Aiming Problems, yet again

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

I dont know how to fix this but how do you solve a problem where, if you have your thumb of the trigger you can in INSIDE the gold quite comfortably but have your thumb on the trigger trying INTENSIONALLY not to shoot yet panic mentally and shoot on the first sign of gild on the dot.

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

^ "first sign of the GOLD ....." my typing error.

[Percy]

Maybe go to backtension to stop urslef punching the trigger when you see the gold. Get yourslef set release the safety and shoot away concentrate on form not where your aiming. Or you could try blank butt and try to group your shots.

[2Dogs]

Try stiff springs in the trigger. 90# minimum.

[Death Ray]

Percy's right; you've got to get yourself a BT release.

I had the same problem at the Junior Nats this year, worse than ever before because of the extra pressure of competition. I found that what really helped was telling myself how much better my shooting would be if I did not snatch.

It all comes down to discipline and a desire to do better.

[dbjac]

BT is BS if you ask me. It may help for a little while, but if you can snap a trigger, you can snap BT... only its even uglier (and it doesnt really help, more like masking the problem).
What you need to do is learn how the shot should happen properly.
There are a couple of schools of thought on this.
What has worked for me, and several others with your problem is as follows. Let me first say that this is a big problem, with the main answer being time. Dont expect it to go away instantly. Set aside a lot of time to getting rid of it completely, dont think... ok its going well now, lets get back to normal shooting, because you will only end up back at the start.

What i did (and i know some dont beleive in this method, but it does work) was learn the feel of the shot again, basically, you teach your brain how it SHOULD be done. This takes time, as it is difficult to unlearn bad habits. This is achieved by removing the entire sight (or just the scope if this is possible, ie. sureloc system). This removes aiming from the shot cycle, which undivides your attention. Move up close (~2m) to a blank butt, and shoot with your eyes closed. Make sure you are squeezing, and focus on what the shot FEELS like. Do this a lot, untill it is natural to squeeze the trigger, and you no longer need to focus soley on that.

Now a good idea is to open your eyes, and repeat the above utill it is natural to do it with your eyes open. Dont try to aim, just feel. If at any stage you feel anxious, or snap, move back a stage in this 'guide'.

Next you would put the scope on, repeat the above. (still on blank butt by the way).

Then i recomend you put something up that is NOT a target face, ie. a blank sheet of A4 paper, and shoot at that. move back in distance and see how you go farther back. (not too far, still early days i would imagine.)

Then as you feel more confident, and are not becoming anxious through the aiming/squeezing, you should put up a target face (Full sized face to start off with) and see how you go with that. Remember, if it gets ugly, take a step or two back in the guide-- patience is your friend.

Try to avoid pressure situations, like tournaments. Its difficult to keep your brain in check at the best of times, let alone when you are trying to re-teach it to shoot.

The whole process may take weeks... maybe months. But you dont want to rush it, or you'll end up at the start again very shortly.

Good luck, Target Panic is a curse that plagues most archers, your not alone.

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

Thanks guys, i was thinking about the BT thing because it worked a couple of years back, thanks again :)

[dbjac]

:rolleyes:

[c3]

The bottom line is you need to stop aiming and focus on your program. Aiming is the bane of all archers. It's the root of fear and loathing in this sport.

Shoot your shot routine. Putting the sight on the gold is only one tiny step. From there your focus must shift from the question "is the sight on the center?". As long as you are thinking about that question you will have problems.

You have to learn to shoot without the mind thinking about the aim or where the sight is. Until you can go to execution rather than aiming you will be miserable, IMHO!

Cheers,
Pete

[NOCK HUNTER]

Try stiff springs in the trigger. 90# minimum.

2Dogs is right, if your going to shoot a trigger you need it stiff
or you will end up with the Yips.

[Marcus]

I agree with dbjac, 2Dogs and Nock Hunter on this one.

BT and blank butt is not a solution without a clear understanding of what is going on.

[NOCK HUNTER]

I think you need to be taught how to shoot a release, it's all in the technique

If you can shoot a BT properly you can shoot any release aid!

But it all takes time and effort.

To many of us pick up a release aid in the first instance and start triggering it and then wonder why we end up in trouble.

We need to get away from this term TRIGGER.

[STRINGWALKER]

This sort of problem has seen too many people leave archery for good, get the biggest target you can get (120 would be good) put it on a butt, stand 5 metres away from it, draw, shoot and feel the shot - ask yourseld why the panic???? Progress in small increments of 5 metres - DO NOT GO FURTHER OUT IF YOU START DRIVE BY SHOOTING again - Remember the fun of archery is with you, so relax at the short distances and get to know your form.
As far as BT releases go (from all reports they're good) but Terry Ragsdale and others were shooting perfects with trigger releases 15 years ago!

[reversehaven]

hm.. well, if you were a recurve archer i'd say get a clicker but you aren't. but from the looks of it, djbac posted something quite good.

or actualy, i'm not sure if this would work, never tried this before, but i thought about pulling an arrow normally, and keeping your thumb away from the trigger. pull and hold it at the gold anytime you snap put down the shot. don't let it go at all.

then just keep training like this, pull put down pull put down.

and then combine it with the shooting blind that djbac talked about. blank butt, 2m, close eyes. do them separately.

then when yo'ure good enough, go out say, 15m, with a target face. okay this part is tricky. first keep your thumb away from the trigger. don't let it press no matter what. pull draw, as you would do the first excercise. once you anchor and have your sights on the gold, close your eyes, and wait another 2 seconds before putting your thumb back on the trigger. wait another 2 seconds before pulling the trigger. try to reach the stage where you aren't consciously thinking, and you're doing all this.

yeh pretty much half of my stuff is built upon what djbac said, but i guess no hard and fast rule yeah. i think different methods might work for different people but quoting djbac once again, patience works wonders.

[Erika]

Perhaps I'm not qualified to respond, but I am 100% target panic free and have never punched a trigger or ripped off a back tension release aid. I have even tried... and I just can't do it.

Maybe try shooting a little recurve with a clicker? We've talked about this at DVA a bit and wonder if maybe I can't do it cos I learnt how to shoot recurve first. If you try getting that jumpy with a recurve and a clicker it either won't go off or it'll miss the target entirely.

Or maybe it's just how it works in my head...:)

[Shirt]

Agree with dbjac and co. What no-one's mentioned yet is that a QUALITY release is important - Carter or Truball. Avoid the cheapo ones like the plague since you'll never get zero-travel and you usually can't make them stiff enough.

[IllinoisBuck10]

I had that same problem last year. What I did was go up to the target and stand about 5yds. away and then draw your bow close your eyes and put you finger on the trigger and hold it for a little bit and then just let the arrow fly. Try that seven or eight times then scoot back to about 10yds. and shoot but this time with your eyes open. Also try this when you draw your bow back tell yourself your not going to let the arrow fly unless your sight is there. and if your sight is not there then do not even shoot, let your bow down and try again. I know how hard it is, just practice and remember it is all in your head...Good luck to you and tell me if this helps.

[Liam]

Agree with dbjac and co. What no-one's mentioned yet is that a QUALITY release is important - Carter or Truball. Avoid the cheapo ones like the plague since you'll never get zero-travel and you usually can't make them stiff enough.

I would reccomend a stan or a carter over any truball. The truballs aren't bad releases, but they're pretty uncomfortable, and the trigger doesn't feel as good as a carter or stan, IMO.

[apexrob]

This might help you out ...
http://www.archerylive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=259

[subzero]

I have just gone to a back tension release after shooting a thumb trigger and a scott release for the last couple of years. I know I was suffering with target panic big time and tried to read everything about it to figure out what the problem was and how to fix it.

The bottom line was simple. It was in my head that I had to shoot as soon as the cross hair was over the 10 zone.

I was pulling shots left, right, missing targets and couldn't figure it out. What had changed since last year when I was winning everything to this year where I couldn't hit a barn door 3 foot away.

Another archer suggested I try a back tension release aid. I have to admit it is still possible to make a back tension release go off before you are ready or to make it go off deliberately. However I do believe that it has helped me immensly in re focussing my ability to concentrate on aiming and get back into the discipline of a shot sequence. Now I know that if I let it go early it is my fault.

I can see that the line of my shots has improved and the only reason I miss the 10 zone is because of misjudging the distance to the target.

The best thing I can suggest is re look at your shot sequence first. Try to maintain a regimental sequence of events to get you through the shot. Start with writing the shot sequence down. It will help you, it certainly helped me.

[Area_D]

Questions:
1 - Can you execute a relaxed & steady shot on blank bale?
2 - Is it only when you try to hold on the gold that the problem begins?

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

Questions:
1 - Can you execute a relaxed & steady shot on blank bale?
2 - Is it only when you try to hold on the gold that the problem begins?

1- yes
2- yes

[Sandy Hancock]

It's taken you five days to work out the answer to these questions? :rolleyes:

[Clare Barnes]

Form is Temporary, Class is Permanent

Is that 2nd or 3rd class? :D

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

It's taken you five days to work out the answer to these questions? :rolleyes:
I havent shot for 3 weeks on a count of my deb, work and a concert and i wont shoot this weekend coz im going to the grand final to see my team play (go West Coast). im currently on the verge of dropping out of the sport of archery because of my target panic. To answer you question fully, i havent been on archery forum for a while, ive been down at ninety mile beach (near
Sale)working so i can afford to stay in the sport and thats the reason for my absence on the forum.
Is that 2nd or 3rd class?
No, its a figure of speach, its class as in the way a person goes about their shooting and their manners towards the sport and its competetors. I have it to express how everyone should go about even if they are not in the top league of their competetion.

[Clare Barnes]

No, its a figure of speach...

I'll pretend I wasn't making a joke about possible plans to remain a 2nd or 3rd class archer permanently. :rolleyes:

[Sandy Hancock]

Joking aside, you clearly have a nasty case of target panic.

The advice already offered is sound. Stiff trigger, back tension (shot *properly*) or a spell with a recurve could all help.

Heaps of blank butt will not help because the whole problem arises *only* when you are aiming at a target.

Just a thought, but perhaps you could try shooting a round of all 7's. Or make a smiley face on the target like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon: still aiming precisely, but not at the X ring; having fun, but not caring about scores.

Once you can do these, perhaps the centre of the target will become just another aiming zone.

[Jesse Pearman aka Woody]

I'll pretend I wasn't making a joke about possible plans to remain a 2nd or 3rd class archer permanently. :rolleyes:

Sorry about that, my sacasim detector was broken at that time, man do i look like toss.

[cschach]

I think it is fairly well accepted that the best long term solution to overcoming target panic is to execute a surprise release. Doesn't matter how its done... back tension, thumb trigger or whatever.

If you can make the mental transition to accepting that you have no control over the exact point in time at which the release fires then you will have overcome TP.

I have gone from a TP fighting puncher to surprise releaser over the last year or so and it has made archery so much easier. I have gone from trying to control my mind and reflexes to finding better ways to hold steady. I can assure you that the latter is much less frustrating and a whole lot more rewarding. In fact the first time I decided to shoot a whole round using surprise releasing I got a PB (FITA indoor I). Clint Freeman tells a similar story. He said that within a couple of weeks of using a surprise BT release he went from barely hitting the target to 1340 FITAs.

It may pay to read up on the subject. I can suggest the following link - http://www.fca.ca/ex/MattClelland02.htm. Particularly read the words about the three outcomes of a shot.

Here is something I think you should try....

Step 1. Without a target face at first. Learn what a surprise release feels like. Have someone else push the trigger for you if you are in any doubt that you have achieved a surprise. In fact it should feel like a terrible shock at first. If you don't achieve a surprise- you need to squeeze your trigger more slowly. Even if it takes for ever just keep applying pressure _slowly_.

Step 2. Try and do the same thing with a target face. Try doing it close up at first - it will be easier. You will probably find that what became easy in step 1 is now quite difficult again.

Warning!!!!: At this point you will have discovered that you are now able to hold on the spot. Target Panic gone? Hey maybe instead of waiting for the release to go off I'll just punch it. Hey, great shot. I'll do that again... Hmm having a bit more trouble holding on the spot... getting twitchy again. RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO PUNCH.

Step 3: Try it at longer distances. Continue to resist the temptation to punch. You will get annoyed by having loss of control. You can see the pin on the spot, but the bloody release won't go off. You only get more unsteady as the shot takes longer. Persist - you will learn how to hold more steady and execute the shot faster. You will have to accept that some surprises will be bad ones - but they won't be as bad as the typical flinched shot caused by punching.

[Tegs]

Practise on a string every where 20 times a day, always, use a heavy spring, and practise with BT

[sevencities]

Hm.....I've a recurve junior who always shuts his eyes when he draws his bow and aims at the target. He wasn't like that until recently in these few months, after anchoring, he'll automatically shuts his eyes and release, but somehow, the arrow still manages to hit the target, but the grouping is very wide. This considers as Target Panic does it?

[Sandy Hancock]

Sheesh. I hope he's in really close. Obviously this habit needs to trained out *immediately* as it's an accident waiting to happen.
Is he using a clicker? If not, it may introduce enough surprise to the release that he won't have time to shut his eyes.
I wouldn't let him shoot out beyond 5 metres until the problem is gone. That might also encourage him to work hard at fixing it ;)

[Lawrence Croeser]

My take on BT,

Draw, hold, anchor, tranfere, relax, aim, keep expanding, don't worry about your pin let it float (aim) without trying to controll too much, aim let the release happen. You will be surprised.

Lawrence

[dilligaf]

All advise given in this thread is very sound.
I have target panic and it will never leave the trick is control!
After controling my target panic i shot in many top ten shoot outs before my semi retirement 5 years ago (due to a job relocation).

Get it in your head that you only shoot a good shot and this thing we call archery is only a game.

Have your form mastered ie stance, loading the arrow drawing the bow anchor etc. Every time you step up to shoot an arrow you follow the same shot sequence exactly if you make a mistake start again from the start.

Practice letting down when you are about to shoot. this is the most important thing you need to practice if the shot dosn't feel right, if the shot is taking to long or you have the slightest bad thought LET DOWN and start again. If you can get your brain to acknowledge that you don't have to shoot the arrow you can move onto shooting.
Shooting
You have to teach your brain to hold on the center of the target (remember its target panic not blank butt panic). for this get a target a big one and shooting at close range 10 yards or less partice aiming and letting down. As you start to feel that you can decide if you want to shoot the arrow or not then try letting one go feel the shot correct your release then draw and let down shooting begins again. don't rush into shooting a whole quiver full of arrows one in ten attempts is plenty. Each time you shoot an arrow work on your release and follow through.

You must have time to do this i took approx ten months off and shot very low poundage shooting every other day for about an hour or so.
When i was suffering badly it was not a case of just hitting a bad score zone it was difficult to hit a butt most of the time i would draw back look through the peep move the pin toward the target and shoot. It was so bad i was dangerous.

Its been five years since i shot an a official round of archery so between now and the first shoot next year i intend on practicing what i preach and remembering the six P's hopfully i will shoot again.
Piss Poor Practice = Piss Poor Performance.

[reversehaven]

hmm. i thought of just keeping your thumb away from the trigger for compound.. or rather, you could build a releaser device of your own that attaches to the string and cannot be triggered, yet feels similar to the actual releaser device itself.

so what you do is to just hold it there and don't release. just pull, hold there and don't release, till you get tired and just put it down normally. or at least force yourself to hold it there for ten seconds before you allow your thumb to go near the trigger.

i've been through target panic before and corrected it with a clicker (which means i can't shoot with no clicker. i'm pretty handicapped when i take off the clicker. or at least, i haven't really dared to try yet.) hmm. but i think the more realistic way to solve this form problem is to put everything aside and train just the portion of your shot cycle that is erratic.

like hey. don't give up the sport!

[dilligaf]

A clicker is certainly a good way to get through it. I shot Bowhunter unlimited so a clicker was not allowed.
I went to england in 94 and had my problem then (Frank Person at the time he was a staff shooter for Browning and suffered from target panic & shot with a clicker) Frank got me on the practice butts each day and got me to talk through the shot much the same as using a clicker just saying it out load.
So for four days i shot every target by saying.
Draw the bow
hold the shot
move the pin on the target
hold on the target
shoot (click)
I didn't work for every target and i shot some pretty low scores, but i got coached by one of the all time great shooters.
After that it was back to the drawing board and it tried shooting blank butts but the problem wasn't my form essentially i had pretty good form just sit a target on the butt and i'd be lucky to hit the butt. I had already at this time been battling this thing for twevel months with a coach but after england i got extremly bad. I remember my now wife were out practicing one day and we got to a 25 yard target and i stood there for must of been 20 mins shooting arrows over the butt she eventually said give it up your dangerous.
So yeah i just got a large 65 cm target stood at 10 yards pulled the bow with my finger way off the trigger so i wouldn't shoot held the pin on the target 20 to 30 seconds and let down after a couple of days of this i started to put my thumb on the trigger.
Now i am a very very slow shooter i draw the bow with my finger just above the trigger when at full draw i put my finger on the trigger then sight the target start executing the shot and aim and wait. Very rarely do i jump or flinch on a target but i do let down because i just can't fire the shoot. Some times while aiming and working back tension the back tension or execute the shot will stop so i just let down and try again.
During the course on my ordeal i read heaps on the subject and tried many things and found i became a better shooter. I now practice form and i practice aiming when i go to a shoot i aim that is were the money is so to speak.
I'll never give up i've been at it for 23 years although the last five have been at 10 yards.

[New Tricks]

The day you punch a trigger, throw the thing away. Get a new release.

With backtension or surprise triggering, people have just got to accept that there will be shots that go off when you are not aiming in the middle. It is just part of it all. Work first on getting the surprise release done correctly and then worry about holding still down the track. It wont be a 1 day fix, it will take time.

[Marcus]

I didn't work for every target and i shot some pretty low scores, but i got coached by one of the all time great shooters.
I've read this 'advise' from Pearson before. He should stick to producing arrow building videos and avoid coaching.
Jus because someone is a great shooter, doesn't mean their advise will work.

[dilligaf]

Now lets not get snakey.
I didn't say the advise Frank gave worked in actual fact i would not recommend some one try and shoot by talking out load this was something that help me get through one shoot due to being on the other side of the world and not being able to make major changes to equipment after day one of a world title . It was good that Frank went out of his way every day to meet me on the practice butts and talk about how my day went and help me with this problem. It also shows how if you have target panic it does not have to end the fun of this sport or dosen't mean you will never shot well again like i said he has target panic.
His advice to me at the end of the shoot was to change release aids and learn to shoot form from the basics and always remember its only a game.
As for his coaching ability well you should debat that with Frank not me or anyone else your opinion about someones abilities is yours and you should keep it to your self. :fist:
My advise given is what worked for me.
Target Panic has been debated over for a long time there are many videos and books on the subject and i think every one would agree that shooting form is the key. What will work for each person is hard to gauge over a forum and finding a coach is a good way to start.
The coach i had was very respected in both ABA and FITA and could not help me over come the problems i had with the target. He helped immensely with my shooting form but the target i had to work out for myself.