zen of archery

[harpo]

can any one tell me the author and publisher of the book zen of archery ?
was told its a great read but cant find it. 8)

[TomL]

Harpo,

the exact title is "Zen in the art of Archery" and is written by Eugen Herrigel.
If you want to read more about the psychology of archery you can go to
http://www.tenzone.u-net.com/psych/index.htm

Tom

[Pete]

I read it and found it completely worthless for my archery. However, it is a good read about the authors experiences with zen archery (and flower arranging for his wife). I dont get why people think this book is so good because it has little relevance to modern archery.

[minotaure]

Here is a scan of the cover.

http://www.knhs-concordia.org/files/jpg/yabb/zen%20and%20the%20art%20of%20archery.jpg

Printed 1971

[harpo]

thanks for the info this sounds like the book for me as i love archery and
grow flowers for a living :roll:

[marty]

There is an interesting analysis of "Zen in the Art of Archery" at

http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/myth/MythZenArchery.pdf

[OldDog]

Zen you should like it harpo. :D
good luck mate

[CMB50]

What the hell is Zen anyway?

like ying and yang bullsh*it?? Or that Aura crap???

:-?

[TomL]

Zen is a form of Buddhism with the emphasis on meditation.
And as you should know archery is 20% technique and 80% mental concentration, so any form of mental training, whether it is Zen, Yoga or I don't know what, it's no bullsh*it in relation to archery.
That is by the way the biggest mistake most archers (myself included) make, we should train our subconscious 4 times more then our shooting!

[CMB50]

Ok, so i should be praying to the God of Zen or something??

hell thats too much work.... has he got an email address??? be a lot easier.

My archery problems don't lie in the mental side of things ( and no this is not debatable) it's purely the equipment i am shooting is way below my capabilites...

maybe zen, yin or yang can send me a new bow or some good arrows... hell i take cash donations!

[TomL]

It has nothing to do with some kind of god!
See it as a way of living

And I don't mean you have to start living as a Buddhist monk!

Those monks use meditation to purify their soul (or something like that), we archers need to use the meditation to clear our subconscious, so any kind of doubt, while shooting, is eliminated. It can also be used to visualise your shot, once again, with the same goal : eliminating any doubt what so ever.

[Marcus]

20% technique and 80% mental concentration

No way! Archery is
33& Mental
33% technique
33% technical (equipment)

Some spend too long on 2 of those three things and never get the full piece of the puzzle. You can be metally perfect and have good technique, but if your gear doesn't work you are screwed. You can be mentally correct and have awesome gear but if your technique is wrong you are screwed. Most people have around 80% of each area covered.
Of course this is my opinion and untill I write a book about it while holidaying in Japan I shall have no creditbility.

Just look at Japanese archers. They are so mentally focused it's scary, yep they can't hit the side of a barn because their gear is not good enough.

I do agree that the mental side is something archers do not practise enough.

[mike]

No way! Archery is
33& Mental
33% technique
33% technical (equipment

Marcus, this all just goes to show that it's the "one percenters" that make all the difference.

[recurve boy]

I'd have to disagree with the 33% equipment. You need sufficiently good equipment that's true but I don't think you need to spend a third your efforts messing around with it or trying to aquire more of it. And you certainly don't need the lastest greatest equipment to shoot brilliant scores.

[James Park]

I work on the basis that most gear can be made to work acceptably well. Hence, get it right once and then put effort into the other things.
Regarding form: Most archers have form errors, and would benefit from a few fixes. In fact, I see few archers who would have everything as I would wish them to have it. The majority of archers certainly have form errors that cost them points.
Regarding the mental side: If you have the mental side under control you should always score better in competition than in practice (given equal weather conditions). However, only a small proportion of archers do so. You only need to look at Leigh Cornish for example - often does not score well in practice, but just a wonderful and very successful competitor (I have seen Leigh score 288 indoor at Moorabbin on a Tuesday and then near 300 in competition the following weekend). I do, however, hear of many wonderful scores in practice and then see those archers never near the top (or those practice scores) when it matters - definitely says to me that those archers have not got the mental bit in order.
I would not try to put percentages on equipment, form and mental, but rather say that each of them needs to be correct if you are to get the best results.
Regarding the effort required to get them correct: For the equipment it is easy and should take at most a couple of hours (took me all of 1 hour and 6 shots to assemble and setup my Primos, and I shot 351 at 70M with it). For techniques, I think it can take a while, and it would not be unusual for six months to be needed to embed a change, however once a good techique is gained it should not take a lot of maintenance.
For the mental side: I include here the technique of using the release device / clicker, as well as how the archer thinks about what he is doing, and I see this as learning a few basic techniques and then constant maintenance. It is this area where I spend all of my practice. I am not into the meditation bit, but just a few simple techniques that enable you to remain focussed and to repeat shots reliably.

[Marcus]

recurve boy
While I believe that all 3 areas muct be correct to get right different archers will find each bit more difficult to master. Some are great bow techs but have poor mental control, others have great mental control, but can't tune a bow. Most of the best shooters in the world have excellent form, know bows back to front and are great in comps. 3
3% technical doesn't mean buy the latest and great, just means you must be able to get the most from your gear to reach that mark, and in my experiance that most shooters under MB are not getting the most from their gear.

[James Park]

Marcus makes a good point. I have often shot other archers' gear, and just about invariably the gear used by the top archers is better set up and shoots more sweetly than that of the average archer, even though the gear might otherwise be identical.
Of course you do get the exception: Rod Miller was trying to shoot his Thunderbolt at a brace height of just under 6" at the DVA tournament (normal would be 7 1/4"). At that brace height it would have been very terrible.

[Kuru]

I've read the book and to say it's true zen buddhism is highly dubious to say the least ! But religion on archery forums is best left alone

[recurve boy]

Marcus, James, agree. You should get the most out of your equipment. But I fear that too many archers will also take that to mean that they must also have the best equipment and spend lots of time fiddling with it rather than shoot. There will obviously be a few upgrades from time to time especially if you find that something is just not working for you (like multi rods ... I tried everything to get those things to work right).

How many people mean the religion when they say "Zen"? When I use the word I mean something is sort of mysterious and wierd.

[frommy]

Zenarcher is very quiet on this topic. I think he could give you some good serious discussion on this topic as he is a believer.

I have read the book, and wondered why I did. But I have just received my copy of Archery Focus in the mail and read Part 2 of "In Korea" by Chris Shull of the US of A.

While the KAA training regime does not seem to feature Zen, some of the basic principles seem similar in the early stages of training.

[TomL]

Marcus, I'm not saying your gear ain't important, but the moment you start a tournement, your gear should be okay, or at least you're not going to make big changes unless they're absolutely needed (some kind of failure)
You should take some time at the begining of the season to properly setup your bow, and try a few things (like dif arrows, dif nocking points,...) but after that the only thing to do is check your gear once and a while to see ifg everything is still OK.
If you do make a change half way down the season, it's only a matter a finding the settings again (which should go fast) in case you changed a gear thing. If you change something like your draw lenght, that has more to do with technique.
Mental training is not only meditation, when you shoot some arrows with your eyes closed, that is a form of mental training. A good example of lack of mental training is target panic or yellow fever (or what name you give it). That only exist in your head! There are some exercises to get rid of it, but that too is a form of mental training.
Meditation is more needed when you'll have to perform in a stressy situation, like championships, but it is something you have to learn, you can't say 'hey, I have to shoot the championship next week, I'll better start to do some meditation'. If you look at the training plans provided by FITA, there is a lot of yoga and visualisation.

[AchmedtheGimp]

I think it would be a good idea to make a differentiation between compound and recurve here fellas. The nature of the different bows alone means that the archer needs to have a different focus when they shoot them ie compound is more equipment driven whilst recurve is more technique driven (putting it VERY basically). For that reason I agree with Jim that it is hard to apply a hard and fast percentage to their importance.

Compound or Recurve, one area will always seem to be more important than another when you are having problems with it! :-?

From a recurve point of view the Koreans have it right because they are taught good technique before they even touch a bow, little lone shoot at a target. Probably why they don't seem to have any mental "weaknesses" because they are focussing on what they are doing during a shot and not where they would like their arrow to land.

[ZenArcher]

Hey Frommy,

Yeah, I could write lots on the topic of Zen in general, but mostly on Zen Buddhism but only because of my studies into not only archery but other martial arts and religions and te use of Zen in those arts by the practitioners or master as it were.

I haven't because I feel that many would want to argue for the sake of it (arguing) with much of what I have researched as they have closed minds and don't want to listen or learn or just plain want to argue. Should have see the number of e-mails I got when my article on "Punks and Sages" was published in Archery Focus a while back. Most people liked it, others just wanted to argue. Like I have said to a lot of people, lose your ego and you will accomplish your dreams. Open your minds like a sponge, take it all in and learn and listen.

I've also been a bit busy, now that I am working at the AIS as the assistant coach and haven't been on-line much and have some catching up to do in regards to the threads here.

I must say that I agree with the write up given on the Texas state archery website on the "Zen in the Art of Archery" book. There are other better books to read if you truly want to learn. The book is simply a chain of events that the author went through, it doesn't really teach you anything at all. But that is just IMHO.

[2Dogs]

Hey CMB50

hell thats too much work.... has he got an email address??? be a lot easier

2dogs@archeryforum.com.au :rofl:

[frommy]

Zen, your last paragraph sums up my opinion of the book as well, and you give this opinion as a person of some authority IMHO as someone who has seriously studied and practiced zen.

Good luck with the AIS job. A big move from downtown Gunnedah.

Brian

[CMB50]

Open your minds like a sponge, take it all in and learn and listen.



there's got to be a better metaphore to use than 'like a sponge' - smelly, soggy and full of bacteria???

[OldDog]

ok





You obviously have you own ideas on the benefits of mental training Zen archer, but until the oriental mind predominates the euopean way of thinking you are wasting your time, Rarely has the eastern philosophy mastered the western way of thinking. until it does I will continue to rely on good old aussie enginuity, guts and dtermination.
It prevails over all other forms of mental discipline.

[CMB50]

2dogs? zen god? LOL. i knew there was another reason i was a non believer!!! LMAO

[ZenArcher]

Hey Frommy,

Yeah, big move and it was a bit of a worry with the bush fires around. Also very difficult to find somewhere to live, not just because of the bushfires, but I found out from several real estate agents that we went through for rental accommodation that we were being overlooked by the landlords simply because we were a family with kids. But we finally moved into a place last week.

Looking forward to the trials starting on monday and after that the office move into the new archery venue.

Everyone has their own opinion on Zen and any other kind of mental training. Personally I can sit on both sides of the fence in regards to many things. Though I am of asian origins, I was born in Australia, (in Moree no less which is one of the most racial places around that I have lived in )and was brought up with both cultures so have an understanding of both cultures and ways of thought and philosophies. I'll leave it at that. So yeah, I can understand where Noel is coming from with his thoughts. Eastern philosophies are difficult to understand and this entirely transfers over to archery training. I mean what other archery training facility in the world would make their archers swim in shark infested waters, carry a boat up a mountain, spend a night in the morgue/cemetry etc just for mental training for the world champs (For those who don't know, it was the Koreans just before the last World Champs.

:)

[TomL]

Noel,

good to hear you have a european way of thinking :)

[OldDog]

Very well constructed answer there Zen, you obviously learnt diplomacy in Moree. Cunnamulla boy myself, saw the same racism you did on both sides of the fence, it hasnt changed much from what i see. Look forward to seeing you perform in your new capacity.
Yo Tom, european yes, we all are to a degree. but as a sixth generation Australian we have added our own twist to our way of looking at the world.

[2Dogs]

How long ago did you live in Moree Matt?

I've been stuck in Goondiwindi for the last 11 years and haven't met a target Archer yet :(..............did travel over to the Moree Archery Club on a few occaisions but they stiffed me eveytime :D and never met anyone over there either. That's why I took up Golf, went to the Moree Golf Club many times.

Moree......well lets just say I'm glad I live in Goondiwindi, and I can understand why someone would NOT want to live there.

[ZenArcher]

2Dogs,

I was born in Moree and left there 9 years ago. The Moree club ? Well, non existent now, but when I shot there I just hung out with a small group of friends and stayed away from the others. Too much in-fighting and eventually I had enough and left.

I used to play a lot of golf there at the Moree Golf club too. Love all the dog legs they have. Do they still play night golf there ? That was the first time I ever played golf. Most people were half tanked before they hit the first tee and because the clear plastic ball had one of those mini glow sticks inside it made the same sound as the Jetsons car from the cartoon show when it flew through the air. Pretty hilarious night.

Noel
Yeah, wonderful town Moree.(NOT)I was THE ONLY asian kid in school, so you can imagine how much I copped it every day. Glad I left there.
I don't know if it is any better now, I visit my Mum, who still lives there, but tend to just stay home and fix things around the house for her, rather than go out.

The new job is great, have spent a lot of time tuning bows as though the archers shoot very consistently and very high scores, their bows weren't all that well tuned, plus I've lost count as to the number of strings I have made. But that is all fixed now and the way they have been shooting over the past few days I am expecting them to all shoot very well at the selection trials this week. Depending on conditions that is as we have had some humid weather since the rain and have had rain showers off and on today. Also have naturally spent a lot of time learning mountains of knowledge from Mr Lee as well and writing it all down so I don't forget.

[OldDog]

feel your childhood pain zen archer, I had some school mates from different ethnic background and spent a fair bit of time sticking up for them.
btw what is this MR............. lee thing, This is Australia, crikey we dont even call our prime minister mister, he's just john howard to most of us.
When in Rome dude. :D

[ZenArcher]

G'Day Noel

Being brought up with both asian and australian philosophies. So this is my way of showing respect to someone who is not only my boss but a great archer and coach. . This is also what the scholarship archers call him as well. Probably showing my age here as well, I shocked a few people when I told them just how old I am, most people think I am mid 20's, wish I was but far away from it.

To prevent mix-ups the archers are meant to call me "Coach Lee" but I didn't like that as I have known everyone here on scholarship for a long time, so I just asked them to call me Matt. For a laugh I should have said for them to call me by my Chinese name, but no one can pronounce it properly, other than other asian people. :lol: :lol: I can't even spell it in english to get the proper pronounciation :lol:

[Marcus]

Interesting stuff.
My wife is half chinese and her family is the chinese side. Different views on life etc and while I often don't agree, it's great to have it there.

As for Zen in archery. There is a bit of underlining feel of "you should learn this Zen stuff as that's the secret to winning" when I simply don't believe it. It's not a religious area I have much knowledge in (prefer western Europe stuff myself) however I think it's one thing to approach the sport with a clear mind and peaceful calm feelings. It's another to attack the 10 with all you have. Both work and sometimes one better than the other. If you are always shooting in an excited state you would be better off using a Zen meditation technique to lower your emotional state of mind and move you into that perfect balence, Others are too flat so Zen would likely not do them any good when what they need to do is raise their emotional state.
I guess look at the Olympic Champions. I not sure if a Korean male has ever won one. I would guess that they are not aggressive enough for it.

From what I have seen of Zen in the art of Archery is that if you want to be a better archer mentally, buy a Sports psychology book.

BTW good to see you online again Matt!

[OldDog]

on the run to another job Zen, Look forward to having a yarn with you at the nationals, We share a fair amount of childhood experience. cya.

[ZenArcher]

Marcus,

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Exactly. Each archer needs to be honest 100% with themselves and knowing what makes you tick and how you think. This is the key to a lot of things in archery, how you should aim, if Zen studies will help in archery or if you are better off approaching other aspects of mental skills to help etc etc. I am certainly not closed in that I think Zen is for everyone. I have also met with sports psychologists as well as had sessions with sports hypnotherapists. But it alls boils down to what you said. Some people need to be calm and relaxed to shoot well, others seem to need a "go get'em" hyped up attitude. Everyone is different. Are you and your wife going to be at the Nationals ? Or perhaps the Australia Day tournament here in Canberra ? Would be good to meet in person and have a chat.

Noel - yes, will be at the Nationals. I think we are arriving on the monday or tuesday. So will catch up and have a chat.

[Marcus]

I really enjoy sports phycology so it will be great to chew the fat with you on it. Yes we are going to the Nats for sure. We won't be at the Australia Day shoot as our State Short Range is that weekend. (lots of new club members are going and I want to be there to support them)
seeya then