Tournaments with restricted entry

[James Park]

I can see a role for both open entry and restricted entry tournaments.
In fact I have run both over the years:
- I ran a "Masters Tournament" back in about 1979 at Monash University, where we had the Team for the World Target Championships compete against a set of selected experts in an endeavour to push the standards higher. We had them shoot a double FITA round over two days, and did attract some sponsorship. We tried to do this in a way that others would be attracted to come and watch. (Note that here "Masters" meant "expert", not "old").
- I ran a day for Bryce Lee when he was preparing for the 2001 World Target Championships. I gathered together 6 experts to give him some very good competition over a ranking round and then one on one matchplay. We did attract many spectators, and had about $600 as prize money if he could beat us (and to make sure that pressured him even more).
I think that these type of events, run in the right way, and not too frequently, can be good both for the experts and for everyone else.
Aside from those special events, I very much agree that we want our events to generally be open to all.
I would also like to have the freedom to run closed events where experts are excluded. (Note that in Archery Victoria we do not at present have the freedom to run sanctioned closed events - AV rules preclude them. We must change this.)

[Hannah]

I think that these type of events, run in the right way, and not too frequently, can be good both for the experts and for everyone else.
Aside from those special events, I very much agree that we want our events to generally be open to all.
I would also like to have the freedom to run closed events where experts are excluded. (Note that in Archery Victoria we do not at present have the freedom to run sanctioned closed events - AV rules preclude them. We must change this.)

Good point regarding 'masters' events for promotion purposes.

Out of curiosity, why would you exclude the experts, unless for practice maybe?

[James Park]

Out of curiosity, why would you exclude the experts, unless for practice maybe?
If I take Archery Victoria, for example, in most tournaments the same two or three people will just about always win the Open Compound event, for example. I can see good value in having an event where that layer was excluded - it would provide immensely greater pressure on the next layer of competitors (they might get to feel some of the pressure that the top layer gets in a big tournament). I think that would be of benefit to us all in getting a larger number of archers shooting at the top levels - the whole standard should increase. Hence, good for the sport as a whole. (However, as I noted, AV rules at present preclude the possibility of such an event - not that such silly rules have stopped me in the past).
For example, we could have a tournament where those who have won an event in the past year are not elegible to enter? In AV Open Men's Compound, that would exclude me, Craig Tyson, Peter Cave, Marcel Verstegan, John Galley - I think that is it (ignoring clout).

[Eberbachl]

... (ignoring clout).


:rofl:

...of course.

:D

[James Park]

I should add that I would be happy to put the work in to run such a tournament (were I permitted to do so - but as I mentioned, even if not permitted by AV I would be happy to do so anyway if the demand was there).

[Death Damsel]

For example, we could have a tournament where those who have won an event in the past year are not elegible to enter?

Or we could have two divisions. It seems a bit silly to have a tournament and say that the "best" or keenest shooters couldn't attend. People could ascend to the top level by winning the lower level.

[Marcus]

I think it would be a great thing to do, I would do it by not having GMB class archers competing and running a shorter range shoot, like a Short FITA or Fremantle. Close scores and teaches up and commers how to win.
It would have to be policed correctly to make sure that sandbaggers don't enter.

[bigfella]

This part of the debate is really important and deserving of its own thread.. can one of you who is already active do this so that it can be taken up.

As this has come from the indoors 2007 thread are you looking at in an indoors situation or as Marcus comments, short fita or fremantle

[Hannah]

I am still unconvinced. The idea of having a shoot where people can learn to win is great in itself, but for me excluding those I know can beat me (in every condition) and then winning is like saying that I have won 3rd class...

Having said that, I would still compete and would be happy if an event like this was organised...anything for more practice!!

[Zoe]

Agree with Hanna

[Clare Barnes]

SA runs a "Tyros and Veterans Tournament". All shoot a FITA 900 except in Tyro Intermediates shoot a Short Canberra and Cubs a Junior Canberra.

Tyros: an ASA affiliated archer may enter one Tyro tournament in the first 18 months of joining any archery organisation

Veterans and Masters: is a handicap event with (I think) ratings taken off the current SA Ratings List which is sorted on a formula including the best 2 ratings shot in a 2 month period over any target round.

I realise Jim is thinking about an event being even more inclusive than this so it seems strange that AV finds it necessary to have a rule to prevent it happening. We also have an annual tournament run purely for longbows - would that also be illegal in Victoria? :-?

[James Park]

We also have an annual tournament run purely for longbows - would that also be illegal in Victoria? :-?
We would not be allowed to do that in Victoria. However, I have in mind that it is essential that we change the rules in AV. I think our current rules are working to the disadvantage of our archers and limiting our fun.

[STRINGWALKER]

FITA is by its very nature and elitest sport, it is where the Olympic class archers are selected. I went to a fita star shoot early this year where Recurves shot on saturday and compounds shot on Sunday, the medal presentations (same faces different shoot took approx 10 minutes max). In FITA if you can't shoot the scores you can't make the podium, this is how it has been since as long as I can remember.
Over the years I have also shot competition in other archery associations, where after 2 days shooting the medal ceremonies take well over an hour as the count down from Veteran, A grade, B Grade, C grade, D grade Junior,Cub both men/women/boys and girls - Recurve / Compound takes place. This allows a spread of winners over the attending archers.
Having a competition where the best archers "sit out" is futile in my opinion, as a start out archer years ago, the best part of going to a comp was to
A. Compete.
B. To watch and mingle with the GUN shots!
Organising a ranking system, based on scores posted at club events or away shoots is one way to do it but this takes work from the national or state body.
Having said that people like the chance to win in their chosen sport in whatever grade they can perform and competition among all the ranks is good for all archers who attend.
I believe furthering thought along this vein is extremely worthwhile for the future of archery as a whole!

[gb]

I agree with Stringwalker have a divisonal shoot which allows archers of differing abilities to compete amongst themslves. If you wish to enter a higher division thats up to you. But it allows a format where everyone has a change especially at the lower levels.
Sydney did have a Metropolitan Championships on the divvisional format. All archers shot the same round but in the own class/division, it gave you the experience and an even chance of coming a way with something be it experience, a medal, to be able to compete amongst the haves and have nots,m to check out gear anmd ideas from other competitors etc.
I feel it did work, I have not seeen this format for some years though. There has to be a stringent check to keep the burglars out of lower divisions so not toi spiol their chances.
Thats my pennies worth/ if your not old enough, that equates to a cent.
GB

[Marcus]

Current AV operates that way and it's a disaster.
The way I see it is that different levels of archer have different needs.
We shoot alot of FITA in Vic now (5 years ago there were only 4 FITAs in year, now we have about 14) but FITAs are not a good way to introduce people to the sport.
A 1st class and less shoot could be closer range and help people ease in to competition without the need to shoot long range and small faces. Could be the key to getting all those recurve archers out there shooting competition.
DVA has alot of people who are not FITA ready but want to compete.

[Hannah]

Current AV operates that way and it's a disaster.
The way I see it is that different levels of archer have different needs.
We shoot alot of FITA in Vic now (5 years ago there were only 4 FITAs in year, now we have about 14) but FITAs are not a good way to introduce people to the sport.
A 1st class and less shoot could be closer range and help people ease in to competition without the need to shoot long range and small faces. Could be the key to getting all those recurve archers out there shooting competition.
DVA has alot of people who are not FITA ready but want to compete.

This is where I bow out respectively because I have no idea what is FITA and what is not :lol: However, I would have thought that the short-range was similar to this kind of proposal...but would be interested in hearing more on it!

Edit - agree regarding classes wholeheartedly!

[Powerpod]

I agree with the idea of short distant competition especially for the recurve archers that are no up to Fita distant but are ready to compete. My wife recieved 2nd in open womens recurve in the recent SQAS indoors after shooting for 12 months, she competed last year with a club training bow after 5 weeks of shooting and gave the women enough concern that they stayed to watch her shoot her this year. She loves to compete as well as a joy to compete with and if their were short distance comps I do beleive you couldn't keep her away.
For myself after having open heart surgery in January this year I wouldn't mind a short course or two.

[James Park]

If we were (allowed) to have a longbow-only tournament in Victoria, I would enter. Regretably, AV will not allow it.

[Hannah]

Okay different tack...what is a 'short' distance that is not indoor?

[Clare Barnes]

If we were (allowed) to have a longbow-only tournament in Victoria, I would enter. Regretably, AV will not allow it.

They're nice and quick - we've proven finding arrows in the green each end takes less time than waiting for compounders to shoot 6 arrows! :p

[Marcus]

:rofl:
I think the sales of longbows would skyrocket.

Short distance would be 50-60m tops.

[Brocky]

This is a geat idea it would allow those that have not shot a Fita to make a decision reagrding the next step, if they want to compete at that the Fita level or not. Personally I find shooting a Camberra as hard if not harder being all on a large face.

[frommy]

My observations on this fall in line with several others above, in that I cannot see the value in it, but I can see the value of shooting with top archers, as a lesser shooter.

Hannah made a good point in, IMO, in regard to winning a secondary medal. Marcus has very frequently pushed the theme of "too many medals", and "medal chasers", and considering this concept, which I agree with, the current concept makes no sense.

GB, the NSW Metrops, shot under the division rules, never held any attraction to me at all as I believed the structure was faulted, and, again gave a medal for a person in a low division who probably did not want it or deserve it, or otherwise a person who was a burgular.

Jim, AV are the only RGB that give any major substance to GMB, MB etc ratings. So while your original concept may be able to be organised in AV, this could not easilly be replicated in other RGB's.

Just my .02c worth..

Brian

[katzgrin]

If we were (allowed) to have a longbow-only tournament in Victoria, I would enter. Regretably, AV will not allow it.
Question? Not knowing the ins and outs of AV rules and politics, does it matter if a club decides to hold an event not sanctioned by AV? I would have thought that the worst outcome would be that any record shot could not be claimed.

[Jason.P]

If we were (allowed) to have a longbow-only tournament in Victoria, I would enter. Regretably, AV will not allow it.

James you could enter This event at Geelong Archers

http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=13153

[gb]

GB, the NSW Metrops, shot under the division rules, never held any attraction to me at all as I believed the structure was faulted, and, again gave a medal for a person in a low division who probably did not want it or deserve it, or otherwise a person who was a burgular.


Just my .02c worth..

Brian
Frommy , give me a break, awarding a medal to a person in a lower divison is not deserved or is wanted, why is it that they entered and competed? This topic was started on ideas as to how to even out the shooters abilities on the line I believe. To try and get more archers into the shoot than just the same people who appears on the dias each time.

Yes you have to be very carefull of the burglars , this should be up to the entry acceptance person. I know you have a good knowledge of whose a burglar in our local tournies etc. So as the organiser of a ranked tourni you should be able to say "whoa there", that not right he shoots as a Master Archer yet he's entered 3rd divison ????? Far fetched I know but I'm trying making a point, you know I have troble in that dept. I 'm sure other organisers such as Jim and Marcus would have the same knowledge of who shoots what in their areas so they as organisers should be able to do the same.
Frommy thats my back hand , over the net in the corner , I know you'll have a rebuttle so bring it on, lol.
GB

[REIDY]

Frankly I think that most people here need to get over the phobia about medals. If you are doing archery for the bit of tin alone then I think you have missed the point. At any level you must be doing it because you enjoy it.

The current problem that I see is that with so many FITA's on the calendar (and that is a good thing) that it is all or nothing for newbie archers. By that I mean you must shoot 90m to compete and this a daunting task for someone straight out of "have a go".

We need to provide a stepping system whereby a taste of competition is obtained early, and the earlier the better.

If we could remove the medal issue and say make it a club vs club event for those who have been shooting less than 12 months. I am sure that it would be beneficial but would it be supported?

It could be based on an average system to cater equally for the smaller or larger clubs.

Just an idea!!

Pete

[Abernathy]

I agree with the reason for having a shoot for elite archers only, or even for beginners only but also think that it's good to involve all archers.

In NSW we run an annual Sydney Metropolitan Championships. ( Used to be called the County of Cumberland Championships ) There are three divisions. DIV 1 for those who shoot FITA score XXXX and over or have won an open FITA tournament, or won DIV 2 of the Metro Championships.

DIV 2 for everyone else except those eligible for DIV 3.

DIV 3 for archers who have been registered for less than X months, ( I think it might be 12 months ).

This means that all archers get to compete, as long as they can shoot a mens or womens FITA, but also has incentive for all levels. There's always been some healthy competition in all three divisions.

[Marcus]

Vic pretty much does the same except use he ratings system. Sounds like alot of states do it, but use different grading systems.
I'm still a bigger fan of just outright comps and use scores as the decider instead of bow type and sex to determine it.
For example if you ran a FITA900 then open to only those who hit under 820 and have a 0-700 and a 700-820 division.
2 divisions.

We mix sexes in my training sessions, and bow types. Interestingly enough I have 50/50 compound and recurvers and the recurvers have won the last 3 weeks of our rec v compound competition. (Sten is ineligable for that one)
Our top recurvers are all girls as well.

[frommy]

First Saturday of each month is our club shoot. All in and usually a mixture of Canberra rounds. The adult newbies are permitted to shoot a Junior or Short Canberra, and some juniors with club training gear can shoot 20m (90) or 30m if they want.

The competition is run as a handicap event, and it certainly encourages newbies to participate, as the handicap favours them as they continue to improve their archery.

Brian

[Hannah]

Sounds like there would be a fair amount of interest, with even those not really understanding the reasons still encouraging...might be worth the people in the know to sit down chat about possibilities?

[Guy]

To me the issue is about daunting distances, particularly for recurve and compound shooters. Expecting them to shoot 90M very early on in their competition experience is a turn off and probably affects entry numbers. Most tournaments are running diferent rounds within the competition to cater for vets, juniors, longbows etc. Would it be acceptable to allow say a newbie compound competitior to shoot a Fremantle instead of the full FITA on the inderstanding that they would not be eligible for placings? This would create more administrative overheads for organisers and may not offer the competition against others the new archers desire but could be a way to encourage them to turn up and shoot.

[Brocky]

REIDY I disagree that all beginners are daunted by the fact that they will have to shoot 90 meters. I believe that it is the way that it is put across to them that makes the difference. I also believe that its the thought of completing away from their home ground which is the problem not the distance thing until they are told "wait until you get to 90 meters.

[Pinky]

SA runs a "Tyros and Veterans Tournament". All shoot a FITA 900 except in Tyro Intermediates shoot a Short Canberra and Cubs a Junior Canberra.

Tyros: an ASA affiliated archer may enter one Tyro tournament in the first 18 months of joining any archery organisation

Veterans and Masters: is a handicap event with (I think) ratings taken off the current SA Ratings List which is sorted on a formula including the best 2 ratings shot in a 2 month period over any target round.

I realise Jim is thinking about an event being even more inclusive than this so it seems strange that AV finds it necessary to have a rule to prevent it happening. We also have an annual tournament run purely for longbows - would that also be illegal in Victoria? :-?

In WA we have had an "Old Cout's Shoot" for veterans and masters. There is also the "Stick and String" tournament for longbow shooters but also for people who want to try out longbow to have a crack. I know a few people who have shot this tournament for bit of fun and ended up buying a longbow.

[rachel]

Years ago in NSW we had a night shoot under lights. The round was a Canberra and everyone ran on a handicap system for the overall scores. The other handicap was shooting under lights. This gave all of those people who never won medals at tournaments to win medals, and believe me they all cleaned up. Maybe we could hold a tournament like that (doesn't have to be at night) to let everyone have a chance of winning.

Frommy, we also used to have the once a month handicap Canberra at Blacktown City Archers, and we found that the club members used to like it a lot because it wasn't always the best shooters that won.