call your arrows as anything other than a ten and will get kicked off the field for cheating after the first end.

[Milkovitsch]

No its being so focused you just shoot without allowing any thoughts or emotions to control your shooting whilst being aware of your surrounding such as wind, rain and sun.

'Zen and the art of archery' :-? How do I achieve such focus, oh master?








.

[Brocky]

New Tricks from what we have been told that is what you do and still struggle to shoot 900 as a total for a fita.
Shirt its been stated and used in the past at events I have attended but then again that was by an Englishman so it was understandable and excepted as normal.
Milkovitsch I don't know I have never shot 7 arrows in a end.

[Shirt]

Milkovitsch I don't know I have never shot 7 arrows in a end.

Ah, see, obviously you're not focussed enough.

[Brocky]

:wank: :sleeping: :roll: :wink: