Multi-venue national indoors

[Betty-Anne]

Am I the only one who thinks that this idea really sucks?????

And believe me when I say that I've heard all the pro and con arguments.

[The One]

Have you considered the difference in the numbers you would pull between the two different concepts?

[New Tricks]

Am I the only one who thinks that this idea really sucks?????




Nope

Have you considered the difference in the numbers you would pull between the two different concepts?

Lets shoot the FITA nats at 6 different venues as well. Have you considered the difference in the numbers you would pull between the two different concepts? Indoor is more dependant on surrounds that it appears the organisers admit.


It is however the way it will be done. So be it. I hope it succeeds to the point that indoor gets very popular and everybody shoots it often and we can grow the following to have an event that rivals Vegas.

[Bulls On Parade]

in a way, it's good. it opens an avenue for people who can't afford to travel interstate for a tournament. it can work out fairly expensive to travel and stay in another state (eg. airfares, renting a car and petrol for that, or your own car if you choose to drive, accommodation, etc.).

however, as New Tricks said, indoors really is more dependent on the immediate environment the archer is in. it can be unfair, because in one spot it could be freezing, another spot could be quite nice, and another spot could be scorching.

personally, i think from a competitive perspective, it's ridiculous. if i am going to shoot against someone, i want to be there right next to them to compete, rather than be 3 states away. although this point sacrifices accessibility for a lot of people, participants' in the tournament should be subjected to the exact same variables as one another.

[StevenB]

could just dump the indoor nats all together

[Marcus]

Am I the only one who thinks that this idea really sucks?????

And your idea is?

[StevenB]

And your idea is?
don't change

[Archangel]

however, as New Tricks said, indoors really is more dependent on the immediate environment the archer is in. it can be unfair, because in one spot it could be freezing, another spot could be quite nice, and another spot could be scorching.
It's hardly extremely dependant on the environment - the temperature is just about the only thing (within reason) that can vary, and it doesn't make *that* much difference to one's shooting. It's not even remotely close to how bad it would be to try an outdoor tournament this way.

We've had a split indoor nationals for some years now. Pretty much everyone prefers the idea of a single venue, but for that to work the archers would have to actually turn up, which doesn't look likely.
On the other hand, there is a chance I'd travel for a single-venue Indoors, whereas I'm not sure I'd bother driving for more than half an hour to a split venue one, petrol prices being what they are (dang turbos...).

[The One]

You also need a venue than can host everyone. In NZ, we don't ahve a venue large enough to my knowledge since we lost the one in West Auckland.

[New Tricks]

It's hardly extremely dependant on the environment - the temperature is just about the only thing (within reason) that can vary

Not even close. Lighting is the number one issue for indoor shooting and compounds. Ground lights, lights from the side, the middle, above, windows, fluros, bulbs, roller doors and so on all give different lighting and therefore make eiming easier or harder and indoor is all about aiming. Target butt construction is another. Stramit is dead flat and when mounted correctly, you have 100% of the 10 to aim at. The rag/material type butts are curved and it is near on impossible to orientate the target to get 100% of the 10 showing to you on all 3 spots. If all of these are the same then fine, when they are not, it is not a fair contest for some. That little 10 is small enough. Toss in that all states are not shooting on the same day and it becomes less of a true 'competition'.

[2Dogs]

And like your opinion counts for what??????? <>0 :D..... You Non- Archer you :)

Hey I think to have the indoor Nats like this is a great idea...... cause the other option was..... no indoor nats.

[New Tricks]

LOL.stfu puppy.

If they stopped having them in Adelaide it may stop that problem. :)

[Marcus]

Aha, and have them in Brisbane and I wouldn't bother going. (nothing against Brisbane, just too far)
Same with Perth, or even Sydney.
It's all about bringing an event like this to the archery masses and not just to those who will spend the money because they think they will win.
With over 400 competitors expected it has to be a good thing, or at worse, worth a try.

New Tricks whinging about this is like me whinging about the location of a Clout event. Why would I when I have no intention of competing anyway. :p

[New Tricks]

I had every intention of attending until it was deemed to be this multi location thing.

It really matters not. This thread asked the question and I answered. It is probably the third such thread. It gains nothing really.

I don't see why clout (like seriously wtf is clout) cannot be dropped from the Nationals and Indoor put in on the Wednesday instead at both Junior and Senior events. Everyone would be able to peak and shoot all 3 proper archery events in a row. Awsome. Finding a venue may limit clubs that can bid but realistically, what clubs without access to an indoor venue (not specific to archery like a school basketball hall/showgrounds hall/Telstra Dome or something) would bid anyway.

On a complete side note, I wonder how much Telstra Dome would cost to rent for a day. Run a 1 or 2 day Indoor FITA shot in waves. Charge a big old fee ($250 aussie) and throw it open to the world. Get all the top shots over every year somehow and make it a massive event. Could become as famous a Vegas. Have a trade show and a bunch of organised events for the people over the week. I recall they had a big computer nerd LAN there a few years ago. Would be a full time job I think. You heard it here first.

edit. I just emailed them to find out how much it would cost. LOL. Stand by to stand by.

[James Park]

Yes, the lighting does matter. However, this is entirely and completely under the control of the local group. If you want better lighting, then do something about it. It cannot possibly be used as an excuse (if you do, it will only be pointing out that you failed to do anything about it).

[Archangel]

Not even close. Lighting is the number one issue for indoor shooting and compounds. Ground lights, lights from the side, the middle, above, windows, fluros, bulbs, roller doors and so on all give different lighting and therefore make eiming easier or harder and indoor is all about aiming. Target butt construction is another. Stramit is dead flat and when mounted correctly, you have 100% of the 10 to aim at. The rag/material type butts are curved and it is near on impossible to orientate the target to get 100% of the 10 showing to you on all 3 spots. If all of these are the same then fine, when they are not, it is not a fair contest for some. That little 10 is small enough. Toss in that all states are not shooting on the same day and it becomes less of a true 'competition'.
Let me get my violin....

The lighting at a national champs should not be inadequate, and buying a few spotlights would fix it pretty quick.
I hadn't considered that someone would actually hold an indoor champs on one of those bulgy targets, but I bet there's a FITA rule somewhere that says the target indoors should be flat, not warped around some weird butt.

I agree that it makes it less of a competition, but it strikes me it'd be possible to fix beforehand rather than complaining after - of course, you may not necessarily know it'll be a problem before ;-)

[New Tricks]

Yes, the lighting does matter. However, this is entirely and completely under the control of the local group. If you want better lighting, then do something about it. It cannot possibly be used as an excuse (if you do, it will only be pointing out that you failed to do anything about it).


NO NO NO NO NO. This is a common issue in this sport. See the other threads re politics. While I personally would do something about it, which is exactly what I have done, it should not be up to the individual to act. Lets get into the bigger picture. If for example an AFL player thought the forward pocket on a particular ground was a bit dull or bright, they would not go and source new/different/better lights. They would mention to team management and they would go through the AFL (AA in our case) who would then look at the intention of the game and the integrity of play and fix it accordingly.

[Archangel]

NO NO NO NO NO. This is a common issue in this sport. See the other threads re politics. While I personally would do something about it, which is exactly what I have done, it should not be up to the individual to act. Lets get into the bigger picture. If for example an AFL player thought the forward pocket on a particular ground was a bit dull or bright, they would not go and source new/different/better lights. They would mention to team management and they would go through the AFL (AA in our case) who would then look at the intention of the game and the integrity of play and fix it accordingly.
We don't have team managers 'cos it's an individual sport - so you could mention it to the organisers of a particular venue, and hopefully they'd fix it. Stands a better chance of getting results than complaining afterwards.

[New Tricks]

..

afterwards.


The date for the championshp with be the 15th and 16th July and will consist of a double FITA 1 Indoor (18m)

Today's date is June 22

much gruffness

[James Park]

So, you are happy to see a problem, not do anything about it, and then complain that it was a problem?
This should be seen as a good opportunity to encourage archers to shoot indoors, to encourage RGB's to think about venues, etc.

[Archangel]

Uhm, I'm confused. If the tournament hasn't happened yet, how do you know the lighting is going to be a disaster? Or is it as James says, that you'd rather have something to complain about than fix it?

[New Tricks]

I don't see any problem at all as the event is going to be held under already decided conditions. Those conditions are not to my liking and I am electing not to participate. Much like a Target Archer choosing not to shoot a 3D round.

Once again I state that it will be great for participation levels (fudged accounting). As most states are running the event in conjunction with their own state champs, is the participation level really higher? It is just charging an extra fee for a score on a different list. As Paul said above, it is better than having no Nationals. Well apart from handing out some medals (in the mail) it is exactly the same.

[New Tricks]

Uhm, I'm confused. If the tournament hasn't happened yet, how do you know the lighting is going to be a disaster? Or is it as James says, that you'd rather have something to complain about than fix it?


I am completely aware of the conditions that will be shot at at various venues. I am aware that conditions at certain venues are not as good as others.

[Bulls On Parade]

It's hardly extremely dependant on the environment - the temperature is just about the only thing (within reason) that can vary, and it doesn't make *that* much difference to one's shooting. It's not even remotely close to how bad it would be to try an outdoor tournament this way.

i didn't mean "extremely" dependant. temperature is only one variable. it was only an example, albeit the most obvious. each environmental condition has its own effects in one way or another.

[Coghlan]

There is good and bad to everything

Good

- more people get to shoot
- better than no Indoor Nationals

Bad

- Variations, lighting, different Judges (one gives a 9 and in the other state the same shot scores a 10), venue, and no Clint or Zoran standing next to you pegging 10 after 10, hang on, maybe that should be in the Good part....

Remember this is just one year, and a trial, potentially Indoor could be part of the Nationals in April and we could have clout as a postal......!!

My vote is always going to be for one venue, the pressure is what makes it fun, but if the choice is not having a shoot at all....wheres the fun in that.

Pat

[cschach]

I live in Adelaide; the location of the last few (as far as I know) indoor nationals.

So, you would think that, assuming I was selfish, I would think that continuing with this would be great.

Thing is, last nationals only about 20 participated in SMC. That doesn't give a very good sense of where you stand in a Nation of hundreds of SMCs. I would much rather compete against more archers than ensure a totally level playing field.

[The One]

I'm sorry, but I still can't understand how lighting can be such an issue...? Surely the sight should still be in the middle of the gold?

[Clare Barnes]

...different Judges (one gives a 9 and in the other state the same shot scores a 10), ...

You'd hope not but there again you could perhaps get that variation within the one venue. For that reason good head judges try to ensure that the same judge is not allocated the same targets to look after for an entire event.

[Archangel]

You'd hope not but there again you could perhaps get that variation within the one venue. For that reason good head judges try to ensure that the same judge is not allocated the same targets to look after for an entire event.
I can think of examples - the other judges tend to get quite upset if you try to call a specific one though :-)
"Judge! I need a line call! No, wait, not you..."

[Brett k]

If it is such a concern why dont we make a standard lighting condition? in following years this could be easily achived, with a simple inexpensive lightmeter.
Colour temperature is less important than illumination,so a simple standard could be achived cheaply and easily.

As far as the competition side of things is concerned there is no substitute for having the other people there, however the idea of having live link up over the web could be achived in the future.

How about people give things a go? The indoor nats needs a change this system may not work, but its worth a try.

[frommy]

I'm sorry, but I still can't understand how lighting can be such an issue...? Surely the sight should still be in the middle of the gold?

In compound, you need enough light so you can see through the peep sight. Several years ago ASNSW State Indoor was hosted a few times by UniNSW (thanks Recurve Boy) in their examination centre, which was previously a bowling alley.

The lighting on the faces was terrific, as the targets were on the side of the room where the pins would once have been. However the lighting emphasis was on that side of the room, not on where the shooting line was.

I was using a clarifier peep on my set-up at that time, and all I could see through the peep was a vague blur of gold.

I have prevously shot Indoor Nats in a basketball stadium at Wollongong and the lighting was very uneven accross the target butts. Not good either.

Brian

[Action Man]

Is anyone here actually involved in hosting one of these events this year?
AA may have issued guidelines, including lighting levels, for host venues.
I'd be interested to know. If not, it might be a good idea for next year.

[Marcus]

AA's position is this:
Each state should WANT their state to produce the champions and if the state feels that the best way to achieve this is having a better venue than the other states (lighting, heating etc) and put teh effort in then they may well be successful.
If you state decides to use poor lighting then it's up to the members fom that state to do something about it, even, dare I say it, put your hand up to run it.

Hosting again in SA.
A few said "why not have SA run it again? Because the people organising it don't want to.
The biggest thing I see in this thread is that those asking for it to continue as it was do not run these shoots. It's a massive undertaking, and even bigger if you also have to do one for your state championships.
Because few (none) clubs can host an indoor nationals the logistics and wastage involved in massive.
Think about it. 40 butts of stramitt, all useless at the end of the event. Possibly $7000 worth of material in the bin afterwards. Plus transporting, organising, setup, processing, cleanup etc etc. Most of which won't leave a legacy to the host club or state.
It's very very draining on those involved. At the AA Nationals at DVA many of us worked 18 hour days for it and I know I personally lost 8kgs of weight in that one week. (I know Jim lost a fair bit too)

I loved going to Adelaide ach year and shooting the Nats, had a great time, and each time I would turn up to the venue and think "wow, you guys are nuts for doing this"

So while you are calling for things to remain the same forget about minor concerns like lighting and standing next to the big guy, instead think about the logistics of running an event like this, the work involved for no pay, finding a state each year to hold it who must find a venue, and the cost to competitors. Think about the fact that most people will be shooting in their first National event this year even though many may have been in teh sport for quite a number of years.

Finally an event is as big and as important as we the archers make it. If you say it doesn't mean anything, and if you win, please hand the medal back.

[Archangel]

At the AA Nationals at DVA many of us worked 18 hour days for it and I know I personally lost 8kgs of weight in that one week. (I know Jim lost a fair bit too)
You should market that, there's money to be made in weight loss products!
I thought you were meant to lose about half a kg a day if you didn't eat anything, so it's obviously pretty effective ;-)

[frommy]

Marcus,

Very good comments. Although I will not be competing in this event, I have always agreed with the concepts expressed in your message.

Brian

[Ed]

I can think of examples - the other judges tend to get quite upset if you try to call a specific one though :-)
"Judge! I need a line call! No, wait, not you..."

No can do! The judge who gives the line call is the one "assigned to those targets" - so the archers can't pick and choose. Anyhow the judges rotate at tournaments so that each judge covers all sections of butts.

[The One]

In compound, you need enough light so you can see through the peep sight.

Thanks :)

[Oldtimer]

Having shot in lots of indoor venues, I can attest that lighting can be a problem, even within the one venue. The best venue I can recall was the Indoor Tennis centre in Ballarat. I shot at one site with the traffic lights in my vision when I was sighting. Flinched a few times when they changed to amber, but you just learn to accept those things, try to concentrate better, and do your best anyway. Do you decide not to shoot a tournament because the weather is not to your liking ? However, if you are serious, you don't just pack up and go home, or not even turn up, because the weather isn't the best or you perceive that your shooting position isn't as advantageous as so-and-so's. That's archery. Think of it as a challenge, grin, bear it, and get on with it.

[mrlogan]

Well I went to toowoomba last year and had a great time, the first big indoors fo r me.

The big thing for me was that a lot of my club members also went and we had a great time, we had a big dinner and got together at the shoot.

The indoor is not only about shooting good score, its about having a good time and meeting new people plus getting together with people you know.

Sure, good scores get you a medal, but I enjoy meeting people or seeing good shooter shoot as much as getting a good medal.

As far as I am concerned the differernt venues mean bugger all, I will shoot at toowooba and enjoy it for the sport it is, no medals just archery and damb good archery at that.

mrlogan.

[PeterBennett]

As one of the venues for the National Indoor, my club Twin City Archers Gippsland has spent a lot of time money and plain hard work ensuring that the lighting at this venue is the best we could get. We have a continuous row of Flouros above the targets with reflectors above them to aim the light and triphosphor tubes to simulate daylight, as well as an extra row of flouros above the shooting line to help with peeps and string picture. The venue itself is ours also built with a lot of hard work by a few people and work for the dole. We have 18 permanent targets which are flat stramit in front but plastic and wetsuit behind. we can run 144 competitors in 2 flights and if needed 216 competitors in 3 flights. I like the idea that Marcus and Jim have come up with as it keeps the National indoors going, at least its worth a try. I
hope to see as many archers as possible shooting this event, with hopefully the biggest group from Victoria.

[bigfella]

As one of the venues for the National Indoor, my club Twin City Archers Gippsland has spent a lot of time money and plain hard work ensuring that the lighting at this venue is the best we could get. We have a continuous row of Flouros above the targets with reflectors above them to aim the light and triphosphor tubes to simulate daylight, as well as an extra row of flouros above the shooting line to help with peeps and string picture. The venue itself is ours also built with a lot of hard work by a few people and work for the dole. We have 18 permanent targets which are flat stramit in front but plastic and wetsuit behind. we can run 144 competitors in 2 flights and if needed 216 competitors in 3 flights. I like the idea that Marcus and Jim have come up with as it keeps the National indoors going, at least its worth a try. I
hope to see as many archers as possible shooting this event, with hopefully the biggest group from Victoria.

Well now you know, the boys and girls in good old Vic are going to have the best lighting in the country for the indoors. No wonder they are saying suck it and see.

Wonder if I can transfer my entry from Toowoomba to Morwell??

[Clare Barnes]

You can shoot it in whatever damn RGB you want.

I thought the SQ whinge was that you wouldn't have "real competition" alongside you? If you think so little of your fellow SQ archers perhaps you should also consider TAS or NSW or SA? :-?

[bigfella]

You can shoot it in whatever damn RGB you want.

I thought the SQ whinge was that you wouldn't have "real competition" alongside you? If you think so little of your fellow SQ archers perhaps you should also consider TAS or NSW or SA? :-?

Pull your claws in Clare

[bigfella]

I believe that the 2006 National Indoors are to become a "postal" tournament doing away with the centralised concept that has operated up until now.

Many competitors that I spoke to in Adelaide expressed their disappointment that a single venue wont be used next year and that the character of the indoors will be lost.

Also expressed was the concern over the ability of state RGB's to ensure that the conditions at each venue would be comparable eg lighting.. how do you make sure that each RGB is able to ensure that the lighting is no better or worse than in other venues. There are other variables that also raised some concern ie some RGB's shooting in comfortable 20c + temps and others shooting in 10c, some shooting in strammit and others shooting in soft butts.

These questions raise issues that AA and the RGB's must solve if the 2006 National Indoors are going to be contested on an equal footing by all competitors.

I posted this a year ago and the concerns that I expressed then are no less legitimate now than they were then .

Alright, the concept is with us on a "trial" basis for this year and we have to make the best of it we can. Good luck to the Vics with their venue. I have seen it having shot there at the outdoor nationals and it is truly a credit to the great hard work that the membership have put in to develop their facilities. Am I crude enough to suggest that those taking part in Victoria will be shooting in the best facilities in Oz. I think that goes without saying and good luck to them.

The anomolies come when you look at the facilities in other places and comments in this thread suggest that we motivate our RGB's to improve the facilities. This may be easier said than done.

I have written to our RGB's executive and also met with them expressing my concern regarding soft butts that don't hold target faces securely or square to the shooting line or that allow arrows to be displaced from their original position, lighting that is variable, outside sunlight striking some archers at different times of the day and other variables.

The promise that lighting would be improved and that strammit butts would be offered to those requesting them. For various reasons strammit will now not be offered but instead the butts will be repacked and the lighting improved. Well I suppose, now we will have to suck it and see.

I know all the reasons why it is claimed to be a good thing to have a multi-venue indoor nationals, and the access of more of the fraternity to the tournament is a valid one. However, There will be archers in all states trying to win the Nationals, some in the premium venues and others in venues that may be sadly lacking the facilities that are essential to ensure that all have an equal chance.

At the risk of repeating myself, it is my view that AA should provide a set of guidelines to the RGB's that determine a minimum level of facility necessary to hold the regional part of the competition. These guidelines should provide for minimum standard of lighting, and information on acceptable standards of butt. It would appear that this has not been done even though I requested my RGB to place a request to AA for this to happen.

It is alright for some to say that they go to the their venues for the enjoyment and many go knowing that they don't have ghost of a chance of winning. Fair enough, that is a good enough reason to go, but the tournament is a National Championships and there are people who go who try to win and that is also a valid purpose of the tournemant. Anyhow, I do enjoy going to Toowoomba and shooting the indoors there. I do enjoy making contact with friends again and I have a good time. I also try to do my best in the circumstances of the competition. It is unfortunate that the circumstances of the competition in some places will be less than appropriate than in others.

The only way to ensure that all competitors have the opportunity of competing on an equal footing is to shoot in the one venue.

[bigfella]

I thought the SQ whinge was that you wouldn't have "real competition" alongside you? If you think so little of your fellow SQ archers perhaps you should also consider TAS or NSW or SA? :-?

I haven't seen any comment in this thread re "real competition" so I have to wonder where you get that impression from. The arguments that I have read have been simply regarding the different conditions in which archers will compete in each state.

[Clare Barnes]

Indoor is the only event that can be run at different venues giving all archers approximately the same conditions. Think of it also as an event to show all AA archers that competing can be fun. You can still make a holiday of it and go and shoot the event in whatever state you want.

Given the personal choice of having Clout or Indoor run at the Junior and Open Nats I would prefer Indoor, but unless that happens soon this way of running an Indoor event seems a worthwhile option to try.

If you feel the 2006 option for the Indoor Nationals devalues the title don't enter (New Tricks has chosen this option knowing full well he would win if competing at the same venue as everyone else :roll:). USA and NZ archers seem to cope ok with the concept. Can I assume SQ with you as Chair of the organising committee will be running the 2007 Indoor event? :-?

[bigfella]

Indoor is the only event that can be run at different venues giving all archers approximately the same conditions. Think of it also as an event to show all AA archers that competing can be fun. You can still make a holiday of it and go and shoot the event in whatever state you want.

Given the personal choice of having Clout or Indoor run at the Junior and Open Nats I would prefer Indoor, but unless that happens soon this way of running an Indoor event seems a worthwhile option to try.

If you feel the 2006 option for the Indoor Nationals devalues the title don't enter (New Tricks has chosen this option knowing full well he would win if competing at the same venue as everyone else :roll:). USA and NZ archers seem to cope ok with the concept. Can I assume SQ with you as Chair of the organising committee will be running the 2007 Indoor event? :-?

I have not said that I think that the 2006 option devalues the title. I have said that the option gives competitors in some states over others because of the differences in venue and resources. As I mentioned last year and in my request to my RGB a minimum set standards relating to variables should have been set by AA so that all competitors had the opportunity of competing on an equal footing.

Re holding a single venue championship in SQ, Marcus said that he wouldn't come because its too far, so what would be the point.

[Clare Barnes]

Re holding a single venue championship in SQ, Marcus said that he wouldn't come because its too far, so what would be the point.
Hey Marcus, someone loves you! :D

[The One]

Hey Marcus, someone loves you! :D

Was just thinking that!

[frommy]

In a perfect archery world we would have multiple venues accross Oz. We would also have those venues to be clones of the perfect model for indoor archery. Dream on.

In the alternative we would have a single venue, lets say Adelaide, for the purposes of the exercise, to which very few people would travel to compete. Gee. I think that has been tried! :rolleyes:

If any RGB gets a crap venue, then that is the problem of a member of that RGB, and, as previously mentioned by others, the clubs and membership should apply pressure to the RGB to ensure better conditions.

For f's sake, lets give give this a try. I am really looking forward as to how it might develop.

Brian

[ec]

if lighting on the shooting line is a valid issue just set a standard shooting line light level for hosts to comply with..problem solved..all venues will have the same standard to meet.

[Marcus]

Well now you know, the boys and girls in good old Vic are going to have the best lighting in the country for the indoors. No wonder they are saying suck it and see.
There are 2 ways I can take this post
1) Seriously. In which case you are accusing us of conspiracy by making our venue better than yours and forcing you to compete in inferiour conditions (I am sure that the organisers of your event will be pleased you think so little of it after all their hard work)
2) Patronizing. Peter has said they have put heaps of work in to make their venue great and obviously you don't think so.

Anyway I am not too fussed what bigfella thinks of it. Please run the National Indoor without me, you can do that. ;)

[New Tricks]

(New Tricks has chosen this option knowing full well he would win if competing at the same venue as everyone else :roll:).


Sigh. You need to stop e-Stalking me. Obviously one of my many fans.

I note we now have an ignore list, welcome to it.

[James Park]

I don't think it is at all necessary for AA to set minimum lighting conditions. Simply leave it to the archers in the RGB to do something to improve things like lighting where they see it to be necessary.
I would much rather compete in poor lighting than to not compete at all.
I too have competed in the National Indoor at various venues around Australia, and the low number of competitors who will actually travel interstate for such an event does devalue the event For example, I have competed in Adelaide when none of Clint, Zoran, Brian or Pat were able to be there - I would much rather have an event where all of those top archers and others could be involved, as will be the case in the way we are doing it in 2006. It means much more in that case to be a National Champion (harder to win of course, but that it good - I am very much against the concept of "National Champion" where the number of competitors in your category was very low).

[The One]

Many competitors that I spoke to in Adelaide expressed their disappointment that a single venue wont be used next year and that the character of the indoors will be lost.


Of course this only takes into account that fact that you were getting opinions from those who already support the idea of a single venue Nationals. Those who thought it was a bad idea might not be there in the first place.

Look, when it comes right down to it, there is currently no ideal course of action at this point in time, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

As Jim has said, the idea of having a National Champion where there are very few competitors, and often not the top competitors, is rather misleading.

If you want an ideal result, which isn't going to happen overnight, find a venue that it large enough to take a couple of hundred archers, and actively promote indoor archery. If indoors gets enough backing, you won't be in the situation where the top competitors do not travel to attend. Of course, then you would have to ask yourself whether that effort is best spent on indoor or another area...

[StevenB]

if AA set guidelines, will the RGBs follow them?

[James Park]

if AA set guidelines, will the RGBs follow them?
I think it would be wrong to set guidelines. Leave it to the RGB's. It would be unnecessary beaurocracy.

[cschach]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to travel to a superior venue to gain an advantage?

Anyone....?

[James Park]

bigfella would certainly be welcome in Victoria, but would probably freeze.
At the Nationals in April we Victorians were walking around in t shirts, while the Queenslanders had big coats on. I did not think it was at all cold then, and it will be much colder in July.

[Clare Barnes]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to travel to a superior venue to gain an advantage?

Anyone....?

I can just see them flocking to Adelaide to shoot 2 Indoor 18m rounds in the one day over tables and chairs in the canteen at Mitsubishi! :rolleyes: :D

[Archangel]

bigfella would certainly be welcome in Victoria, but would probably freeze.
At the Nationals in April we Victorians were walking around in t shirts, while the Queenslanders had big coats on. I did not think it was at all cold then, and it will be much colder in July.
It wasn't so much cold in Morwell as bloody freezing!
Wasn't too bad during the day (on decent days anyway, not the practice) but it was a lot colder there than it was at home!

[Archangel]

I wonder if anyone would be willing to travel to a superior venue to gain an advantage?

Anyone....?
You don't sound like a true archer, it's clear to everyone else that it's preferable to compete at a 'substandard' venue and complain afterwards than to do something proactive about it :-)

[cschach]

I can just see them flocking to Adelaide to shoot 2 Indoor 18m rounds in the one day over tables and chairs in the canteen at Mitsubishi! :rolleyes: :D

Sh! Clare, you're giving it away. Resting back on one of those big concrete pillars on the shooting line is a good trick - gotta be worth a few points.

Hmm.. Come to think of it...

Hey Peter B., got any space left there in Morwell?

[bbird]

Greetings Everyone,

I've been following this thread for a couple of days now and am most interested in the comments that have been posted to date. And so I thought I'd give my two bob's worth as well, given that I will be involved as a competitor and as one of the people in South Queensland who will be assisting in the staging of the event in Toowoomba.

Firstly, I must state that I personally am in favour of a seperate National Indoor Title tournament rather than one that is held simultaenously in all states (or as near to that as possible) because I believe that Indoor is a vastly under-valued discipline in Australia and it would be good to have a few more events and tournaments of this type for those archers who want to attend them. Personally, I had plans of travelling to some of the other interstate championships this year until the new format was announced.

Be that as it may, the format for this year's tournament is as stated, a multi-venue shoot in different States on almost the same weekend. And As 2 Dogs and Marcus have said, better to try something new to increase participation rates and to at least have an indoor event that would have otherwise not been held.

From what I can determine, through reading the posts to date the arguments against the format appear to fall into two categories:

1. Lack of "head-to-head" competition against other top archers around the country.

2. The difficulty of maintaining a set standard of consistency between the venues in reference to lighting, target butts / surfaces.

3. Overall cost to host RGB's and also individual clubs, including a lack of volunteers willing to assist with such events.

So , for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on the matter.

Firstly, the argument about competition head-to head and pressure actually mystifies me a little. Throughout my archery "career", I've really only ever competed against one person, myself, and that arbitrary indicator of my ability, the possible score.

Usually at a tournament, I'm so absorbed in what I'm doing that I really don't know how other people are shooting or what their scores are. At the end of the shoot, I might have a look to see how I went compared to other archers on the line and if my score was good enough well, I might have been lucky to get a medal.

More often than not, better archers than me edged me out of the gongs but at the end of the day, if I bettered or came close to my personal best score, I was usually satisifed, providing I felt I shot well.

The issue of maintaining a standard of consistency for the event is a valid point and one that can be relatively easily addressed through establishing set guidelines that should be followed where possible.

Other sports have such guidelines. Tennis for example has a stringent set of conditions for playing events. Lighting must be of a particular type and the court surface must be lit to an average of 450 lux over the entire playing area for a venue to be used for play at night.

So why can't we as a sporting organisation develop a set of guidelines for such events? If a directive came out from Archery Australia explaining that each RGB had to provide an indoor venue that met certain criteria including type of target butt material, a flat, vertical surface and the venue to be lit to a minimum lux rating then RGB's would have to locate suitable venues to stage the event.

There have been a few comments on this forum thread, that seem to imply that the venue for the indoor in South Queensland in Toowoomba is substandard due to the material and construction of the target butts and the lighting levels.

I would like to point out that in South Queensland, none of the affiliated clubs has a purpose-built indoor venue. I'm not sure what happens in other states, but until there is a purpose built indoor venue of a common standard set down, this debate will always rage.

The Toowoomba Company of Archers, as the host club for the event in South Queensland, does endeavour to provide the best possible venue, with the resources that it has available. When the Toowoomba Company of Archers drew up a cost estimate to stage the event this year (assuming that EVERYTHING was outsourced) the total came to approximately $ 9900. And that did not include the purchase of stramit targets and stands to be used.

I believe that it is unreasonable to expect a single club to provide that sort of infrastructure for a single tournament once a year. That is why this year the RGB has come to the party and assisted with a lot of the infrastructure that needs to be provided for the event.

The TCA has only four people who are working on the majority of the preparations and, fortunately, some members of the SQAS executive committee have offered their assistance to help set up the venue on the day before the tournament.

I firmly believe that if the sport wants these major events to be conducted in a professional manner, then we really need to start looking towards getting professional event managers and coordinators to be involved in some way. I know that there are funding and grant opportunities in Queensland for hosting events of national or state importance for instance. I'm not sure if such funding is available to other RGB's.

Really what it is all about is simply putting on the best tournament we possibly can with the best infrastructure and resources that we have available at the time.

Archery Australia, each RGB or club for that matter will never please everyone all of the time and each archer has the right and privilege to compete or not compete wherever he or she chooses.

But please remember one thing, everyone. The sport itself that is more important than any individual, club, RGB or even the National Organisation.

Whatever we all do, should be for the benefit, improvement and development of the sport.

Apologies for the length of the post, but I wanted to address the issues as I see them.

[StevenB]

Firstly, I must state that I personally am in favour of a seperate National Indoor Title tournament rather than one that is held simultaenously in all states (or as near to that as possible) because I believe that Indoor is a vastly under-valued discipline in Australia and it would be good to have a few more events and tournaments of this type for those archers who want to attend them. Personally, I had plans of travelling to some of the other interstate championships this year until the new format was announced.


There is a reason it is under-valued.

It would be good for a few more indoors to be run through the year, but running the nats at simultaneous venues doesn't stop this from happening.

You might have had plans to attend a few of the shoots, but how many other people would as well, SFA I would guess, less than those who make the effort to get to the indoor nats in the past.


I firmly believe that if the sport wants these major events to be conducted in a professional manner, then we really need to start looking towards getting professional event managers and coordinators to be involved in some way. I know that there are funding and grant opportunities in Queensland for hosting events of national or state importance for instance. I'm not sure if such funding is available to other RGB's.


already been done, '97 Balarat Junior and Senior Nationals, that had the indoor run a few days before the shoot.

[Brocky]

I thought NSW had plenty of competition.

[Brocky]

Frommy are you shooting the indoor.

[Brocky]

Archy just another Kiwi that comes complains leaves arrives home and still complains, if your not a Bondi its just not Australia ;)

[James Park]

There have been a few comments on running the outdoor and indoor Nationals at the same time.
I think this has only been done in 1997 in Ballarat.
Having run several Nationals already (1974, 2005, and significant parts of 2006), I can very firmly say that running such an event is a very major undertaking. I would much rather drop something off (the clout is the obvious thing) than add something additional.
Note that running the indoor is a task of significant size and complexity (and much more so than the clout), and it requires quite a lot of infrastructure (let along a good venue in which to run it).
Some might say (unwisely, I think) that such a major undertaking could be accommodated at Twin City Archers or DVA. However, my experience is that you very much need the indoor area to be available during the Nationals for many things instead of shooting, so I would not do it.
Hence, don't get too enthusiastic about such ideas, consider the practicality first. It is quite a good thing to put yourself in the shoes of the organiser rather than a competitor in thinking about these things - puts quite a different perspective on things. ("If I was the Chairman of the Organising Committee, would I die before the event finished, or shortly afterwards"?)

[PeterBennett]

In reply to cschach as Clare has said you are able to shoot in any venue in Australia, so there would be room if you wished.

In reply to Bigfella, who said Victoria is saying suck it and see because we have the best lighting, the venue in question did not even have a roof on it till just before christmas, and the rest was a rush to get it ready for the Nationals, since that time we have worked hard on the lighting and targets, but the National being held multi-venue was already in place before all this work was done. we at TCAG have worked to make this a great venue, and if by doing so we give other rgb's, clubs or individuals the ideas or drive to do the same then that is to the benefit of the sport.

As to running the Indoor at the Nationals as Jim has said that is a lot of extra work, and we needed the indoor range at this years Nats for socialising, meetings, for John Dudleys seminars, medal presentations, food serving, and if the weather turned bad, (thank god it didn't), somewhere to hide.

Thanks
Peter

[frommy]

To me this debate increases my appreciation of the work that went into the World Masters Games in Melbourne 2002.

Brian