Bow hand and grip shapes

[James Park]

As noted in the "coaches" thread, some grip shapes encourage good bowhand position, and some do not. In order to better understand the desired grip shape, here are some pictures of my bowhand.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030217225527.jpg
This picture shows the two parts of the bowhand: the thumb muscle and the palm, together with the area where the contact between the bowhand and the riser should be. Note that the contact should only be on the thumb muscle, away from the webbing between your thumb and first finger, and away from the bottom of your thumb muscle.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030217225930.jpg
This picture shows my bowhand from the side. Note that my thumb should be pointing directly at the target. The slanting line shows the angle of my thumb muscle in the area of contract between my bowhand and the riser, and the slope of the grip should ideally match this.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030217230129.jpg
This picture show my (out of focus, unfortunately) bowhand from the front. Note the angle of my knuckles at about 40 degrees from the vertical. Note that my lifeline (the line between my thumb muscle and palm is about vertical. The other red line is down the middle of my thumb muscle and the important thing to note is that the thumb muscle on the left of that line as seen from this angle is closer to the camera than the thumb muscle on the right of the line. That is, the thumb muscle is not square on to the direction of shooting but slanted. This means that ideally the grip should be slanted as well, to match. It is in the last point that Earl Hoyt did very well with the shape of his early recurve bow grips, as by having this slope in the correct place and at the correct angle he was able to encourage very good bowhand position. It is also in this respect that many of the compound bows are not ideal in that they have a flat surface square-on to the direction of shooting, which encourages a bowhand with the Radius-to-wrist joint out of line (to the left for a right-handed archer.
Hence, in evaluating compound bow grip shapes, it is the two slopes mentioned above that I am looking for, as well as a shape that does not end up with pressure on the webbing.
Over the next week I will attempt to take some pictures of various grips and evaluate them on these criteria.

[Vic]

Well, at least you shaved before you took those pics!

Seriously, bow grip to me has always been a pain. I always shot my old compound with a straight wrist but last weekend I tried with the very grip you have described. I was concerned I would start grabbing at the bow again but it didn't happen and it felt way more comfortable even with the modern skinny riser. With my hand more relaxed I was able to concentrate on other things.

Good post, Jim.

Vic

[James Park]

Now for something completely different: a 1970 Hoyt Pro Medalist riser. (This is one of the better items in my collection).
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219185458.jpg
Points to note are:
- The slope of the grip matches the desired slope of the bow hand thumb muscle very well.
- The radius and shape of the upper part of the grip avoids having your bow hand push up high into the grip (and lets you keep the pressure off the webbing betweenj your thumb and first finger.
- The cutout for your thumb allows your thumb to be positioned as desired.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219190009.jpg
- It is a nice narrow grip, helping avoid twisting the riser.
- The slope on the right of the grip suits the angle of your thumb muscle.
- The grip is cut such that your first finger can sit quite high up on the edge of the bow window cutout.

Using this bow, I find that my bow hand just about automatically ends up in the desired location and orientation - Earl Hoyt did a fine job. That is: the shape of the grip very strongly encourages the type of hand placement we want, rather than having to have the archer fight against a grip that is poorly shaped.

[James Park]

This is the grip for my PSE Quantum:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219191722.jpg
As for the old Hoyt recurve, this grip does suit the shape of your bow hand.
- The angle matches the angle of your thumb muscle quite well.
- The radius at the top avoids your hand pushing up too high.
- The thum cutout is sufficiently low.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219192008.jpg
- The slope on the right hand side matches the angle of the thumb muscle.
- The thumb cutout is sufficiently low.
- Your first finger can sit up high as desired.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219192133.jpg
This picture shows the angle of the grip at the point where your thumb muscle sits, marching the desired angle of your thumb muscle.
Note that with this grip shape it is rreasonably easy to keep the lower part of your thumb muscle off the grip (because the grip curves away).

[James Park]

This is the Primos grip. Note that it is similar to a number of other bows, so my comments could perhaps be a little more general than just the Primos.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219192359.jpg
- Again, the slope is as deired.
- Again, the thumb cutout is sufficiently low.
- Note that with this shape of grip it is relatively easy to end up with the lower part of your bow hand touching the grip, which is not desirable. It would be better if the slope was curved rather than straight.
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030219192726.jpg
- The thumb cutout is sufficiently low.
- The shape allows your first finger to be up high, as desired. Note that some bows do not allow this, which is a significant problem.
- The slope on the side of the metal part of the grip allows for the angle of your thumb muscle to some extent. It is much better than grips that are just flat across here, but is a compromise.
- The grip is nice and narrow, helping reduce the possibility of twisting the riser.

Hence, this shape of grip does work well, but has some compromises. In particular, you need to be careful to keep the lower part of your hand away from the grip. If you do let the lower part of your hand sit on the grip, as well as twisting the riser you will probably end up with your hand being at too low an angle.
Note that for both the Quantum and for the Primos I have a short overdraw. As well as having the top left corner of the grip, as seen from behind, cut such that I can have my index finger sit up quite high, it is important that the overdraw does not preclude this. Both these grips and the overdraw are well shaped from this point of view. (The third picture in the first post on this thread shows the desired index finger position compared to the thumb position, and it is quite a bit higher than the thumb).

[Marcus]

Good work.
Bring your camera on the weekend. There will be a few new Hoyts and some Mathews there to get some shots of.

[James Park]

More grips (from today at the AV State Target:
Leigh Cornish's Matthews Q2:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222193837.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222193926.jpg
Leigh has removed the standard Matthews grip and replaced it with a sleeve of rubber. However, I think the angle from the side is way too steep, and from behind it is flat, neither of which match the angle of the bowhand thumb muscle. Hence, in my opinion, this grip is not conducive to encouraging a good bowhand position.

Mike's High Country plus Video Recorder modification:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222193956.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194047.jpg
Mike has removed the normal High Country grip (which actually has a reasonable shape), and replaced it with a modified cover from an old video recorder. Fropm the side the slope does match the angle of the thumb muscle quite well, but I would prefer it to be rounded towards the bottom to make it easier to avoid contact with the lower part of the thumb muscle. From behind, Mike has rounded the surface, which does help match the angle of the thumb muscle. Hence: Mike has done well, but it could be improved. I suspect the standard High Country grip might actually be ok. Mike points out that the white line on the grip is an important addition, showing him where not to put his hand. Note that the radius at the top of the grip as seen from the side is not at all conducive to a good hand poisition and could easily end up with pressure on the webbing of the hand. Also, from behind, note that the bow window shelf could well preclude a high position of the forefinger.

Brad Orr's Merlin:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194116.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194201.jpg
This seems to me to be a reasonably well designed grip, although the angle from the side is perhaps a little close to the vertical. From behind, it would be important to check that there is sufficient room to allow the forefinger to get sufficiently high (that is: does the extension of the side of the sight window get in the way? As with the Primos, I would prefer the shape as seen from the side to be rounded to avoid contact on the lower part of the thumb muscle.

A Matthews:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194228.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194305.jpg
A normal Matthews grip. This is a nicely shaped grip in most respects. However, I think the angle from the side is way too close to vertical. It very strongly encourages too low a bow hand wrist position. Otherwise, ok.

Campbell Hodgson's Sky:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194332.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194412.jpg
This is a fairly standard recurve grip and is of an excellent shape. I examined this one particularly carefully, and each of the slopes matches the slope of the bow hand thumb muscle very well indeed, and the grip is also well shaped such that the parts of your bow hand that should not touch the grip do not. 10 out of 10 (except I hate the addition of the tape).
Again, this is by the premier designer of recurves over their period of major developments: Earl Hoyt.

Erica's (? ) Hoyt:
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194535.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030222194447.jpg
This grip has two limitations: the slope from the side is too close to vertical and from behind it is too flat. Hence, it does not match the angles of the thumb muscle as well as it should. It surprises me that Hoyt can get their recurve grips to such a high level of excellence, but not carry that over to their compounds - perhaps they must think that the biomechanics for compounders is different to that of recurvers? (I think they should be the same).

[James Park]

2003 Hoyt (Diane Carter's, I think)
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030223210341.jpg
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030223210436.jpg
Very similar to the 2002 model, but:
- The angle from the side seems to me to be better.
- From behind it seems a little more rounded (therefore better).
It does seem to be a little more rounded towards the bottom of the grip (as seen from the side) - better.
It does seem to allow for the correct angle of the bowhand (knuckles at 45 degrees), without the shelf getting in the way.
Hence, better than 2002 and quite good, but still not perfect.

[Marcus]

Erika's Hoyt is the 2001 model. The 2002 had the same general shape but is more rounded and thinner. The 2003 was done after much feedback from the 3D Pro shooters. I would agree from shooting all three that you are pretty much correct, however I think that the 2001 shape can be shot with a decent grip and tends to want that kind of position more. The 2003 is very nice to use.
(good work by the way, awesome stuff there!)

[James Park]

I was not able to get a good picture of a Martin at the weekend. Perhaps someone could post one?
Someone (forgotten who) mentioned to me that Matthews does have higher grips than the one in the pictures above - anyone got a picture?

[Marcus]

Mathews grips
http://www.dva.asn.au/mathewsinc/home/..%5Cinclude%5Cdata%5Cproduct%5C89%5C302_2%20grips .jpg

I was thinking about getting one of these, what are your thoughts?
http://www.bowgrips.com/gripPhotos/200_HT0102HLF.jpg

[Alan Loy]

Having taken off the grips on my 2002 magnatec to reduce the amount I grip the bow it seems from this thread that I should do something else. Anything that encourages me to get the proper hand position would be a good thing.

Does anyone sell grips that fit both Jims criteria and my bow??

[mike]

Looking at the recent compound grips above, the common theme for compounds seems to be to have a closer to vertical position, which is not what recurves have. Could this be to do with the fact that a lot of compounders like to use a bent arm (which is the wrong thing to do IMHO)? Using a bent arm would mean you were coming up on to the handle from below, this making a more vertcal handle more comfortable.

Personally I don't like the near vertical position and thats why I modfied my grip. The hand just does not naturally assume a upright position when you extend your arm, so why should you force it too?

I think though looking at these handles that I might see if a Hoyt recurve grip could fit on my riser. That grip looks the pick of the bunch to me. Actually, the first thing I noticed when I had a shot of a Hoyt Gold Medallist was how nice the grip was.

[Norm]

Here is the Winact riser I shoot with it's factory grip. I find it extremely comfortable.


http://www.tisd.net/~theboyd/HandleRightSideBig.jpg
http://www.tisd.net/~theboyd/HandleFrontBig.jpg

[robbo]

Jim could the near vertical grip on the hoyts be partially responsible for a sore elbow.

I think I have exaggerated this by having more tiller on the bottom.
(which I am going to change)

[James Park]

The very low grips encourage a strong bend at the wrist joint, and that encourages a bent bow arm, and that enhances the possibility that the archer will suffer from tendinitis (especially if they use their release device properly).
Hence, Robbo, it can be a problem.

[Marcus]

Keep in mind though Robbo that a few of the examples that Jim has made of good bow hand have been using the UltraTec bows. Clint and Brian Politis both use one, perhaps you should post some images of yourself shooting, may be able to find the issue from them.

[robbo]

Thanks Jim, I am going to change the tiller and see what effect it has on the grip angle.

Marcus where did you find those hoyt grips. I saw them somewhere on the net a few months ago, was a little bit interested, but I've got no idea where I saw them.

Now with all this talk grip angle I am more interested.

Also I shot our IFAA branch titles this weekend, and I had a lot of trouble with getting my grip feeling right and I was spraying the arrows all over the place.

When I got it right the generally went some where near where I wanted.

So I am very interested in your opinion of them as well Jim.

[Marcus]

www.bowsgrips.com

[Alan Loy]

Marcus. The link doesn't appear to work. Or is that just me??

[Marcus]

sorry
www.bowgrips.com

[James Park]

Regarding the two Matthews grips:
I think they are both too low an angle (as seen from the side), and will encourage too-low a bowhand wrist position.

Regarding the Winact grip:
This seems to me to be a very good shape. The slopes do match the required angles of the thumb muscle quite nicely, and the bottom of the grip (as seen from the side) does slope away to avoid contact with the lower part of the bow hand. Hence, full marks. As seems to be the case with most high quality recurves, they have done it well.

Regarding Marcus' possible alternate Hoyt grip:
I am not keen on the discontinuity in the grip (as seen from the side). This type of discontinuity can lead to problems, especially in high humidity conditions. It would not be my choice.

[robbo]

Regarding Marcus' possible alternate Hoyt grip:
I am not keen on the discontinuity in the grip (as seen from the side). This type of discontinuity can lead to problems, especially in high humidity conditions. It would not be my choice.

Not real sure what you mean Jim. :oops:

[James Park]

Robbo,
The picture Marcus posted under the pictures of the two Matthews grips. Going from the normal Hoyt grip onto the bit that has been added there is a step about where you would normally try to have the major contact between your bowhand and the grip. It is that step I do not like.

[Marcus]

Is this what you mean Jim?
http://www.dva.asn.au/4sale/20030224231252.jpg
Never noticed that before, and agree, don't like it.

[robbo]

Jim yeah I went and had another look at it and worked out what you meant. The little join/step would get pretty anoying.

[James Park]

Yes, that is it. The Hoyt Super Star had a grip with a join at about that location, and even though the two parts were reasonably flush it was noticeable and got quite a bit of criticism.

[Marcus]

Yeah I hated that grip, used on the defiant too I think.
I always liked the optional grip that came on the PSE Elite cast risers. Very recurve like.

[Alan Loy]

I am interested in comments on this Loesch grip. Also there are 5 wrist angle possibilities to specify how do you determine which one is appropriate? (I hope the image works)

http://www.bowgrips.com/gripPhotos/hoyt%2Dbow%2Dcompound%2Dhalfgrip%2Ddual%2D400%2Ejp g

[Jolly Archer]

check out the w&w infinite riser (new grib design).

Extremely comfortable

www.win-archery.com