What on earth do people do with all their trophies???

[Zoe]

It's becoming a liability. Now whenever Michael and I come home from a tournament with our mandatory class placing medals in tow (which you can't seem to possibly escape,no matter how discracefully you shoot :roll: , but that's another issue), we are faced with the challenge of placing them precariously on top of a teetering pile of other trophies and medals on a small cabinet top in the corner of the room.

We need a cull. What are the options? Chucking them in the bin seems a bit of a waste,but it looks like that's the go. Alternatively, we could offer them back to the clubs, however, many of them are engraved with too much detail as to be reused. However, there are some, such as the State Indoor, that have generic info on them (eg. 2nd S.L. Compound), which could be easily used again. The DVA medals (which are very nice by the way) could also be reused. So, which clubs out there would be willing to reuse them (considering that medals make up a substantial proportion of a tournament's cost), and which clubs already do it? Is there an argument to suggest that all clubs should be providing only generic info on their class medals so that they can be reused?

What have other people done when they've had to streamline their collection?

(incidentally, if you could amass the total of all the weekend sports trophies sitting in all the cabinets/boxes/basements of Australian households, I wonder how many times you could fill the MCG)

[Kuru]

Best thing is to spread the load, we have some, some at my parents house and some at my girlfriends parents house, but does beg the question, what can you do with them. Maybe one could liquid nail them in a heap and bang, instant post modernism art !!! :)

[CMB50]

Can appreciate your situation Zoe. I have the same problem myself (although i don't have any archery trophies/medals, not yet anyway :wink: ) mainly from football, basketball ect.
I have the ones that were the biggest achievements on display, but altough i don't have the others out for show, i still can't bring myself to throw them away. So, they sit in a cupboard, in the spare room, collecting dust.

So, if anyone else has a solution (other than buying a bigger cupboard) I'd like to hear it too!

[Caveman]

I fixed my problem with trophies.

I went GMB

Now I don't have to lug home trphies anymore. :lol:

[James Park]

I have medals hung on one of the doorknobs of my wardrobe, a box full in one of my draws, and trophies on top of one of our cupboards. I have given a few away to worthy recipients (gave my State Indoor medal to Rod Miller's daughter - she looked like she needed one at the time).
Interestingly, the least important are the largest and most difficult to store, while the most important (FITA World Championship, Oceania Regional Championship, National Championship, State Championship, World Masters Games) are just about always small medals and by far the easiest to store.
My experience is that if they are not engraved you may as well leave them at the tournament as they are unlikely to be engraved later, and quite soon you forget what you got them for (have lots of those).

[James Park]

I have medals hung on one of the doorknobs of my wardrobe, a box full in one of my draws, and trophies on top of one of our cupboards. I have given a few away to worthy recipients (gave my State Indoor medal to Rod Miller's daughter - she looked like she needed one at the time).
Interestingly, the least important are the largest and most difficult to store, while the most important (FITA World Championship, Oceania Regional Championship, National Championship, State Championship, World Masters Games) are just about always small medals and by far the easiest to store.
My experience is that if they are not engraved you may as well leave them at the tournament as they are unlikely to be engraved later, and quite soon you forget what you got them for (have lots of those).

[Marcus]

I have some on display that were 1sts only. seconds etc are in a box somewhere. My state and national medals are also in a box. These days I agree I would rather get nothing for classes. At this past DVA shoot I was the only MB so I prevented my Dad handing an award out for it. Unless it's outright, I'm not interested. If you hang back long enough at my club after an awards ceremony about 4 of us throw the medals back in the box.
I like 3DAAA's method, there is a division that has no trophies, just a cash award at the end of the year. Sounds like a great way of removing clutter.

[OldDog]

good post zoe, I have thrown 2 teachests full in the tip, dont think I am ungrateful for winning them as I am not, but as you asked, What do you do with them, I wish archery would get it on the pile and start giving useful trophies such as useable drinking glasses etc, (better than vegemite jars anyday) you could collect them and make sets of them, some other sports do this and trophies are not a dust collecting problem.

[mike]

I spose we have to be careful not to raise the old issue of class placing medals and presentations.... :roll:

Still, getting rid of all the stupid class presentations would help this problem. Like I said in a post ages ago, Just give certificates for class placings, Medals for outrights. If its only a medal, and its for an actual outright placing, then most of us would consider keeping it as it means something. Class places don't mean much if you have your eyes on the bigger prize. Certificates and medals are easier to store!!

I think I'll probably just chuck all mine in a box and stuff them under the house!!

Now that I'm GMB, I won't get as many, which is a good thing, and when I do, it will mean something!!

[mike]

Bug in system Marcus, accidentally posted twice....

[Marcus]

I spose we have to be careful not to raise the old issue of class placing medals and presentations.
No way! This is my forum, that's a bugbear of mine, I say harp on about it!!!


If you reply and get an error on the next screen ignore it.

[Zoe]

Like I said in a post ages ago, Just give certificates for class placings

Excellent thought young Michael. Then, when a person collects enough of them, they can bind them together in a nice little booklet and use the blank sides as a notepad :lol:

you may as well leave them at the tournament

so as not to be mistaken for a conceited wanker, some sort of slight of hand during your medal acceptance might be called for. I can imagine Doug Devlin becoming a bit suspicious though, when he begins to wonder why there's a large clinking sound every time he starts walking.

No way! This is my forum, that's a bugbear of mine, I say harp on about it!!!

Cool. How about........awarding medals for class placings does nothing but take up precious landfill space and tell us that it's ok to treat some people as 2nd class citizens.
Archers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your pieces of cumbersome cheap plastic.

[Marcus]

I'ld rather a burnt piece of driftwood than a certificate. Better landfill than cut down more trees!

Hey when I was a junior I got abused by someone for not being happy for getting a silver at the State indoor. Apparently we are meant to treasure these hunks of metal, even if we shot like crap.

[mike]

I'ld rather a burnt piece of driftwood than a certificate. Better landfill than cut down more trees!

I hear you brother Marcus!!!

I was just trying to be slightly diplomatic to the hoards of trophy hunters out there....


Oh my god, now I have put my foot in it!!!

:evilbat:

[Marcus]

I can tell you where we can stock the driftwood into the trophy hunters too! 8) :wink:

I should put into the signup agreement hat if you shoot for plastic and not pride you can't join.

[Zoe]

Perhaps a solution to the wastage/storage problem associated with class medals:

Class place-getters in tournaments could be mailed their certificate after the event. The certificate could have a fridge magnet attached to it (thus rendering it with some pragmatic use) with blank spaces for archers to write in emergency numbers for clubs for instances such as last minute tournament entries.

Those who have no interest in class-placing certificates could simply mark "return to sender" on them and pop them in the nearest mail-box. Certificates would arrive back at the club of origin for use in next year's tournament.

[Vic]

I have one award. It's a spoon and I won it for being the best third class archer on the day. I worked hard for that spoon. It was blowing a catagory five from left to right and I had to play catch-up all arvo because I started so badly. I was so proud I made a little plaque for it from some old jarrah I found in the shed.

Okay, that was 1986 but I still have that spoon. I'll never throw it out because it means so much to me. One day I hope to have the full collection of classification medals to hang next to it.

Maybe that could be an answer. No more trophies, just medals like those natty little classification ones. You could fit about a hundred in a medium sized picture frame. Each little medal could come on a card so just the one type would have to be made.

Vic

[Marcus]

Love your work Zoe!!

I think everyone must have a favourite. That one that while you would throw the rest away there is one you would never. What is it for everyone here?

[Marcus]

Testing bug fix

[James Park]

Pondering Zoe's question further, it occurs to me that no one at all ever looks at my collection of medals and trophies, not even me.
Probably no one can even remember who won tournaments held as recently as 2001. Certainly no one can remember who can second, or who won MB, etc, even for tournaments as recent as 2002?
A test: who came third in the Nationals target event (AA's most prestigious tournament) in 1999, Mens compound? Who came second in the Nationals Field in 2001, Mens compound? Who came second in the Nationals Target in 2000, Mens compound? Who won MB at the AV State Target in 2002, Mens compound? - I have purposely chosen these ones so you cannot simply answer "Clint" and have a good chance of a lucky guess!
My point is: the ones that really matter is who came first (outright) in the very big tournaments, against decent competition. They are the medals that really matter, and for those ones we should ensure they are engraved and hung on a wall. (Leigh Cornish has several important ones framed, and they look great - I am sure he also has a very large box of less important ones, but I have never seen it).

[Vic]

There could be other uses for this stuff:

"Hey, Baby. Wanna come back to my place and see my medals?"

Vic

[enseth]

Our ABA branch has a sensible idea. Winners and place getters are issue with a wooden plaque. Then, when they receive a placing at further events they receive a brass strip with the details of their achievement, ie as per the example.

AUSTRALIAN BOWHUNTERS ASSOC. INC
SOUTHERN NSW & ACT BRANCH
2ND PLACE 3D ROUND
SHOT AT-


The engraving is completed by the competitor and attached to the plaque. When it is full a new plaque is issued. This gives the shooter a record of their achievements without overflowing the place with bulky trophies. Most branch members seem to like the concept.

Sate and national events still have medals and trophies but for branch shoots that are held monthly it seems work well.

[robbo]

What the @%, I've only got 2 medals and 1 trophy! :(

But the kids have litterally got hundreds of medals and hundreds of trophies.

Not all from Archery, mostly athletics, soccer, football and basketball etc.

I agree with Jim, if they are not engraved when you get them they are unlikely to ever be, and you end up with medals you have no idea what for or in our case whose they are.

[2Dogs]

Well certificates do make good toilet paper.....never let it be said that you can't recycle them.

As for medals and trophies....left them all at my mum's house years ago.

Kept a tiny collection of the good ones, rest are scattered throughout the shed somewhere.

Nationals ones are nice, so are the little FITA ones. State ones are good in a bundle......talking piece :D

I think Clubs can save heaps by only having a first place medal for the Adults.............bugger the rest....a hand shake and braggin rights will surfice.

Keep 1,2,3 medals for the kids.....they love that stuff

[robbo]

Mmmm brought a few more home for the collection from the IFAA Branch Tittles in Tumut.

[Murray]

I keep my medals on a pinboard. When I ran out of room, I bought a bigger pinboard :) . Each medal has a label on the back with the date, round, venue, score and class/place, and that ties into my database of scores (I'm the club records officer)

My fiancee does the same. Mine is hidden away on the wall of the spare bedroom and hers is on the wall at the top of the stairs... I do look at them from time to time as I pass by. Having said that, I've worked hard for each and every one of them.

All of the bigger trophies I've won have to go back the following year to be shot for again, so storage for them isn't too much of a problem (except that some are too big to fit on the bookshelves!)

[Diane]

Well Zoe , You can move over and let me take some home for a change
8) ha ha

But what I have done is got a piece of dowel and a couple of picture hooks and threaded the medals on the dowel and then hung it on the picture hooks one each end of the dowel you may need one in the middle to take the weight of the medals to stop sagging. then when the next medal comes ( not very often for me yet) , I un hook one end and slide it down along the dowel and let hang down to dis play it .

[robbo]

I think the importance of trophies and medals is relative.

The C grade archer winning the national C grade title has probably had to try just as hard for that trophy as the outright winner. So it will be just as important to him as the outright winners trophy, maybe more so, as winning may not come so easy to him.

We all compete in our own little world.

On a different scale the olympic archery champion pales into insignificance when compared to the importance the rest of the sporting world gives to, say the olympic 100 m champion.

The more trophies that one gets the less importance we give them.

[robbo]

The archers that come second, third or last ar just as important as the one that came first, even down to the lower grades.

Without them there would be no competition.

Archery would be an even smaller sport than it is now if only the elite archers shot in competitions.

There needs to be a venue for lessor archers to compete and feel like they are achieving.

Just my 2 cents.

[Zoe]

I agree entirely with your sentiments Robbo, but unfortunately that argument's really only valid for perhaps Male Compound (at least in Victoria) - sometimes.

As I see it, the idea of awarding class medals is to reward an archer's performance relative to their general standard. No-one would question the merit in this. Unfotunately, in streams with relatively few competitors (such as my stream - Ladies Compound), we are often competing with only one other person in our class, and often with no-one else at all! Therefore, I could shoot disasterously (relative to my usual standard), or brilliantly (relative to my usual standard), and walk away with the same medal.

That being the case, I am destined to begin to see 'class medals' as utterly meaningless, as they bear no relation to my performance (even relative to my own shooting standard) on a given day. In a nutshell, for the vast majority of archers, the handicap system totally fails to do what it was set up to achieve.

Consequently, lots of people are left with a mounting pile of medals that mean nothing to them (which in turn devalues class medals achieved in a handicap system that actually works, such as occaisionally happens with a strong Male Compound turnout). Just saying that the amount of medals given out needs to reflect the amount of participants.

[Marcus]

Well said Zoe.
Even in Mens Compound we had one MB at the DVA shoot and 2 at the State Target. I have no idea where I came in MB atthe state target, and don't care. Didn't get in the top 3, so it's back to keep practising. If sports only start having people who could win then no sport would survive. Playing bball and grid iron we only got an award for a place at the end of the year, and that's how it should be.

[2Dogs]

I'm curious about these different divisions....the MB GMB 2nd Class 3rd Class etc.

I've never seen these divisions in Sth Qld ever......there is/was Mens compound and Ladies Compound etc.. it was only till recently that they had the Veterans division.

So it's like every child wins a prize.

Don't see the point in it.

[robbo]

Maybe if you turn up to a shoot and there are only 1 or 2 archers in your division/grade then you are put up in the next division/grade.

[frommy]

Zoe,

I agree with Marcus, very well said indeed.

In our club we have a guy who shoots open barebow recurve for fun. And you would accept that there is little competition in that class.

He entered the 2002 Nats and 2002 NSW titles and came away from both with heaps of awards (but he did shoot bloody well to get them - like Oz record scores and State record scores).

But we also had an U16 compound boy who shot absolute ****, and, due to the lack of competition at that tournament, came away with a State title.

I don't see how this type of inequity could be redressed however!

Brian

[robbo]

At a recent 2 day shoot I won B grade in ABA and in 3D. But in 3D my main competition had to travel home because of the bushfires, so the victory was pretty hollow.

I would rather have shot in the higher grade.

[James Park]

At the World Masters Games I did notice a couple of archers who tried to change their class of equipment on the various days of the events to try to ensure that they would get medals (even though the quality of their shooting was poor). I cannot recall the details, but it was something like changing the length of a stabiliser so that they swapped from one class to another depending upon how many entries there were so that they could deliberately get a category with only one or two archers in it.

[Guy]

I was one of those at the World Masters shooting in a division by myself and was extremely disappointed when I realised this was the case. I looked in the lanes next to me and saw eight or nine archers in the next age category up having a fantastic competition and felt like I was missing out.
I would like to think that most of us recognise what is a significant achievement for ourselves and what is not. My win on the weekend at the State Target means a lot more to me than four World Masters Gold medals given that I actually had to beat someone, shot two PBs by miles and set some state records. Please don't condemn all those that shoot in the less populated divisions as gold diggers because of the actions of a few.

[James Park]

Guy,
I am not criticizing those who end up in a division of one simply because others chose not to enter that one. The thing that annoyed me at the WMG was the archer who deliberately tried each day to change his division so that he would end up in a division of one. This seemed to me to be quite blatant pot hunting and not in the spirit of how these things should work.
It certainly also points to the fact that we have too many different age groups and equipment classes. Why, for example, in ABA categories (which I do not understand very well) would a very minor equipment difference mean the need for a completely different category - am I correct in thinking that something a simple (and trivial) as the length of a stabiliser makes a difference between categories (and if so, surely this shows how rediculous some of this is).

[Marcus]

I heard around you were upset at that situation Guy.

Guess that is the problem when new divisions are created to cater for a change in gear. The World Masters was an insane situation and in fact turned into an absolute sham. There were people of the same age and using the same gear but were in different divisions. For example there was Freestyle Unlimited and open compound. Some even moved from open compound to FSU where they knew they would win. Others however moved the other way in order to get more competition. Hayley Eberbach of DVA entered open compound, however she was an ABA shooter and should have enetered FSU, she had the chance to move where would easily won most of the medals, instead she stuck it out and was over the moon with happiness when she got 4th in the field. That 4th in that tough division means more to her than a gold in the easier division.

I think what should occur is that if there are less than 3 competitors in a division the shooter is moved to the next one. The age groups in the masters should be broader, 30-60, 60-80 etc. with no conflicting divisions. Ideally archers should be moved till there are around 5-10 shooters competing for a prize.

This is an area that archery needs a ton of work in and yet seems to be reluctent to do. It's easier to add a division, populate it with 1 archer than it is to cull the ones barely used. I think SQAS has it right, and they don't seem to have a lack of shooters.

[Oldtimer]

If you know that there is only mens/ladies compound/recurve open and age divisions, that's life in SQAS and there is no worrying about whether you can win 3rd class or not, 'cos it doesn't exist. When you take the ages into account, that is still a lot of divisions. The incentive is there to win the events that are available, or to shoot a qualifying score for an AA class. You don't need a medal to get the rush of having shot well, or, even better, shot a PB. This is where the satisfaction comes in archery.

[mike]

Absolutely with Oldtimer on this one. Whatever happened to the old principle of shooting for your own personal satisfaction. Breaking PBs, beating that person you never seem to beat, shooting well in difficult conditions. Basically, people need to learn to have more pride in their own personal perfomance, recognising that this doesn't require a lump of metal hanging around your neck. Of course if you shoot the highest score of the day that requires recognition -- that person did not acheive that without hard work too.

I understand that there are those who feel that for whatever reason that they will never be able to compete with the guys at the top and that they want to have their own prize to compete for. Unfortunately once you start to break down the categories into classes based on "skill level" then you open up the system to abuse.

I wish that the clubs running these shoots would stop the class medals presentations, and frankly, I wish the Junior and veterans divisions were reduced to say 2 junior, one veterans rather than the silly number there are today. If it is absolutely neccesary, send certificates in the mail. It really spoils the shoot to have a lengthy drawn out presentation ceremony.

[James Park]

FITA has only a limited number of divisions:
- Cadet (up to 16?)
- Junior (16-21?)
- Open
- Masters (50+)
For each of these there are:
- Men and women
- Recurve and compound (one category of each, not for example several compound categories)
And for field (but not target or indoor):
- Barebow recurve (not barebow compound)
If to those we add:
- Longbow
That all seems quite sufficient to me.
If we could move to that and have identical age ranges and dates of applicability to FITA, I think we have done our sport a service.

[Aarleks]

I like to know where I stand in relation to archers deemed to be of similar capability. However, I don't think that requires medals or even awards. A recognition of placing is enough.

I can't remember where I saw this type but it seemed like a reasonable system if there must be classes.
In the senior divisions there were three classes:

3rd - Never shot in competition before.

2nd - Shot in a comp' but not won (can't remember if that meant won 2nd or 3rd class or only 2nd).

1st - Won a comp' (class) previously.

At least it's geared towards filling 1st class. People will automatically move to 2nd class, and somebody from 2nd has to win so they move to 1st.

I think that's how it was. :roll:

[mike]

Seems like a reasonable sort of system, Aarleks, but it would mean that the 3rd class would be very empty a lot of the time. The automatic upgrade upon winning a 2nd class event is a very good idea, but would be a nightmare to administer without introducing statewide up-to-date recording systems accessable to every club at any time. Still, could be done.

I like the idea and if I was implementing it I would drop the 3rd class -- not really neccessary.

[James Park]

Perhaps a different approach could be to take the top 6 or 8 or 10 (whatever the right number is) and separate them into an "experts" class, and then have the rest all compete against each other?
The reason this occured to me is that looking back through the 43 (!!!) years I have been an archer there has always been a small group of perhaps 5 to 6 from which the winner of any tournament would inevitably come, then there has been a significant gap to the next group of (a much larger number of) archers. Through the years it has always been very difficult for new archers to get across the gap between "reasonably competent archer" to membership of that small expert group - I can remember trying to get across it in the early 1970's at the same time as Marcus' dad, and it was a major task, as it is now.
In Victoria there are probably only about 5 or 6 archers in that very small group from which the winner of any mens compound tournament will come, and some of that group have considerable experience (which has always been a major barrier for a newcomer). When I was trying to get over that gap as a young recurver there was always Hans Wright, Len Titov, Graeme Telford, and a couple of others who had a wealth of experience, heaps of ability, and were just plain good, and it was a task of mamoth proportion, as it is now.
If we remove that quite small group of experts, perhaps there is potential for quite good competition between the rest?
You could make it an "opt in" entry to that "expert group" from which the State Champion would be selected, with the rest of the field competing for a different award.
Perhaps I am being too elitist here? If so, you should squash it promply!!

(For example, if you removed me, Bryce, Leigh, Bernie, Marcel, Rod, etc, from those against whom you were competing in Victoria, would the competitions in Victoria be more interesting, more fun, and more unpredictable?) - I realise I have probably offended some experts here, so apologies in advance!!

[Zoe]

Jim, sounds like a golf idea. I know the motivations aren't 'elitist'
but I think you might run the risk of isolationism - which would be terribly negative for the sport IMHO.

btw Am I correct in thinking that it is at the discretion of the club to award medals as they see fit? And does that mean that if they do decide to award class medals, then they may choose how this is to work also (eg. today we'll amalgamate GMB & MB, keep 1st class, and amalgamate 2nd & 3rd class)? Do they have no say, however, in how the juniors are categorised?

In other words, I have no idea what needs to be ratified by AV and what autonomy the individual club has.

[Clare Barnes]

FITA has only a limited number of divisions:
- Cadet (up to 16?)
- Junior (16-21?)


Cadets are U16, Juniors are U18, the rest are just as you say Jim.

FITA defines any age group (including Masters) "....when the competition takes place up to and in the year of his or her 16th/18th/50th birthday".

And Open is open - anyone can enter it. :)

I dislike the attitude that every archer "deserves" an award of some kind, but find this attitude is sometimes generated by theoretically well-meaning adults trying to "encourage" juniors. I think it is underestimating the intelligence of many juniors. If a kid shoots an event just to get a medal regardless of how they shoot, they are not going to stay in the sport once ability really counts.

It would be great to think that archers would rather finish lower in the placings of a contested division than not having to beat anyone for a medal. Unfortunately this is not always the case - I met the guy at the WMG that Jim mentioned!

[James Park]

Golf has three "grades": A, B and C (or at least it did have when I was a keen golfer). That one works on handicaps, and for golf it works very well (I think because there is only one round and courses are well rated). I can't remember the details, but it is sort of along the lines of: handicap 12 or fewer = A grade, handicap 13 to 24 = B grade, the rest are C grade. It requires a lot of work on keeping handicaps up to date.
I am not certain of the rules for AV tournaments (I should be, of course, but I am not), but as I understand it clubs can indeed decide what classification categories they want to have in their tournaments, but I think they cannot tinker with age groups.

[Jay Bowden]

I was one of the shooters in a category by myself at the masters games,
I came home with 4 golds "whoopee", shooting in freestyle limited.
It was a very hollow feeling standing on the podium by myself,but I went there to shoot some PB's. since then I have bought a release aid and am working hard to compete with others of my ability with little chance of a medal placing. It is very satisfying to beat someone that beat you at the last shoot. I don't think medals or trophies are important if you enjoy what you are doing!

[Jay Bowden]

At our club we run a competition that has 3 grades GMB,MB & 1stclass
MB & 1st class shoot shorter distances and all archers shoot for the top three places overall. we shoot a different round each month, all the scores between grades end up very close and everyone has a good time trying to beat each other.
for example next month is a Canberra for GMB,Short Canberra for MB and junior canberra for 1st class. you can turn in as many score cards in the month as you like, your highest score counts.
All scores are generally whithin 15 points of each other and we only give out 3 places. sure beats everyone getting a medal.

[Marcus]

As a Tour Dir for my club I am crippled in what I can do due to AV's overregulation with their Tournament Guidelines. If I want the event eligable for state records (which a tournament should be) I have to cater to all divisions.

Jim, your idea is actually somethng I've been kinda working on for the team matchplay and I really like it. It would be a positive move for AV. I would set it so it was:
Open
1st class and less

You would not be allowed in open if you choose, but if you are MB or higher you can not shoot in the lower class. This is vital because to move from MB to GMB you really need to shoot with GMB's. This system would work perfectly well IMHO.

[frommy]

Aarleks,

I think the format you quoted was the traditional ASNSW Metropolitan Champs format. Dave Rowson might be able to confirm that or otherwise comment.

[Aarleks]

I think you might be right frommy. I thought it might have been the Warringah Open but I think you are correct. Looking at the results for last years Metro's seems to suggest it.

[frommy]

I have again reviewed this whole topic and can see some good ideas coming through. Please do not expect me to add to them with the weight of archery talent presently contributing.

I can comment however that the format suggested by Aarleks, from the ASNSW Metrops, always turned me off from entering that event when I was in a reasonably competitive state of my archery. The concept of going to division 2, rather than an Open environment, was objectionable to me.

I am also staggered by the messages re the World Masters relating to the archer who swapped gear around to get Gold.

I was in the 50-59 open compound group at that event and finished in the bottom quartile of every event at that tournament. And, apart from the weather, and some minor organisational hiccups, it was the best archery experience I have ever had in my 10 years participation in the sport.

My fellow club member, in the same division, had much of his gear stolen at the end of the first day at the indoor. He had a spare bow but lost many other accessories as well, little things, like a sight for example. He battled on with a bow barely shot-in, and much borrowed gear. He also rates this event as a great experience and is now determined to enter more Masters events, even after such a traumatic experience.

That is the love of archery.

Brian

[Oldtimer]

I like Jim's idea of just having FITA classes - would solve a lot of problems and arguments.
To win an event, you should be the best archer at that event, within a limited range of divisions.
Yes, it is relatively easy to be a reasonable archer, but very difficult to be an excellent archer. This step requires time, commitment, and, of course, the appropriate talent, but this is no guarantee that you will succeed. Now, not everyone has all of these and so should not expect to win anything, unless the excellent archers are not competing or they 'fluke' it at that tournament.
However, everyone can still be a winner by shooting a PB, or feeling that they shot well under the conditions.

[Zoe]

WARNING: I'm going to write a longish boring thing:

Just to try and recap. Seems to be two distinct grievances coming up again and again, and if anyone was serious about challenging them, I guess your strategy would need to be different depending on which grievance you felt most strongly about.

1. Class divisions
These are sub-divisions within the divisions of open compound and recurve, for senior men and women.

Presently we have GMB, MB, 1st class, 2nd class, 3rd class for each four open divisions.

Some possible alternatives:
a) abolish recognition entirely
b) Marcus' & Jim's expert breakaway group
c) Aarlek's weird NSW thingy
d) amalgamation of the 5 current classes into 2 or 3 classes
e) something else

It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that these divisions (at least as it pertains to formal recognition at shoots) are at the discretion of the archery club. Therefore, to effect change, it may be best to convince your club on how to run their shoot etc etc.- it'd probably be extremely difficult to get a consistent approach from all clubs going though, but eminently doable.

2. Shooting divisions.
These are divisions which seperate you on the basis of equipment, age, and gender.

Presently we have: I cant be bothered listing them-

Some possible alternatives:
a) FITA recognised divisions only (incl. FITA age increments)
b) FITA recognised + longbow, another junior section etc
c) Amalgamate the sexes
d) something else

These divisions are decreed by who, by AA? If so, would there need to be a change at the national level for a body like AV to change divisions for their state title? If that's the case, I hate to think what sort of concerted effort it would take (and what avenues would need to be exploited)for a concept such as a change in divisions to even get a hearing, even if there was one system that a majority of archers thought preferable to the current one - particularly given the apparent trend toward yet more and more divisions.

guess what I'm saying is that it's all very nice to complain about it, but it means sweet F.A. without a pragmatic approach :(

[James Park]

The other important one Zoe: line up the dates for age division changes with FITA.

[Zoe]

forgot. done.