Estimating unmarked distances

[James Park]

Estimating unmarked distances is a key aspect of scoring well at unmarked field distances (and 3D). How do you all do it?

[Kuru]

I got target face id drummed into me, ie X sized target face in going to be between 40-60 meters. So now you have a 20 metre gap to work out, I've always tried to shoot second in field so that I can guage what other people shoot, by that I mean if 2 archers shoot first and their arrows go low It's a fair bet their estimate was say 5-10 meters out, so that brings the distance down to roughly 10 meters. Some people say they can look thru their scope and tell the distance by lining things up but there is to much variables in that idea for me

[mike]

I just do it the way you taught me Jim -- using the limb tip as a refference (actually I have to use the broad section of the idle wheel near the axle as the limb tips are too rounded to be reliable)

After a while and with practise I found this method very accurate. Although I would need to go back out there and do a 'refresher' on the exact readings that I get before I shot a comp.

I prefer this method to the framing method using the scope because off my scope's poor sight picture and if there is water all over the scope in the rain it makes it very hard carry out the estimation.

[Bruce]

A real easy way to stop the need for gauging in your field round is to make it a marked round of odd distances as IFAA hunters is . you need to shoot more walk ups and odd distances , field should be a test of how well you shoot not how well you can gauge . make it even , mark both rounds let the best archer win , not the one with the best way of cheating !!!!!!

With 3 d it is not as critical . with most 3D bows you can be out by 5 metres and because the bull is so big (relative) you will still score in the A zone.

[Marcus]

I use to shoot heaps of unmarked Fita but havn't in a long long time. However when I did I used 3 methods.

When I last shot it gauging was illegal. So I knew what the mins and maxes were for all the pegs on every face. For example if the senior min was 20m and the junior peg's max was 20 and the pegs were together....well you work that one out.

I would get a rough guage from that, I would then count using odjects. 3m to that rock, another 5 to the tree etc etc. That got me within about 5m.

I'ld set my site, draw and use my ring to guage (did i say guage, I meant reference) against the face and aim higher or lower.

I rarely missed much outside the 4 or 5 with my first arrow. (that was on the ugly grey field faces) It also helped that my PSE Fire Flight and Hoyt Super Slams were speed bows of their time.

Before that I have also used the standing there going "eerrrrr....45m?" method (which didn't work well) and the limb tip method (which works well)

For ABA I have only shot it a few times but used the peg and stage guessing system I mentioned above to shoot a 396 out of 400 (2 outside the centre)

IMO You are best of using as many methods as possible.

[mike]

If you look at the rules they differ a little between AA and FITA and basically the FITA ones essentially allow you to estimate or guage using standard equipment attached to your bow (nothing not essential to shooting can be added - no extra bits of string, markings etc but you can use limb tips etc...). Note that the biggest obstacle you'll come up against here is time wasting -- FITA have said this is how they will go after people who are guaging.

Even if its illegal, people will do it and you are crazy to enter a comp without some sort of method. If a judge questions you, say nothing -- that way there would have to be an appeal for the matter to go further.
Simple as that.

[Marcus]

8 years ago when I was shooting alot of unmarked FITA it was illegal by FITA and AA. The stopped making it illegal because the top shooters still did it. They couldn't stop it. Kirk Etheridge has a good story about this in his book.

I think it would be a shame if the unmarked got removed. Yes if you guage you may as well be shooting marked, but many don't do it, and it is a skill on it's own.

[mike]

Agree totally, guaging distance in unmarked is part of the skill, and it is a good skills test.

I hate when people say that estimating or guaging distance is "cheating". What I want to know is, how do those people shoot unmarked?? what, do they just walk up to the peg, have a guess and then start shooting??

You would not find a good unmarked shooter anywhere in the world in any comp, AA, FITA, ABA, IFAA, ASA, IBO etc who does not do SOMETHING to establish the distance between himself and the target. It is the fundament piece of information needed for an archer to hit a target accurately. And no archer who was really interested in shooting a good score would accept some sort of guesswork policy.

Of course you can't have additional devices, thats fair enough, but if it is standard target archery equipment then that is fine, just don't waste time with elaborate routines.

If you are going to shoot unmarked, then it is a primary skill to develop.

[James Park]

At the 2002 Nationals the top four scores in the unmarked round were:
Clint: 360
Bryce: 356
Leigh: 355
Jim: 352
Clint, Leigh and I all used the scope ring.
Bryce used a combination of the scope ring and the end of the limb tip.
Bear in mind that for the scores that Clint, Bryce and Leigh obtained, they would have had to be within about 1 Metre of the correct distance at all times, and especially so at the longer distances where the guaging is more difficult.
I lost two points where I think I estimated the distance incorrectly by 2 Metres, the rest of the points I lost simply through not shooting them well enough (including a dumb one where at 51 Metres I shot my first two in the X and then shot a 4 - got the distance spot on, but shot one poorly).
The Nationals unmarked course had the distances generally towards the longer permitted ranges - there was really only one target where the distance was near the minimum (40cm face at 17 Metres), and for my group at least all four of us got 3 in the X.

[mike]

Great additions to Accurate Sights Jim, well done!

I'm looking forward to putting it to the test at the National Selection Trial (of course I wouldn't dream of guaging distances at such an event though :D )

What do you do in heavy rain???? I find that this can reduce the sight picture to a fuzzy blur in which I am placing the circle around a blur of gold to aim -- this still tends to be very accurate though. However, it makes the scope guaging method very hard and you would waste a lot of time cleaning the scope. Do you then switch to limb tip method?

[James Park]

I switch to using the limb tip in heavy rain (or if the target is very dark and I cannot see it well enough through the scope.

[2Dogs]

Ok so what's the limb tip method.

when I last shot a compound in Field we gauged with the scope, that was in 94-95. then they changed the rules so you couldn't move your sight after coming to full draw.

Now gauging is back on again.

jackson fear used to use the limb tip method, but he never explained it well enough for me to understand what the hell he was talking about.

Something about placing the bottom wheel on your knee and extending your bowarm and gapping with the wheel/limb tip.

Can any of you explain to me exactly how you do it.

[StevenB]

For FITA field I carry a card that has the target faces and then the distances for blue ,white and red pegs. I then use a bit of gauging(where the circle comes to on the target). And then the archers on the target ,as long as they are not in my divison or are my friends we have a quick brainstorming on the distance before we shoot it(I know this one is frowned apon by judges :wink: ). I also stand about 5 meters from the peg and then fold that 5 meters down to the target(I hope someone understands what I just said). :roll:

P.S. part of the dificulty in shooting unmarked is gauging. It is timed associations relised this and allow it in all forms of unmarked events.(Thought this does not mean allowing people to use a rangefinder). It is a skill that all good unmarked archers tearn. And if you think it is cheating next time you shoot an unmarked course close your eyes as you shoot or shot in the dark that way you wont be able to guess the distance which is still a form of gauging as there is no way you just go up there and say its 10mts when it is clearly a lot futher than that. :x Well time to get of the soap box :)

[2Dogs]

Steven,

You'd want to be careful discussing the distances with your friends target mates. That's totally ilegal.

If the Judges or another archer overheard you doing this up here, it would be instant disqualification.

Actually I think FITA changed the rules on taking a card around with you with the target sizes distances etc. I think that's banned too. Maybe one of the other guys will know.

I understand what you mean about folding, I think it is a technique that we all try.

I'd prefer to see the unmarked dissappear all together.

[Marcus]

Paul
Limb tip guaging is where you pick a spot on your leg to rest your bow (must be the same everytime) and extend your bow arm so you can line the target up with the top limb tip.
You then place say the left edge on the face and work out how much of the top limb the face takes up at any distance. So if the face it out to the middle of the cam it equals X distance.

[StevenB]

Yes I know what I'm doing might be illegal, but as others have said the only reason that guaging is legal is because FITA realised that they could not stop it.

And as for the confering about the distance 1) coming from a junior background we used to do it all the time on the field courses at all levels (including national) and 2)I was under the impression from what I have been told from judges that it is frowned upon because there is nothing to stop another competitor from giving you wrong info. But it is like the internet ,don't believe everything you read.

But I could be wrong ,the last time I shot field was back in 1999 at my last junior nationals. 8)

[StevenB]

Forgot to add. There is no F@#KING way you can get rid of unmarked it. :evil:









I think I'm having a bad day! :o

[2Dogs]

Steven,

I'm amazed the Judges have told you they frown upon it, and that you were allowed to do it at a Junior Nationals level.

Myself as a former Junior Nationals competitor had it drummed into us from the beginning that if you were caught discussing the distances with another competitor, than you were out..DQ'd

Maybe the fules for FITA Field have changed.

Actually I haven't competed in a field tournament were my target companions have discussed the unmarked distance at all.

Come to think of it, I wonder if it is a Rule or if it was etiquette that we weren't discussing the distance.

Maybe some of you guys know the answer....I'll go read my rule book :wink:

[2Dogs]

hmmm getting rid of unmarked.

I think your in for a rude shock next year or when the next FITA congress is.

From what I'm told it's going to go. The numbers in FITA are stacked against it. :roll:

[Marcus]

At a National level we never discussed distance when I shot it. However at a state level I would sometimes discuss it with only certain shooters. It wasn't in a let's see if we can win it situation but rather just general conversation. We knew enough not to talk about it when judges were around. ;)
If I tell someone it's 40m and it is 40m it's not cheating. If I tell someone it's 35m and it's 40m then it's also not cheating.

End of the day noone can cry foul if someone else tells you the wrong distance.

[StevenB]

I just did ,it doesn't say anything about discussing the distance. 11.4.2 1) b) Rangefinders or any other means of estimating distances or angles that are not covered by the current rules regarding competitors' equipment.

[StevenB]

That is from the AA rule book.

[2Dogs]

Marcus,

I've never shot with any groups that discussed the distances before we shot the target. We often discussed the distance after the Target.

Actually I've never shot any field be it ABA, AA, or 3DAAA where anyone discussed the distances.

Maybe it was because the groups I shot in were always competing very closely with each other.

I did shoot in a group when I was younger, where a guy was talking about the distances and he was reported to the judges. He was DQ'd

I just assumed that was the rule.......which I think it is. 8)

[James Park]

I am certain you are not permitted to discuss the distances with others.
I am also certain that you are not permitted to carry any documentation with you other than the rules of shooting and your normal sight markings.
In the last three World Field Championships I very blatently gauged targets (using several methods including the bow tip and the sight ring) while standing within a Metre of judges, and was not once told I could not do it. It would have been blatently obvious to the judges that I was gauging, as was everyone. I also blatently measured the slope of the hills in front of judges. I think the key point is never to say that you are gauging.
I would also comment that if the archers at those championships did not gauge and measure angle there would be no way they would get the scores that they (and I) did. Similarly, the scores at the Nationals last month would be impossible without accurate gauging, but I cannot recall a single person actually saying that they were gauging.

[2Dogs]

Found it

Rule 9.4.5 of the FITA rule book - chapter 9 Field Archery

No competitor may relate the target distances to anybody on unmarked courses during the tournament

I think that explains it very clearly

[StevenB]

Yes the card thing is ilegal according to the rules.

Also just found this on the FITA website http://www.archery.org/field_archery/field_publications/Howtomeasure.PDF

[StevenB]

Also this from the fita site on carry the tabels indicating the distsnces for the different divisions ,
[quote]5. Q What is to be understood by the word

[mike]

someone should send this website to any judges planning on judging at the upcoming trial so that we are all clear as to the rules on guaging:

http://www.archery.org/field_archery/field_publications/f_publications.html

Jim -- you will be interested to note that they require you to have an arrow loaded.

[2Dogs]

Yeah I read that too

So you should be right to carry your card with the targets and their distances as it's really just a reproduction of the rule book.

[2Dogs]

Also interesting read that you cannot come to draw and let down repeatedly.

once or at the max twice is acceptable.

I think I will have to call the judges on Adam Richards for the State Field soon :wink:

He comes up and down about 4 bloody times..........which means he most likely go over the time limit to.

[StevenB]

Just to be safe I will ask a judge at the next field if I am allowed to carry it with me.

[mike]

Steven, I would not ask a judge at your next tournament because there is a very real possibility that they will not know the correct answer and so will give you an answer based upon their suspicion as to what the rules are!!!


:P

[StevenB]

I'll just carry the rule book with me then. :) If a judge complains I'll ask why I can't carry the rule book with me.

[Marcus]

I'll just carry the rule book with me then. :) If a judge complains I'll ask why I can't carry the rule book with me.

I think this is the best idea. Can you make your own notes in a rule book?

[Eberbachl]

mmm interesting thread, I don't know how I missed it...

Yes, carrying the rule book would seem to be the answer....how could that possibly be illegal, although notes in it could be an issue.

In ABA the rule goes (from meory) "that sighted shooters shal not discuss distances to targets within earshot of barebow shooters........, sighted shooters may also carry around "cheat sheets" but barebow shooters cant.

Estimating the distance to a target is obviously very important in any unmarked field event, and a number of methods have already been mentioned.

Guaging, or relating the size of your scope ring or limb tip etc to the size of a known target is a very efficient method of detirmining the distance to a target, but is reliant on knowing the dimensions of each individual target face. I don't think it's really relevant if it's legal or illegal for that matter either, as Jim has said....anyone shooting 350's-360's for unmarked field is judging the distance very well using an efficient and reliable system.

I think the real difficulty is when you are presented with an assymetrical, target such as a 3D target, or paper animal face, and do not know the targets physical dimensions.

Two methods which can be used here are judging the "lay of the land" usning rocks, trees etc in five or ten meter increments and counting the distances, and being aware of the allowable distances for junior pegs etc and using the placement of said pegs in relation to the adult pegs to make an informed decision.

These two methods can work quite well in ideal circumstances, and I've shot plenty of 20's using them..........the problem is of course, ideal circumstances rarely present themselves on a field course and when shooting across gullies and targets with alot of "dead ground" etc...these methods alone are simply not accurate enough to drill the target every time.

Some great 3D scores are shot by Australia's top field archers, and of course in the US 3D is shot very well also.

The question is what sorts of systems do the best 3D guys use to overcome the difficulties associated with such a large array of different size/shape targets???

[2Dogs]

One of the former top 3DAAA archers used his pins to gauge the target.

Most of the animal targets have similar distances in the Girth (belly to back).

He worked out a system using his 5 pins (he was more accurate with that then a scope) where he would put his bottom pin on the belly and see what pin came close to the top of the back for that particular target.

Took a lot of practice on the different targets.......but he did it, and shot very well.

Brad Raffin was his name, he's not shooting anymore.

3DAAA ending up disqualifying him i believe under their poor sportsmanship rule. Brad was honest and told people what he did and how to do it, and he was obviously gauging (those of us that do it knew)as he came up once, then down again, then shot.

However I Still think it stinks that he was DQ'd because look at FITA.........how the hell can anyone tell you, you are gauging unless you admit it. Unless they have ESP they can't..........PURE AND SIMPLE.

I think some people in power in 3DAAA just got jealous :wink:

[OldDog]

He may be back soon Paul, BTW did I hear you say those of us who do it, by us are you telling me that you are using this method. :wink:

[Eberbachl]

Hey thanks for that info Paul,

It seems a bit unfair that someone would be DQ'd for guaging. It's only the honest onest (that admit to it) that suffer if this is the case.

Personally I don't beleive that guaging a target is unsportsmanlike. Part of the magic of unmarked field is determining the target distance, so archers should use any method they can come up with to do that in a competitive and efficient manner. I of course object to people using rangefinders etc etc etc ...... but relating a part of your bow to the target and finding the distance that way takes alot of skill and practice, and should not be considerd "cheating". It's only those people willing to put in the practice that will win.

Isn't that the way it should be???

[2Dogs]

I agree Luke, if he's willing to spend the time and effort to work out the system good luck to him.

Brad was beating too many people and they didn't like it.

AND YES Noel I guage..........as you can tell by how good I shoot 3DAAA.....just look at all those top tens I've made....and all those tournaments I've won. :wink:

For me it's the techniques Luke described, 10 to there...+5 to there....plus 20 to there.......fire........DIRT.....**** :lol:

[OldDog]

Paul, are you recieving my messages

[2Dogs]

yep sending now

[Marcus]

For me it's the techniques Luke described, 10 to there...+5 to there....plus 20 to there.......fire........DIRT.....****

Yep, sounds like my 3D round I shot today.

Worst part is I guaged a pig thinking it was a Mckensie and it was a Austyle target. Went 10 metres short!