Recurves??? [Archive] - Archery Forum - Australia's archery related forum

Aarleks

18-02-2003, 10:40 PM

From my personal experience I would advise you to steer clear of the low level W&W limbs in the higher poundages (40# and over). I have had two sets crack on me (42# Medium Challenger Craft). The first took 2 months, the replacements only 5 weeks of shooting before they cracked. :agrue:
Of course W&W may rectify their production so this doesn't happen, but my experience forces me to warn people. So far I have missed three tournaments because of it, including two FITA Star events. So be cautious. Remember, your limbs should be the focus of your finances. Any riser will do to begin with (I have a TOZ and its great - excellent value), but your limbs are where all the action is. Get the best limbs your budget will allow.

Just my $250 worth...

recurve boy

19-02-2003, 11:41 AM

You forget the set that blew up on me Alex.
That's 3 sets of Challenger Craft 42# gone.

Its a shame since the old From A are actually very good, I have a set 38# no problems for 3 yrs.

Go with Samick entry level limbs. They may cost a tad more but they are better made from my experience.

Aarleks

19-02-2003, 11:55 AM

Ah yes... The old riser smack in the face trick. Not good. Were they your brother's?

The Hoyt Edge limbs seem excellent. One of the guys at Uni has them. Straight, strong, nice and quiet. They are somewhat more expensive, but you get what you pay for.

recurve boy

19-02-2003, 12:06 PM

Yes, my brothers.

Edge are good but I hear somewhat slow(?) ... and at that price (~$450) you can get a pair of Samick Universal carbons for just a little more.

Alan Loy

19-02-2003, 04:32 PM

If you want something cheap the Win & Win triggers seem ok.

AchmedtheGimp

20-02-2003, 10:55 PM

Why buy new? You might be able to get your hands on an older hoyt (TD4+, Radian or avalon+) for the right price. the old Carbon plus limbs still seem to be going strong as well as alot of the "hoyt style" limbs of that era. They were all good bows in their day and still perform well enough i reckon. It seems silly to buy new if you are just seeing if you like recurve.

recurve boy

21-02-2003, 11:42 AM

Why buy new?
Because sometimes its hard to get second hand stuff.

AchmedtheGimp

21-02-2003, 12:10 PM

mdavi53583 has:
Hi All,
For Sale: 1x Sky Conquest recurve bow (Blue)
70"@36lbs
G cond
$700.Hi All,
For Sale: 1x hoyt gold m recurve riser (red)
G cond
$75Hi All,
For Sale; 1x Samick Progress 2 recurve bow
68"@34lbs
G cond
$150

All from archery forum classifieds.

recurve boy

21-02-2003, 12:19 PM

I am aware of those posts. You are assuming that everybody is comfortable with dealing with people online and through post without ever meeting. Also none of those bows may suit the archer. They may not like the products, conditions they're in blah blah. Hence sometimes people consider buying new.

I'd love to get that Sky though, if I could afford it.

AchmedtheGimp

21-02-2003, 12:45 PM

Yeah, my Sky has served me well until i had to retire it a year or so ago. the brass fittings don't seem to hold up to well over time.

Jolly Archer

11-03-2003, 09:07 PM

I'm shooting the new w&w infinite riser and W&W synerzy limbs (bit more expensive than the others mentioned, but well worth the money).

All of the Korean team are now shooting this set-up, as well as Lionel Torres (france) and other top international archers.

I'm only 17, and was shooting around 1150 ladies fita s with my hoyt elan, since ive got the new w&w ive reached 1200 (not all down to the bow, but defiantly more comfortable with it)!

Not sure on the price in dollars, but in British pounds

Dave Barnes

15-03-2003, 01:41 PM

If your going to spend that much, might as well get the best which means a hoyt!!!

Jolly Archer

16-03-2003, 11:05 PM

Your still living in the past, today W&W recurves defianly have the edge!

Shirt

17-03-2003, 03:01 AM

Wrong. You're suffering from what's commonly known as "newkit-itis", which will wear off as soon as someone brings out a newer bow. If W&W are so good, why haven't more people bought the things? I was at the University champs recently, and all the people who had bought new bows since last year had gone for Aerotecs. There was one (1) Infinite, and that's because he got it cheap.

And personally, I suspect W&W are full of **** with the titanium bits in the limbs helping moments of inertia or whatever.

Jolly Archer

17-03-2003, 09:00 AM

Well im not sure where your from, but in my club there are already 5 people that either own the new riser and/or limbs. Also the top recurve archers in the world are using them (Frangilli, Torres and a large number of Koreans)! Hoyt have still got a better name, simply because they have been in the game longer! W&W have been around for a fraction of the time and still developing as good if not better equipment!

Admittedly a lot of it is down to personal preferance to which bow you shoot though!

ZenArcher

17-03-2003, 01:38 PM

Having owned both a W&W ExFeel and currently own a Hoyt Aerotec.

In regards to adjustment and tuning. The Hoyt Rules. Using the shim system to relocate limb centreing is a godsend. It is SOOOOO easy and quick and also 100% repeatable and doesn't come undone and move around. That was the one thing I hated about my ExFeel. I would spend hours getting the limbs centred , then, after having tigthened up the 3 allen key head grub screws, which were so small it wasn't funny. The limbs would shift after a month of shooting. I found this out eventually, by putting marks on the adjustment areas to watch for movement . My training consisted of 150 arrows per day with 200+ on weekends. Then having to go through the process of tuning the limb centres again.

With the aerotec, it has been a case of set and forget. I won't comment on how they both shot. But suffice to say I liked the aerotec better. Less vibration. But I must say that the vibration wasn't noticeable until I shot David Barnes' Axis. We swapped bows to see what each bow was like and he didn't like the ExFeel at all, too much vibration - whereas I wanted to keep his Axis, practically no vibration. Hence I sold the ExFeel and bought an Aerotec.

recurve boy

17-03-2003, 02:44 PM

Shirt: I've seen the Synerzy limbs and had a go. They are indeed very fast and very stable as W&W claim. Whether this is due to the titanium or not I don't know. But they are a good limb.

As for vibration. Wouldn't that be personal preference? Some people like the 'pop' of lighter risers while others like the stability of really heavy risers like the Axis. Given that the archer knows what he likes and has adapted to his bow would shooting an Axis/Aerotec be much better than a Infinite or Agulla?

And really, what is the I-beam for? I've heard one reason it was added was that is lowered the failure rate of Hoyt risers. Does it give any real advantage to traditional, non-tec designs in terms of accuracy etc?

Marcus

17-03-2003, 03:29 PM

Does it give any real advantage to traditional, non-tec designs in terms of accuracy etc?
Yes. The TEC design is 2 1/2 times stiffer than a non-Ibeam riser. A stiffer riser is more accurate because it does not flex as much, flex leads to variables in the shot. The TEC design also cuts down on vibration to the hand, which lessens fatigue. Note that Win and Win have a bow with the carbon back designed to make it stiffer.

Another key point that you will see more of is that because the I beam adds so much strength that the TEC risers are getting lighter. Look at a 2003 Compound riser around the grip area. They can vastly cut down the area there and keep the bow strong.

Most recurve archers I know who have shot the Aerotec love it, including some who were very anti TEC before trying.

I would not go anywhere near as far as saying Win and Win produce as good equipment as Hoyt. They produce excellent gear, but in this case the Hoyt is the duck's guts!
Mr Lee said at the High Performance coaching session that a recurve only has to be straight, otherwise they are the same. He then said however there is one bow that is above the rest and the team will be using those. That would be the AeroTec.

Shirt

17-03-2003, 08:49 PM

Well im not sure where your from...

York. As in, about three hours north of you.

As to Michele Frangilli, last I heard he was still using the Best-Zenit thing, or whatever it is - or at least, he was at the World Indoor Champs ten days ago...

The Koreans use them because they are made in Korea, and so there's closer involvement between design team and shooters.

And the only major UK shooter I can think of I know to be using them is Simon Needham - who was sponsored by Yamaha. And who just bought most of Yamaha Archery? W&W... :roll:

Don't I look the nasty cynical sceptic? :lol: :lol:

Aarleks

17-03-2003, 09:03 PM

Frangilli shoots the Zenit riser with 70" 50# Synerzy limbs.

www.frangilli.com

recurve boy

17-03-2003, 10:34 PM

Yes. The TEC design is 2 1/2 times stiffer than a non-Ibeam riser. A stiffer riser is more accurate because it does not flex as much, flex leads to variables in the shot. The TEC design also cuts down on vibration to the hand, which lessens fatigue. Note that Win and Win have a bow with the carbon back designed to make it stiffer.

How stiff is it in relation to the old GM? The GM was the stiffest riser around till the Axis came out.

I'm not anti-tec (well, I currently don't really like them since they're heavy but would not be opposed to shooting one if it will increase my scores :) ) but I've yet to see proof that TEC is vastly superior and that you cannot have a more traditional looking bow that is just as good if not better.

Until Hoyt releases the results of their research and it gets reviewed by the appropriate third parties, I shall remain unconvinced.

Shirt

18-03-2003, 12:10 AM

Frangilli shoots the Zenit riser with 70" 50# Synerzy limbs.

www.frangilli.com

So I was half-right. Cheers. :D

Jolly Archer

18-03-2003, 07:14 AM

This is turning into quite an interesting topic! I will quite happily say that HOYT are an excellent bow manufacture, I have shot the Aerotec and I did love it! I also shot the Infinite but loved it that bit more! Has anybody else had the limb allignment problems on the EXFEEL?? or even the Infinite?? (Just curious). I shot mine constantly for 1 week at Lilleshall development course and had no problems what so ever! One of the coaches there tried it and ended up buying one shortly after!

Has anybody tried the new HOYT matrix (i noticed they have not used the IBEAM design)!

Marcus

18-03-2003, 07:23 AM

The current Hoyts weigh

AeroTec: 2lb 10oz
Matrix: 2lb 10oz
GM: 2lb 10oz

The Aeotec is a lot stiffer than the GM. The GM was a stiff riser for a cast riser, however a cast riser will always have more flex than a milled. The AeroTec is 2 1/2 times stiffer than a milled riser.
Hoyt released the Matrix for those that wanted a non Tec and because in FITA barebow the TEC riser is too wide, so the Matrix is FITA Barebow legal.

Not rubbishing the other recurves out there at all, I'ld be pretty keen to have a shot of the Win and Win top line stuff.

Jolly Archer

18-03-2003, 07:34 AM

At the end of the day i think there is so little difference in the top range equipment it is all down the how the individual bow suits you! You might be able to gain a point or two on a bit of equipment but you'll get 10 by improving your form or practicing more!

recurve boy

18-03-2003, 04:57 PM

At the end of the day i think there is so little difference in the top range equipment it is all down the how the individual bow suits you!

My thoughts exactly. Tec may very well indeed give you a much stiffer riser that is theoretically much better, but I think all risers far surpass all their owners so Tec means squat. 2.5 times stiffer really means "its 2.5 times stiffer than it'll ever need to be since no one can shoot so well that it becomes significant".

Marcus

18-03-2003, 05:26 PM

Disagree

While in theory every bow shot from a shooting machine may well produce perfect results, a bow that is not promotng of accuracy in humans will not allow an archer to get their best results. For example a bow will poor balence, inconsistant limb pockets, too uch flex, etc etc will mean an archer will perform below their best.

Fact is that in perfect conditions a 1975 Hoyt will shoot 1440's. Now hand back your current bow and see how well you shoot with one of those.
Modern bows are designed to help an archer perform at their highest level, hense the reason many scores have improved greatly over the last 10 years. Now you may only see a few points difference between say a Hoyt AeroTec and Win and Win Infiniti, however that's progress. More people are shooting 1300+ than ever before, and that is due to the technology.

So basically, while you may well not shoot better with a Hoyt over your current bow, these improvements are important to improving accuracy, otherwise don't bother upgrading ANY of your gear till you shoot a 1400. :wink:

Jolly Archer

18-03-2003, 06:55 PM

I agree there as well! what i meant was are you really going to notice the difference in top range equipment?? Of course you can see the difference between an Aerotec and a GM, or infinite and Trigger.

Shirt

19-03-2003, 08:45 AM

Can I tell the difference between a GM and an Aerotec? Yes.
Can I tell the difference between an Avalon Plus and an Aerotec? Yes, but mainly through knowing what an Aerotec feels like at the shot and thus the Avalon feels funny. [1]
Could I tell the difference between an Infinite and an Exfeel? Probably not - I've never got on with W&W stuff. :lol:

0.02

[1] For real fun, stand about four feet from the boss. Blindfold yourself, and get someone to hand you a bare bow. Riser of their choice, your limbs, and shoot. If the grip is the same, it's quite interesting to see who gets it right.

Marcus

19-03-2003, 08:50 AM

The archery version of the Pepsi challenge!

That would be fun!

Jolly Archer

19-03-2003, 07:37 PM

2Dogs

19-03-2003, 09:42 PM

Well one thing that has changed significantly in the last 6 years or so is the Limbs.

When I was banging in the scores in the late 80's and early 90's the bows stacked like pigs. You needed to be pretty strong to shoot them well.

Now I got me one of these new fandangled Areotec's with FX limbs..........well the dam thing feels like 42# at full draw and I'm shooting 48"

I got the old carbon plus limbs out of the cupboard at the same 44# as my new FX. No comparison!....newer limbs are so easy to shoot.

So yeah it's no surprise to me to see the scores in the recurve world going up.

The other reason the scores have risen everywhere is the exchange of information on shooting recurve available to archers......this dam internet ruined all the "secrets" :rofl:

recurve boy

20-03-2003, 04:40 PM

While in theory every bow shot from a shooting machine may well produce perfect results, a bow that is not promotng of accuracy in humans will not allow an archer to get their best results. For example a bow will poor balence, inconsistant limb pockets, too uch flex, etc etc will mean an archer will perform below their best.

I agree with that, but my feeling is that bows nowadays, especially at the high end - ok, perhaps only at the high end, already far surpass what anyone can do. Hence Aerotec is theoretically better than Infinite but both are so good already that really it comes down to which one feels (and looks) better to the archer.

Jolly Archer

20-03-2003, 06:52 PM

Ok, but why is the Aerotec theoretically better than the Infinite???? Other than that I do agree.

Shirt

20-03-2003, 08:49 PM

Have you ever shot an infinite and exfeel? Have you compared them by shooting one after the other? I have to admit I didn't really think much of the exfeel although i only tried it briefly. As for the limbs my first set of international were W&W and i was pleased with them grew out of them quite quickly. W&W are great starter bows, im not too sure about the middle range bows but the top of the range stuff to me is excellent!

I tried the Infinite and the Exfeel briefly (like a couple of dozen arrows), and the Winact for a FITA 18. I didn't get a great opinion of any of them, and really didn't think much of the Winact.

Do you know why you didnt get on well with the W&W equipment? Or was it just one of them things you don't know why?

I didn't like the feel of the Winact after the shot. The Exfeel felt OK, but for how much they were wanting to charge me should have had some sort of "special" feel to it. Not necessarily feel like my ideal bow, but at least there should be something distinctive. The Infinite - I didn't like the grip at the time, although currently I'm playing with mine to see what happens. I really didn't like the balance of the bare bow - I think the carbon made it feel funny. Although after the shot it was quite nice...

As to limbs, they seem to stack like crazy with my shooting, and I'm not shelling out anything for limbs that stack.

Do you think any other manufacturers are better than W&W? TOP 3 companies???????
Top 3:
Recurve: Hoyt, Merlin, W&W. But I'm not too sure about the order of the last two :lol: W&W do make nice stuff, I just don't seem to get on with it.
Compound: Hoyt, Martin, and I think either Bowtech or Mathews - probably Bowtech for the BK2. (350 fps - drool!)

recurve boy

21-03-2003, 12:46 AM

Ok, but why is the Aerotec theoretically better than the Infinite???? Other than that I do agree.
Its stiffer. As Marcus said, stiffer means less vibration on release so more acurate shot. Theoretically. This would be a good thesis for some mech eng student. Study various riser designs, test them and then find the optimum riser shape.

Marcus

21-03-2003, 07:26 AM

Also I would theorise that the Hoyt AeroTec would prove more accurate than the Infinite on the basis that it also has a better grip and suspect tighter tolerences.
However the Infinite should be a very accurate riser if you can get the grip working OK on he basis that it's carbon backing would make it stiffer. So whilethe AeroTec would be 2 1/2 time tifer than a standardriser, the Infinite would be in between the 2.

As recurve boy has been saying anyway, it can be a mute point if you shoot better with the W&W.

An interesting riser could be the PSE X Factor. Possibly the ugliest bow on the planet. However they have spent alot of time working on balence. Hope to see one soon.

recurve boy

21-03-2003, 04:33 PM

Possibly the ugliest bow on the planet.

Yes. However, that probably means its everything they say it is.

Actually, I think the Variable riser looks uglier. What the hell were they thinking?

Shirt

21-03-2003, 08:16 PM

What the hell were they thinking?

They weren't. That's the whole problem.

22-03-2003, 11:40 PM

regarding the grips on aerotecs - for the money i spent i would have liked a wooden one and the plastic ones are hollow backed so if you really went at it with a file there isnt a graet deal to work with. however the plastic is hard enough that it can take sanding without the generated heat being a problem.
after i sanded it (no change to shape just size) someone said you can buy the grips in different sizes is this true?

recurve boy

23-03-2003, 03:25 PM

I think they meant you can get a medium grip or a low grip. They're still fat.

Yes, Hoyt has gone all cheapo on their grips. They don't even bother to take the seem off. So after hours of shooting you get this red line down your palm. Aren't they making enough money already?

Jolly Archer

24-03-2003, 03:07 AM

Apparently they used plastic grips on the Aerotec because people didn't like the wooden ones on the Axis. There were a lot of International archers that fitted a plastic grip onto the axis (Jonathan Shales wrote an article about it in one of the archery magazines). There have been a couple of people from my club who fitted the wooden Avalon grip to their Aerotec. According to Hoyt they don't fit, but i have seen it work.

grantwomack

24-03-2003, 09:18 AM

I've been thinking of an idea along the lines of what recurve boy said. With regards to the vibrations in the riser after release, how difficult would it be to design risers around the archer? I'm talking along the lines of those machines that fuse metal together with a laser and can build components with the 3D designs plotted into the system. Or even an XYZ machine that can machine a riser in a matter of minutes exactly designed to eliminate the vibrations caused by someone's shot. It would take into account draw length, hand placement, draw weight, kinetic energy exerted by the limbs, etc, etc... Maybe something for 2020? Any thoughts?

Jolly Archer

24-03-2003, 08:39 PM

Also I would theorise that the Hoyt AeroTec would prove more accurate than the Infinite on the basis that it also has a better grip and suspect tighter tolerences.

That is your opinion though Marcus. Design wise the Infinite has a better grip! It may not suite some people, simply because it is a high grip!

compound boy

27-03-2003, 08:27 PM

Alright, that's it. You want a stiffness test? Go buy Strand 7 and simulate drawing the AeroTec and Infinite with their respective compositions in material. All done using Finite Element Analysis.

Then check for vibrations in real life using transducers hooked up to the computer. The same equipment is used to check the flex and behaviour of turbine blades under operating conditions.

Compare. Definitely something for a mechanical engineering student to look into.

Seriously, there's a limit to human feeling when you're an AeroTec boy. Ask the techs.

MerlinApexDylan

27-03-2003, 08:44 PM

Check out Alternative sporting services under intermediate recurve bows. Win and Win is using the equipment they bought off of Yamaha to create a new forged riser, and the carbon limbs aren't even a bad price. I believe the company name for these bows is Wintec. It's a Win&Win product. Good shooting.
Dylan
www.alternativess.com