Junior archer seeks pro advice/critique for an article

[sepdet]

I'm a target archer who uses traditional methods and equipment in a medieval recreationist group. I posted a detailed article on my personal website covering the archery stunts and equipment in Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring, and to my surprise I'm getting about 2 thousand visitors a day. A lot of people write telling me it's their first real look at archery, and they find it very informative. But I'm just a hobbyist!

I desperately need an expert to look over what I've said and tell me where I'm completely off the mark. I'd like to be accurate, as well as entertaining, and represent the sport better to the general public.

Here's the article:

The Boy With the Bow (http://www.istad.org/tolkien/pilinn.html): Virtual and Actual Danged Cool Archery in the Fellowship of the Ring

No surprise why it's so popular.
Apologies in advance for the amateur caliber of my comments. Please help me improve it with critique and observations, and I will be happy to add a "with thanks to x, y, and z for advice and critique" line at the bottom of the page.

[Marcus]

Hey, welcome aboard
Most of the article meant little to me as I found the film pretty dull and couldn't remember the names. Photos would be handy.
In general not bad.
Bows are literally farsighted weapons; they're hard to aim over short distances, since the arrow comes off the string at tremendous force and actually starts out bent, taking several feet to straighten out its path and stabilize.
This really isn't that true. It's far far easier to it a target at 5m than 90m. Most archers can hit a 5c coin size target consistantly over dozens of arrows at 5m. Even with fingers it only takes a few feet to straighten up, and at 1-5m a person is a big target. Your other reasons for not using one for hand to hand is more valid. The way the elf loaded and fired was extreme and unlikely. It wouldn't surprise me if he had no arrow during the filming on those. (of course I could be wrong as I have not seen the making).
I'd guess Legolas' bows are a respectable 45# or so, common in traditional archery
I would guess that he shot around the 20-30# mark for the movie, however if it was real life he would require around the 90-120# mark to be effective. Arrows that can punch through armour require a massive broadhead and at 40# just simply wouldn't be able to move the weight required. Most medievil war arrows were around the 700+ grains. 140 yards is not a long way, and in war situations most bows were shot at about 200-300m.
Remains of medievil archers has shown massive build up in the bones of the left forearm. Indicating massive draw weights.

This does not stop Legolas, who can hit targets at 3 feet as well as 300 yards
In reality unlikely to be able to hit a man sized target at 300 yards with a war arrow. Shooting that kind of distance would require a 140+# longbow and to hit it accuratly is more than unlikely. In medievil war situations the archers relyed on the fact that they were raining arrows, not on one archer being accurate.
However elves are meant to be expert marksmen. Even with that they would need their arrows weighted perfectly otherwise the height variation at long range would kill any accuracy they may have.

One of the bad guys was shooting what looked similar to a composite bow and was drawing back by holding the arrow. This is highly unlikely and terribly innaccurate to my knowledge. He would have most likely used a thumb ring on a short bow like that, which is also highly accurate (more so than fingers)

Good luck. You are welcome to link to our site as a referrence to modern archery.

[sepdet]

*jots down notes*

Interesting comment about the composite bow; I'd totally forgotten thumb rings! Which is silly, because I started with a thumb draw before I built up enough strength to use my fingers. (I've shot since '91, but I keep winding up living in big cities and letting my skills lapse).

I apologize for the lack of pictures: I had them up earlier, but the hordes of fans were chewing up my monthly bandwidth quota too fast. The company selling replicas of the weapons has offered to host my article, so I'll be able to get the pictures back then, but before I do that I need to tidy up my writing and fix my mistakes.


Thanks again! Maybe I'll learn something while doing all this.

Of course, I'll probably learn all the mistakes in the movies I'm too clueless to see, but that's all right. :)

The riders in the second film are using some sort of composite bow where the lower limb pulls in further than the top: Mongolian? I know I've seen asymmetrical horsebows before, but I've never seen one shot. And one mounted archer used the old Thracian trick that so aggravated the Greeks, where you shoot two ahead and then twist in the saddle and shoot behind. Computer graphics or no, that's the first time I've seen a horse bow put to its proper use, so I liked it!

[sepdet]

I've added new pictures of the bows and some of the shots I was describing, now that I've found images elsewhere on the web. Check out some of the crazy props.

[clash]

hi

love ur site :)

i found thi the other day on the net lookin up archery stuff, no idea if it will be usefull for u nad if its even true but ill copy it in here for u

id love to try traditional archery, at the moment i got a compound bow, but i just dont think its a REAL bow one day when im rich and famous ill get a traditional one :D

ok ill copy that stuff

Movie notes
The bows used in the move were not real. They were rubber. Legolas, and other "dry fired" there bows. That means that they only pretend to shot the arrows. The arrows are added later digitally. Also makes it safer for whoever he's shooting towards.

What it might be in real life... these are specs
it looks like Legolas shoots a longbow with reflex bend through the handle. Or..and english longbow with recurve tips

== Tammy

Legolas shoots a long recurve and Aragorn shoots a flat longbow. Since they are men I would say that a working bow for them would be in the 60 - 80 pound range.

Be aware that most of these bows are made from laminated wood as 'self-wood' bows, like the kind Legolas appears to have, stack very heavily, i.e., have a faster buildup of the power needed to draw them the further back you pull the string. Also Legolas' bow appears to be round, which completely baffles me. Maybe I just haven't seen it from the right angle. Another thing that seems wrong is that neither men use shooting fingers. You would have to have a heck of a set of calluses for the string to not take the skin off your fingers at that weight. We can assume that Legolas and Aragorn do because they have been shooting bows all their lives, but Orlando and Viggo would have not had any fingertips left if those were real working bows at the appropriate drawweights.

== Morag

The original and still the best site for information on buying, making and shooting traditional bows. Howard Hill is the father of the renaissance of traditional archery
http://www.3riversarchery.com/
some history
http://www.archeryhistory.com/longbows/longbowsmain.htm
http://www.bowmaker.net/
http://www.greatplains.pampa.com/
http://www.stickbow.com/massie/
http://ns1.bowsite.org/acb/Category.cfm?&DID=9&CATID=1
long list of bowyers
http://www.women-outdoors.com/traditional/bowyers1.htm
wide selection and second hand bows
www.oldbow.com/
my favorite bowyer, they made my bow in 1992 when they were still Monarch Longbows in Missoula, sweet bow at 45 pounds draw weight.
http://www.aspenlongbow.com/
some FAQs to give you an idea how to choose a traditional bow and how they compare to compound (mechanized pulley wheel bows (not really bows at all in my opinion))
http://www.monarch-bows.com/faq.html
this site tells you how to make a self bow
http://www.stickbow.com/features/index.cfm?feature=selfbows


ok yhats it :) might be usefull

cya clash

[Mezza]

That is a fantastic web site. Notice in the two main pictures the use of the pinch grip (indian/mongol) and the meditarian three finger grip...

I tried to take notice of the archery in LOTR but in the pictures it was hard. I'll have to get them on DVD.