"Forgivness"? please explain?

[primal]

Alot of poeple go on about this term "forgiveness." What I want to know is what does "forgiveness" mean? And more importantly why would you want it, a "forgiving" bow that is?

[New Tricks]

I dunno how much a 'forgiving' bow help for compound. Point and shoot. Where the dot is is where the arrow is going. The only forgiving thing I look for is vanes. I sometimes do get a crap release when i hold too long and find longer is better. i am sure stick bow is a whole other animal however.

[StevenB]

less critical on perfect form

[Marcus]

I find the better I use my release the more forgiving things are. For example I was bouncing all over the place and very tense last weekend at 70m league and as long as I squeezed the shot of properly they hit the 10, even though it looked like I was aiming somewhere else in the gold.

[primal]

I find the better I use my release the more forgiving things are. For example I was bouncing all over the place and very tense last weekend at 70m league and as long as I squeezed the shot of properly they hit the 10, even though it looked like I was aiming somewhere else in the gold.

but is that "forgivness" or good form?

[Marcus]

I find the better I use my release the more forgiving things are. For example I was bouncing all over the place and very tense last weekend at 70m league and as long as I squeezed the shot of properly they hit the 10, even though it looked like I was aiming somewhere else in the gold.

but is that "forgivness" or good form?Nothing to do with the bow, if I release badly they end up anywhere BUT the 10.

[primal]

Nothing to do with the bow, if I release badly they end up anywhere BUT the 10.

ok so is it your bow thats forgiving? no obviously not, due to poor release the bow doesn't make up for it as you still get nines.
I find when i try and concentrate on the shot too much, focus on too many things, i end up all over the shop, 8's, 6's, sometimes i even get miss, i also end up tired, mentally. When i am focused on the spot i want to hit and relax nd just use my body how i was told too i shot alot of x's (not quite enough to make me a night... but close)

So why does everyone go on about forgivness when they should go on about good form?
Practice a good release and focus on your form and i'm sure it will find you more x's.

Now i shoot a 40" ATA bow supposedly long bows are more "forgiving" according to many? then why is it i can pick up a 34" bow that isn't even my draw length and drive tacks? my bow is also close to straight and the 34" is very reflexed. i dont understand all this rumored "fact" about forgiving bows, i also find it bewildering that someone would want one. i dont want the arrow to go were i didnt aim i want the arrow to go exactly where i aimed.

[Milkovitsch]

By 'forgiveness' we mean the relation between a bad shot and just how far from the X the arrow will end.
Typically a very fast bow, perhaps with a small axle-to-axle diameter will not be very forgiving, so that a small error by you will result in a really bad shot. Whereas a slower, gentler bow will 'forgive' your errors a little more. A good bow is fast, accurate and forgiving.

It has nothing to do with where you are aiming - and of course good form is essential - but a forgiving bow might not penalise you as much for a poor release, or torque in your wrist etc.


.

[Marcus]

That's the stereotype, but it doesn't hold true.
I find that the 34" bows tend to give me higher scores than the 40" ones.
So I guess the question is to the 40" = more forgiving crowd. What actually MAKES it more forgiving? (and 'because some pro says so' doesn't count)

[primal]

so milk you reckon a untorqueable bow is what forgivness defines? or something that will cover for our mistakes in form i.e how much we get punished for our mistakes. you know its funny you say that. i find that as my shooting improves i get punished less for my mistakes. like a nine instead of a ten. where as i used to shoot 250 indoor i can now walk in any night and say i am going to shoot a 285 and get it or break it. My bow is a machine. its not forgiving or unforgining. it puts the arrow down the line i aim it. why do poeple use nebulous terms like "forgivness" without any quantifiable data or research.

[primal]

Typically a very fast bow, perhaps with a small axle-to-axle diameter will not be very forgiving, so that a small error by you will result in a really bad shot.

what about the moost "forgiving bow jim and marcus tested a year or two ago, the pse scorpian its a 33" bow and is one of the best bows as far as torque goes. also the AR34 is 34" and very difiicult to torque. why are these bows so troque resistant? becasue they certainly aren't "forgiving" as they are less then 38" ATA.

[primal]

also milk dont take this personallyy like i am having a go at you. i am merely interested in why poeple insist on thinking a 40" bow is going to increase there scores or why a deflex riser is better because its more "forgiving" i am yet to see any one quantify with any real evidence what forgivness is. I think this is one for myth busters. 8)

[Marcus]

Another question, if longer is better then why do people use 38-41" bows and call them forgiving? When I was a jr I got a radical PSE Fire Flight. 41" axle and a straight riser. I can't tell you the brace height, because we never measured that aspect, nor was it listed.
If longer axle to axle = more forgiving which = higher scores then why do we not see top shooters holding onto and shooting their ProVantages?

[Milkovitsch]

When I wrote my post, I was thinking that if I give any specific examples (eg short axle-to-axle lenght) I would be picked up on this, and was going to elaborate - but decided to keep it short as this was not the discussion; I was merely trying to explain the meaning of FORGIVENESS, which I believe I have.
This is what I understand of 'forgiveness'. My elaboration would have said that certain traits make one bow more forgiving than another, but this is subject to change from bow to bow. I have also shot short bows, and found them more forgiving than longer bows in certain cases.

Primal thanks, no problem. Remember that 'forgiving' does not necessarily equate to higher scores. No-one is saying that you should necessarily shoot a forgiving bow .
Torque resistance is only one aspect of forgiveness. I would state that a bow that torques less than another could be called more forgiving.
It goes without saying that as you improve, you get punished less for your mistakes.

Yes the bow is a machine, but you are not. If you were, the concept of forgiveness would be irrelevant, and you would shoot 1440 with a broomstick. So we see that as archers get really good (closer to a 'machine') they don't care for a forgiving bow, they don't need it.

[Milkovitsch]

So I guess the question is to the 40" = more forgiving crowd. What actually MAKES it more forgiving? (and 'because some pro says so' doesn't count)

Like I said I did not mean to say this as a matter of fact. Your experience obviously says something difference.

As a wild guess, I would say that a longer bow (or one that has mass further away from its point of rotation) would be stabilised by the longer limbs as a result. Much like a stabiliser works - this is why the weight is all the way out there, more or less
But given that compound bows are quite involved, there are so many other (and stronger) movement forces involved that this could easily be overrriden and even reversed. possibly why this particular rule does not always hold true.
Another guess is that any difference in cam tuning would have more of an impact if you have a short bow / long draw lenght combination. I have to give this one some more though :roll:

PS. Happy birthday. :bday:

[primal]

thanks milk :D . i find your definition of forgivness to be accurate (pardon the pun :P ). "how much you are/are not punished for your mistakes". it does make sense. I do also appreciate your input . Now everyone else the question i will then ask is......... wait for it.....

what aspects make a bow "forgiving"?

Now no nebulous BS about long ATA or brace hieght. You have to have Quantifiable data. no "cousins shoots it" or "i heard a pro say once". i want evidence. like jims test of the scorpian. repeatable experiment to get same results. We now know that forgiving has a definition.

"how much you are not punished for poor form."

so give your evidence for/against in light of that point. "how much you are not punished for poor form." :bday: happy hunting.

[Marcus]

Raises another question

If longer stabilizer = more stability then why doesn't everyone use 41"+ stabilizer?

A. It's not that simple

[primal]

Hay Marcus, start your own thread :P but seriously, what possible advantages are there in

a. brace height
b. Axle To Axle length
c. Deflex
d. Reflex
e. parallel limbs
f. elite limbs (those really long almost recurved ones)
g. location of grip.... and
h. type of grip (i point to jims work here) :hail:
i. center of gravity

any one got any more?

[Milkovitsch]

A. It's not that simple
Agreed. Actually stabiliser selection is something which often baffled me. I have selected mine on recommendation and some experimentation. Whilst I do have a very good manual explaining HOW a stabiliser works, I am yet to see anything on STABILISER SELECTION, which is a shame.

Theoretically, the stabiliser arm should weigh nothing, be as stiff as anything and extend right up to (but not touching) the target.
Practically, there are limitations to what you can walk around with, how heavy it is, how stiff it can be etc.

BTW, does the stabiliser arm need to be so stiff?

[Milkovitsch]

Sorry - wrong thread :oops:

[primal]

Sorry - wrong thread :oops:

:rofl: all i need to do is add this guy.... :pirate:

[primal]

hay milk i found this article yileded some interesting if not useful information. but i wouldnt swear on like the bible or anything.

http://www.tenzone.u-net.com/Equipment/stabilisation/pdfs/stab4a4.pdf

now.... :focus:

[ninevalleys]

hey,

this is a debatable topic, (yes we haev all been through it before).
but generally a more forgiving bow means you can screw up your shot and it will not make too much of a difference (maybe a from a 10 -8), with a less forgiving bow if you screw up it could be from (10 - 6). of course this depends on bow adn stuff ( ia ma not getting into this again)

cheers NV

[primal]

Hay NV . "how much you are not punished for poor form." did you read this... its only in the thread 3 or 4 times. however thank you for nailing the point home. :D

cmon anyone show me your fogiving bow tips. :)

[Milkovitsch]

Hay Marcus, start your own thread :P but seriously, what possible advantages are there in

I will try to reply to do the right thing by Primal; from my limited understanding of archery and keeping in mind that different bows / manufacturers behave differently.

a. brace height
Smaller brace height more acceleration given to arrow but less accuracy.
b. Axle To Axle length
More lenght more forgiving :lol:
c. Deflex
Effected the brace height i think - there was something else on this but can't remember - I think it artificially increases the brace heoight but results in additional torque? I could also have reflex mixed up with deflex :roll:
d. Reflex
ditto
e. parallel limbs
More linear transfer of energy
f. elite limbs (those really long almost recurved ones)
No benefit with new limb technology
g. location of grip.... and
??????
h. type of grip (i point to jims work here) :hail:
Narrow grip less torque, should sit in the same place each time
i. center of gravity
Arrow should be in centre of gravity / centre of force.

any one got any more?

No doubt many of these will be questioned, and to be honest I am not sure on some.

[dbjac]

there would have to be two parts to forgivness

1) forgiving bow, which will counter some archer error,
2) forgiving (ie. correct) form, which will counter an unforgiving bow.

After recent experience i am leading to newtricks chain of thought, that fletching has a lot to do with a forgiving shot.
I recently tried craig tyson's 500 X10s, i am unsure of how they were cut, so i dont know the spine. These were fletched with spinwings (i normally shoot NAVs with shield cut flex fletch). However, i noticed that i couldnt group for ****e with them. While shooting 90m you get a feel for the arrow flight as you can see the arrow for quite some time. I noticed that with a bad shot, eg. one i hold onto for too long, or have a bad release, the arrow would spiral to the target in the most horrible of trajectories, and would go anywhere but the 10. It seems like the spinwings are not able to correct the arrows flight soon enough for the shot to stabilise in flight, resulting in a bad score.

This could just be the arrows, as i havent fletched any X10s with flexfletches yet, but i plan on doing this soon (if craig will let me).

[Archangel]

e. parallel limbs
More linear transfer of energy
Really? I would have thought that the transfer of energy on a compound would be extremely nonlinear. Is it necessarily a bad thing?

[Patchy]

Brace height is the only thing that could even be associated with forgivness the longer the BH less chance of grip stuff ups, but i find 7" is plenty any more is just a waste of speed as the stroke isnt as long.
As marcus stated before forgiviness (if there is such a thing) comes down to a good release and no other.
You could have a rock solid float holding perfectly still on the X and fudge the triger and you would be quite lucky to hit a 8 it all comes down to using your release devise properly.

[Marcus]

a. brace height
Smaller brace height more acceleration given to arrow but less accuracy.
I don't believe this is true. I think the brace height depends on the archer's draw length and as long as it is within a minimum range so the string doesn't hit your wrist then they will all shoot pretty much the same.

[New Tricks]

The human only touches the bow in two places. The grip and the string. These are the only two places that I feel need to be 'forgiving' but to the archer. The grip needs to have the lines and cut outs that allow the archer to have a repeatable positioning of the hand. Does not matter what it is (compound) as long as it is the same every time. Many of today's bows have the back side (the part where the rest bolts on) sticking a good 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch from the end of the grip on that side.

This open up thumb torque possibilities. If you do it the same fine, but if you don't left and rights as well as low shots are coming your way. I have played with this quite a bit. My Apex 7 is a bit of a shocker in the grip area but I have stuffed around and can get a reasonably repeatable grip going on. The new Gen 2 pearson was not the greatest for my high bow hand thumb. To describe my thumb, imagine the Fonz going Aaayyyeeee. Whack that left hand in the grip and that is how I hold a bow with the nuckles at around 45 degrees.

The other point of contact is the string. We have noses, cheeks, lips and release aides. I use the cheek and lip combo as well as the nose for consistent head placement. Perhaps with different face shapes a different ATA would allow for more consistency. This would be archer to archer. The other point is the release aid. This then comes back to technique and the twisting of the string. Again ATA comes into play to allow for a decent anchor point while still getting positive face contact.

I recall looking at Ragsdale with his PSE bows in the 80s and 90s. He only touched the string to his nose and rolled his head over. His release was dead level though. Those things (fire flites frommemory) were in the low 40inch ATA. I shoot a 30" draw 38 ATA. Anything less I feel I will not be able to repeat my anchor. I am right on the limit with a straight head and just barely touch the string.

[James Park]

And why, exactly, do you want to have the string touching your head?

[New Tricks]

I don't know if that is J Park humour of a reply to my post. Please elaborate so I can lay smack ASAP.

[James Park]

I can see good reasons to have the string touching your head for recurve, as that is part of getting a consistent rear sight.
However, for compound your peep does that for you. I do see many compounders trying to ensure that their nose touches the string and usually find that results in poor form with their head tipped at an angle.

[Mark M]

I think forgiveness is a direct relation to an archers form and other factors.Brace height being the most important when you get brace heights below seven inches this tends to show up any bad form.axle to axle length is not so critical now days but brace height will always effect how forgiving a bow is. 8)

[Patchy]

But what if you have a low anchor like mine Its a bit had not to have the string touch a part of your face

[New Tricks]

I can see good reasons to have the string touching your head for recurve, as that is part of getting a consistent rear sight.
However, for compound your peep does that for you. I do see many compounders trying to ensure that their nose touches the string and usually find that results in poor form with their head tipped at an angle.

I will get timmsy to take a snap of me tomorrow to show my head form. While it is very handsome, it will also show my style. Obviuosly I will get T Ragsdale on film as well as he is doing something wrong. Silly, silly man.

[James Park]

I am not saying "it must not touch your face", simply that it is irrelevant.

[primal]

Alot of people worry about the string contacting there face in compound i think its a left over from recurve coaches and reformed recurve shooters (the ones who have turned to the good side of the force) preaching the merits of multiple forms of reference and thus... repeatability. i have a 40" ata bow, i only have the string touch my face at the bottom of my lip. staight on. anyways i digress.

so we see alot of people in this discussion coming back to one thing..... FORM. so why do people Crap on and on and on about this thing called forgivness?

ok so there should only be two points of contact in compound archery. both of which are hands. screw either up and say "hello" to a bad shot. so should forgiveness extend to release's as well then??????

[primal]

ttt