Ruling out risers for standard class

[reversehaven]

I'm not sure if i've posted this in the right section (moderator please help me move it to an appropriate section)

But anyway, I just want to ask, is the Win & Win Xpert NX a riser that is allowed to be used in standard class competitions?

The point of contention is that apart from other risers, this riser has two parts of it made of carbon, and I ask this because the organisers have disallowed me to use the riser due to that two carbon parts. They claim that it gives me an unfair advantage over other standard class shooters (which i believe to be total bullcrap).

I'm having the competition tomorrow, and i'm going to have another talk with the organiser and hopefully be able to persuade him to let me use this riser. However I would like to ask for everyone's opinion.

The case is this: there are no rulings in the FITA rulebooks that say anything against using risers with carbon parts, and neither do the local or house rules say anything against using risers with carbon parts. They do, however have a line right at the bottom of the house rules, that reserves their rights to change any rules without prior notice.

Do they have a right to disqualify me? or do i have the right to fight back since they don't have any written rules against my riser?

[John K]

I assume you've looked at this:

http://www.archery.org/clients/fita/web/pdf.nsf/$All/2E651B44E32D6D04C12570CF004D7F2A/$File/2006RulesENG_Book2.pdf?OpenElement

Section 7.3.2.1 - "The bow will be of a simple design, either a take-apart type (with wooden or metal riser) or of one-piece construction. In both types of bow the limbs will be of wooden and/or fibreglass construction."

So, the NX, being of carbon and metal construction, falls outside this definition. However, it seems to me to be an oversight rather than an explicit ban.

[Owen]

I assume you've looked at this:

http://www.archery.org/clients/fita/web/pdf.nsf/$All/2E651B44E32D6D04C12570CF004D7F2A/$File/2006RulesENG_Book2.pdf?OpenElement

Section 7.3.2.1 - "The bow will be of a simple design, either a take-apart type (with wooden or metal riser) or of one-piece construction. In both types of bow the limbs will be of wooden and/or fibreglass construction."

So, the NX, being of carbon and metal construction, falls outside this definition. However, it seems to me to be an oversight rather than an explicit ban.

So that means that FX, Extreme, Winex limbs etc should also not be allowed as they have foam in them???

[Marcus]

Reember that standard class is there so people can compete with cheap gear, the NX falls outside the sipirt of it as well.

[Drummo]

that's ridiculous. if you're permitted to shoot with them at an international level, what's the difference between that and a state or national level? the rules are still set out by fita, and should be enforced with consistency at all levels, regardless.

fita really do need to update their definitions anyway. not many people nowadays are shooting limbs of pure "wooden and/or fibreglass construction". the majority of modern limbs don't even have those materials in them!

even with that said, it doesn't give one person an advantage over another person. the majority of the bows on the market are well and truly capable of shooting 1300+ scores, irrespective of what they're constructed of. it's all in the archer, not the equipment. competition officials need a reality check.

but also, the officials in this case might be going upon the principle of 'expressio unius, exclusio alterius.' the expression of one is to the exclusion of others.

[Drummo]

sorry, double post.

[Archangel]

that's ridiculous. if you're permitted to shoot with them at an international level, what's the difference between that and a state or national level? the rules are still set out by fita, and should be enforced with consistency at all levels, regardless.
Who says they're not enforced consistently? If they're not, most likely it'd be because the standard bow isn't shot very often, so judges aren't familiar with it.

fita really do need to update their definitions anyway. not many people nowadays are shooting limbs of pure "wooden and/or fibreglass construction". the majority of modern limbs don't even have those materials in them!
FITA may not need to update their definitions - the one used may be exactly as intended.

even with that said, it doesn't give one person an advantage over another person. the majority of the bows on the market are well and truly capable of shooting 1300+ scores, irrespective of what they're constructed of. it's all in the archer, not the equipment. competition officials need a reality check.
The majority of bows in the standard bow division aren't capable of shooting 1300, since they don't have any sights or stabilisers.

[Marcus]

Drummo look up the rules of standard division before calling it rediculous.
Standard division was designed around getting archery out to the masses in poorer areas. It is also a great way of having a division where everyone has the same gear.

[reversehaven]

Well, going back to the FITA rules, they only said riser made out of metal or wood. To be fair, it doesn't exclusively disallow parts of the riser to be made of carbon, while for the limbs, only wood/fibreglass limbs are allowed. To be fair also, it doesn't specify whether it allows parts of the riser to be carbon. However, I would still hold to the view that carbon parts are allowed, because FITA rules are updated yearly, and since the NX has been out in the market for quite some time, I believe they would have taken note of it's existence already and revised the rules to ban it from standard competition if necessary.

Anyway, i just came back from the competition. Thank goodness that the bow got through.

However I still want to know your opinion, whether I actually have an unfair advantage over other people. To me, the carbon parts are there to absorb vibration, and is practically useless without stabilisers. While it provides a better feel on the shot and definitely gives me some advantage over other people, I wouldn't think it's unfair, because all risers are engineered with minimum possible vibration in mind.

In spite of being an exceptional shooter, having proven myself in standard class on a national level for the past few competitions, I still lost to two people who were using wooden bows during this competition. Hence, I still hold that the NX doesn't give me any unfair advantage over other shooters. Not any more than the other metal risers which were easily permitted for shooting (like the samick agulla ultra, hoyt helix, ...)

[Clare Barnes]

Anyway, i just came back from the competition. Thank goodness that the bow got through.
If the judges allowed you to shoot that riser as a FITA standard bow I suggest their qualifications could be questioned.

[Drummo]

Drummo look up the rules of standard division before calling it rediculous.
Standard division was designed around getting archery out to the masses in poorer areas. It is also a great way of having a division where everyone has the same gear.
apologies. i mixed up "standard class competitions " (found in the first post) with standard division.

[Ja]

if they allowed helixes and ultras and such, id think it only fair that the Nx were allowed, because they are all top level risers.

The riser might give you some advantage, but at a standard level id say the technique were more important.

just my 2c

[StevenB]

Well, going back to the FITA rules, they only said riser made out of metal or wood. To be fair, it doesn't exclusively disallow parts of the riser to be made of carbon, while for the limbs, only wood/fibreglass limbs are allowed. To be fair also, it doesn't specify whether it allows parts of the riser to be carbon. However, I would still hold to the view that carbon parts are allowed, because FITA rules are updated yearly, and since the NX has been out in the market for quite some time, I believe they would have taken note of it's existence already and revised the rules to ban it from standard competition if necessary.


Maybe go back and read the rules, by stating the bow will be made of metal or wood excludes the use of any other substance. Also axis like risers are out as they would not pass through a 12.2cm ring

[COLOR="Blue"]7.3.2 The FITA Standard Bow equipment is defined as follows:
The requirements of article 7.3.1 will apply in their entirety with the following additional
provisions and/or modifications:
7.3.2.1 The bow will be of a simple design, either a take-apart type (with wooden or metal
riser) or of one-piece construction. In both types of bow the limbs will be of
wooden and/or fibreglass construction.
7.3.2.1.1 The bowstring material may not be of a higher specification than
Dacron.
7.3.2.1.2 The arrow rest will be of a simple, flexible or rigid design and it
will be non-adjustable. A simple non-adjustable pressure point
may be used and will be placed no further back than 2cm from
the throat (pivot point) of the handle.
7.3.2.1.3 One simple draw check indicator, audible or visual, may be used.
This indicator will give only one indication of draw length.
7.3.2.1.4 The bow sight will be of simple construction and must not include
any vertical rack and pinion or screw type of microadjustment. Lateral (windage) adjustment may be made by use of
a screw type adjuster. The sight and any attachment to which it is
fixed must comply with the Note below. The sight point may not
be a fibre optic type.
7.3.2.1.5 Any stabilization used must comply with the Note below. Torque
flight compensators must not be used.
7.3.2.1.6 Arrows must not exceed a specification of XX75 or equivalent,
and will be of an equivalent price range and performance. The
nocks will be of simple construction, either conical or insert fitting.
The points will be conical or ogival in shape. The vanes will
be of soft plastic material or of natural feathers.
7.3.2.1.7 Finger protection must not include any form of stiffening or locating
platform or similar or any device to help hold, draw and
release the string.
7.3.2.1.8 Field glasses, telescopes or any other visual aid must not be used
for spotting arrows. Shooting spectacles must not be used.
7.3.2.1.9 Accessories that are permitted include bracers (arm guards),
dress shield, bow sling, belt or ground quiver and tassel. Foot
markers may not protrude more than 1cm from the ground.
Note: The unstrung bow complete with permitted accessories (stabilization
when extended in any direction) must be able to pass
through a hole or ring of 12.2cm inside diameter

[The One]

To be fair also, it doesn't specify whether it allows parts of the riser to be carbon.

Didn't you just answer yourself here?:

Well, going back to the FITA rules, they only said riser made out of metal or wood.

[reversehaven]

Didn't you just answer yourslef here?:

well, i was just being fair by showing both sides of the controversy. They didn't say it can, neither did they say it cannot. Hence the controversy, and that's why i'm even asking in the first place. Besides the NX is the only riser which has a small part (albeit a by mass ratio of probably 2% or less) made of carbon.

I do agree with Ja. If they allow helix and agulla ultras.... i think it's only fair they allow the NX as well. I decided to use a NX because i saw helixes, matrices and other high end metal risers being used. Hence i thought a NX would be fine.

Also very true that recurve division is a very technique sport. like i said, the two people who beat me to gold and silver were both using wooden bows... In spite of me being an exceptional shooter, proven over the past few competitions (not trying to boast here or anything...) That implies the NX shouldn't be giving me any unfair advantages, because if it had, i'd easily get better scores than them.

apologies. i mixed up "standard class competitions " (found in the first post) with standard division.
what's the difference between standard class and standard division? i'm kinda new to archery and in cases like this, the terms are rather confusing to me =X

[StevenB]

are you shooting barebow? no sights or stabilisers?


if your talking about barebow, there is no division or rules provided for by FITA for outdoor target archery.

[reversehaven]

are you shooting barebow? no sights or stabilisers?


if your talking about barebow, there is no division or rules provided for by FITA for outdoor target archery.

no. not barebow. with sights but no stabilisers no plunger no other nifty gadgets. Only allowed sights. Sights with no micro tuning, and must be under 12.2cm. That's the common understanding of standard class, at least from where i am. hahaa. but i'm kinda new to archery. Been shooting just about one year.

From where I am... i don't know if it's just becuase they want more people to compete, but they seem kinda lenient on metal risers. like all metal risers are allowed. NX is in the controversy zone because the FITA rule doesn't say anything AGAINST (while being fair on the other side it doesn't say anything FOR) carbon parts on the bow.

but anyway, i wasn't the only NX there today. there was this other cute girl with an NX too. a silver one. lol. mine was a red one.

[The One]

That the riser MUST be made out of wood or metal seems quite unambiguous to me.

[Archangel]

In spite of being an exceptional shooter, having proven myself in standard class on a national level for the past few competitions, I still lost to two people who were using wooden bows during this competition. Hence, I still hold that the NX doesn't give me any unfair advantage over other shooters. Not any more than the other metal risers which were easily permitted for shooting (like the samick agulla ultra, hoyt helix, ...)
How on earth did you manage to be shooting against people with Helices in a Standard division? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't fit through the ring, and that aside, FITA explicitly ruled the Aerotec and Axis illegal for barebow divisions - I imagine they've done the same for the Helix.
If that's what other people were shooting, I can see how your NX got through!

[The One]

As has been posted on before, the requirements for the standard bow division are stringent for a reason - to enable archers to compete in a division where the equipment is not superior, and keeps the cost down to prevent unfair advantages to those who are fortunate enough to be able to afford better equipment.

If you want, post an itemised list of all of your different shooting equipment (bow, limbs, arrows, rest, plunger, sight etc.) and we can tell you which bits are legal/illegal for use in the standard bow division. Or you can alternatively check with the list StevenB has posted above from the FITA rules. If your equipment does not pass as legal for the Standard Bow division, you may want to shoot in the open recurve division instead.

[Drummo]

what's the difference between standard class and standard division? i'm kinda new to archery and in cases like this, the terms are rather confusing to me =X

i thought that you were referring to state and club tournaments when you said "standard class competitions". i didnt realise you were talking about standard division equipment.

[reversehaven]

I see. Now I understand where you all are coming from. I didn't before but thanks for all the clarification. :)

Sigh.. The singapore archery scene is kinda messed up. Well, the impression i got is that standard class is for newbies. Honestly speaking a lot of rules haven't been enforced. Like the 12.2 cm rule. somehow the helices got through because the rule wasn't enforced. Although rumour has it they want to start.

I felt it ambiguous about the metal or wood riser thing because i saw people using high end risers. So before now, I used to wonder, if high end hoyt and samick risers are allowed for standard division, why shouldn't high end w&w risers be allowed? But now i guess i understand it better.

Well in any case i'll be upping to C class soon. As soon as i get the cash for it.