High Draw definition

[lewkowski]

At the Commonwealth Archery Championships there were a number of archers that were warned for high drawing of their bow with the worst case being that 2 competitors were stopped from competing any further in the event (forced to withdraw).

Many of them and their coaches claimed that they were never pulled up in the past and that they believed they were shooting within the FITA rules.

At this years Nationals I was given an informal warning that I may have been close to breaching this rule and since then I have lessened the angle during my draw process. At the time I was not given an objective test that I could use to apply to my change in draw technique.

The rule in question is 7.7.7 (and it is repeated in various other places) throughout the rule book.
"When drawing back the string of his or her bow an athlete must not use any technique which, in the opinion of the Judges, could allow the arrow, if accidentally released, fly beyond a safety zone or safety arrangements (overshoot area, net, wall etc.). If an athlete persists in using such a technique, he or she will, in the interest of safety, be asked by the Chairperson of the Judges Commission and/or the Director of Shooting to stop shooting immediately and to leave the field."

I had a chance to discuss this with the English Judge at the tournament. He said that in England they have applied a more objective way of deciding if an archer is breaking this rule:
If the top of the archers drawing hand goes below the bottom of the bow hand during the draw (when viewed parallel to the horizontal), then the archer may be in breach of this rule.
Here is a simple picture:
http://www.ncode.com.au/images/Drawing_High_Picture_2.png

Any comments, experiences or better definitions for people to follow?

[Jean Lafitte]

How were the archer's drawing? I have a pretty high wind-up pre-draw to set my shoulders, but when I actually start drawing the bow the aperture is only just above the target. But if they were pointing their bows towards the sky like I've seen some overbowed compounders do, then yeah.

[James Park]

That definition would still have the arrow go quite a long way. Hence, I would perhaps halve the angle. It is, however, pretty easy to test the way you have specified it.

[gt]

The intent of this rule was to prevent "sky drawing" of COMPOUND bows. Reason being, compound shooters do not have 100% reliable control of the bowstring, due to the use of a mechanical release.

I don't believe the purpose of the rule was ever intended as applicable to recurves.

[Marcus]

As a note I was quite disgusted that in the PSE Holding Steady video they use some guy who is drawing down to the bottom of his ribcage. Bad example to use for an instructional video.

[recurve boy]

The intent of this rule was to prevent "sky drawing" of COMPOUND bows. Reason being, compound shooters do not have 100% reliable control of the bowstring, due to the use of a mechanical release.

I don't believe the purpose of the rule was ever intended as applicable to recurves.

Surely it must apply to recurve as well. I've had instances where I just brain fart during setup.

[James Park]

I think it needs to apply to recurve. When the clicker clkicks, many recurvers will shoot automatically. If they happen to be aiming in the air at that time there is still a problem.

[Archangel]

I think it needs to apply to recurve. When the clicker clkicks, many recurvers will shoot automatically. If they happen to be aiming in the air at that time there is still a problem.
Or their fingers may just slip - say it's raining and their tab's a bit slippery, and they get a bit tired and relax them a bit...

[Archangel]

At this years Nationals I was given an informal warning that I may have been close to breaching this rule and since then I have lessened the angle during my draw process. At the time I was not given an objective test that I could use to apply to my change in draw technique.
Lucky none of my team were making a fuss about it then ;-)

[Ali Bateman]

Heres a pic i got of the disqualified Compound lady from Malaysia that i took during the practice day in India. I thought i'd get it on camera to show my dad back home (who is a Judge here in NZ). Its definitely pretty shocking! and clearly breaks the rule that Chris illustrated above.
Im suprised it took so long for anyone to bring it to the judges attention

(hope the pic works, never posted an image before)

[Marcus]

not only is that dangerous to the public but is doing her damage, and also limiting what poundage she can shoot.

[puddin]

that isnt the best place for a compound to be aiming while drawing.
she must be pulling way to higher poundage.

nice pic ali.
just a tip for next time. make it smaller.

[Jay.G]

Heres a pic i got of the disqualified Compound lady from Malaysia that i took during the practice day in India. I thought i'd get it on camera to show my dad back home (who is a Judge here in NZ). Its definitely pretty shocking! and clearly breaks the rule that Chris illustrated above.
Im suprised it took so long for anyone to bring it to the judges attention

(hope the pic works, never posted an image before)


Lol it looks like his talking to someone...

[Archangel]

just a tip for next time. make it smaller.
Seems okay to me ;-)

Her form definately wasn't though...

[James Park]

Yes, if she touched her trigger it would go a very long way indeed. Very dangerous and quite right to stop her shooting.

[dbjac]

Thats the first time i've seen the malaysian girl, she was disqualified before i even knew what was going on. That is ridiculous! :o

[James Park]

Jeff Button, World Field Championships, 1996. Jeff shot excellently and won the event. However: not safe.

[Archangel]

Jeff Button, World Field Championships, 1996. Jeff shot excellently and won the event. Howver: not safe.
Still, it's probably fair to say that he shot excellently in spite of his draw rather than because of it.

[Progen]

There are a few other compounders in my state who draw like that. Unfortunately for us / them, there are no compound coaches around here so everyone's self taught or taught by others who've been shooting longer. There's this indoor range where you can see holes in the false ceiling from precisely that kind of draw.

Perhaps Malaysia should start submitting entrants for flight archery. :D

[lewkowski]

That definition would still have the arrow go quite a long way. Hence, I would perhaps halve the angle. It is, however, pretty easy to test the way you have specified it.

For a recurve the arrow probably wouldn't go past the the safety zone (50m past last target), for a compound it may be borderline. It will also depends upon the size of the archers hands but it is a general guide.

The guideline is very easy to understand and apply. It is also easy for a judge or DOS to quickly asertain if a dangerous draw is potentially being performed. We also got to remember that the FITA rule 7.7.7. covers *any* act during the draw process that may be considered dangerous, including not having the arrow on the rest properly, having thumb/fingers too close to trigger mechanisms and possibly not hooking string fingers deeply enough for recurve (although I haven't heard of this one :) ).

[Marcus]

For a recurve the arrow probably wouldn't go past the the safety zone (50m past last target), for a compound it may be borderline. It will also depends upon the size of the archers hands but it is a general guide.

I think you would be suprized. I've shot a longbow 300m and Jim has done 400m. I could easily see a recurve with an X10 doing 300m at those angles.

[Progen]

Didn't know that James and Marcus were into flight archery. :D

Ok, with regards to recurve, there are LOTS of top level archers out there who do not utilize a high draw and these include just about all (as far as those that I have videos of) the record holders so I dare say it's proven that a high draw is unnecessary and perhaps outdated technique.

[James Park]

A fast compound will have an angle of elevation of about 4 degrees for 90M. For a fast recurve it will be about 6 degrees.
The angle suggested by the UK gives around 8 to 10 degrees. Hence, the distances will be quite long.

[lewkowski]

I think you would be suprized. I've shot a longbow 300m and Jim has done 400m. I could easily see a recurve with an X10 doing 300m at those angles.

I guess I meant that if you stuck to the guideline of having the top of your draw hand no lower than the bottom of your bow hand for a recurve it would be hard to shoot over 140m. And you are right most people would be surprised at just how far an arrow would go.

We also got to recognise that with a recurve if you are only at half draw then you will probably only have half (or less) the peak bow weight going into the arrow in the event of a miss fire (for my bow at half draw length, I would barely reach the 90m even with a 20 degree angle). With a compound if you miss fire at half draw then you are probably at peak bow weight which means that all the energy will be going into the arrow, a much more dangerous situation.

[Marcus]

With a compound if you miss fire at half draw then you are probably at peak bow weight which means that all the energy will be going into the arrow, a much more dangerous situation.
no you also are only half stored in energy at half draw, in fact depending on the bow you may not even be that much.
Regardless of bow type it is not a wise thing to do.

[Archangel]

For a recurve the arrow probably wouldn't go past the the safety zone (50m past last target)
Not that we had even close to 50m in India, but that's probably not as worrying as the fact that the "barrier" behind the target wasn't going to stop any arrows that hit it :-)

[Archangel]

no you also are only half stored in energy at half draw, in fact depending on the bow you may not even be that much.
Regardless of bow type it is not a wise thing to do.
A compound might be half or so, a recurve would probably be more like a quarter (maybe a bit more with modern limbs). Given that the total energy of the compound is also higher, it's quite the difference.
But still, the rule should apply to both bow types equally.

[James Park]

I cannot think of any good reasons to have a draw where either your bowhand is too high or your string hand is too low, compound or recurve.

[GrahamT]

I recall the situation a few years ago when for the heck of it we had a go at maximum distance.
With a well below max poundage compound bow on the mudflats at mangere we were shooting OVER 500m.

A top weight recurve would be not too far away

That safety factor is just blown away

Bluddy dangerous in my opinion

GT

[GrahamT]

Mind you that was in the era when a certain archangel did not even have down let alone feathers so even if he was low flying he would have been quite safe

Better stop now - showing my age!

[dbjac]

Not that we had even close to 50m in India, but that's probably not as worrying as the fact that the "barrier" behind the target wasn't going to stop any arrows that hit it :-)

But that was safe, because once you shot through the 'barrier', the arrow wouldnt go far before being stopped by one of those dogs that seemed to enjoy walking across the range during shooting.

[The One]

But that was safe, because once you shot through the 'barrier', the arrow wouldnt go far before being stopped by one of those dogs that seemed to enjoy walking across the range during shooting.

Quite novel, really - let's use white cotton sheets as a backstop!!! :eek:

[hoyt for life 2]

But that was safe, because once you shot through the 'barrier', the arrow wouldnt go far before being stopped by one of those dogs that seemed to enjoy walking across the range during shooting.
but those dogs were about as thin as the sheets, probubly wouldn't have stoped the arrow.

[alexvpaq]

My friend (a dude with a compound :P) told me that one compounder during an Indoor 3D crushed a neon light that way - Draw whoops! trigger! hopefully he wasn't from our town:P :rofl:

[Brocky]

Didn't know that James and Marcus were into flight archery. :D

Ok, with regards to recurve, there are LOTS of top level archers out there who do not utilize a high draw and these include just about all (as far as those that I have videos of) the record holders so I dare say it's proven that a high draw is unnecessary and perhaps outdated technique.

Well being the type of bloke you appear to be , one would have believed that you would have shared that information with fellow country man/women before they attended such events.

[Brocky]

There are a few other compounders in my state who draw like that. Unfortunately for us / them, there are no compound coaches around here so everyone's self taught or taught by others who've been shooting longer. There's this indoor range where you can see holes in the false ceiling from precisely that kind of draw.

Perhaps Malaysia should start submitting entrants for flight archery. :D

I would have believed that you would have been the head coach.

[Progen]

Anything else, birdie man? ;)

Looks like my birthday wish for you to grow up didn't come true. :sad:

[Brocky]

Progen you twit :silly: you have to blow out all the candles for that to happen, not eat them :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Progen]

Progen you twit :silly: you have to blow out all the candles for that to happen, not eat them :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.........................

Changed my mind. You can have the sandpit to yourself.