Which bow...

[Liam]

Upgrading my bow.

I'm conflicted.

Looking at

Either the guardian or the equaliser

Not really sure what to go for, I've only got a midget draw length.

Also an outside chance for an Iron Mace or Elites short draw bow.

(as a side note, how much is an 05 allegiance worth?)

[Marcus]

I'ld go the guardian, more room to grow and a sweet bow.
Happy to trade the Allegiance back for you.

[Liam]

I'ld go the guardian, more room to grow and a sweet bow.
Happy to trade the Allegiance back for you.

Over the last year...

My draw length has shrunk.

(Well, not entirely sure, need to test this bow shoulder business first.)

How does the equalisers draw length change?

[Marcus]

Using modules, but goes up to 27" only.
WHat's your draw length at the moment?

[Liam]

Using modules, but goes up to 27" only.
WHat's your draw length at the moment?

26.5, maybe a little longer. I need to bring my anchor forward (yay for today.) but I might be able to achieve this by lowering my bow shoulder properly (yay for yesterday).

[Marcus]

yes, a key point is that often it is not shortening the draw that does it, it can often be a slight change of head position. When Jim changed his he did not touch his draw length.

[Liam]

yes, a key point is that often it is not shortening the draw that does it, it can often be a slight change of head position. When Jim changed his he did not touch his draw length.

yeah. I already new that playing around with my head position did bring the string off my nose, and only had a tiny bit of contact on my chin. So I think if perhaps I keep my head in a better position (and check that my peep is in a decent spot), and then lower my shoulder, it should/might bring the string/anchor into the proper spot.

So my draw length is either 26.5" or a little bit shorter. and I haven't increased it for 2 years or so. (and I've grown a lot)

leaning towards guardian because of colour/coolness factor. It's just as fast as my allegiance anyway.

[Purple Hats]

yeah. I already new that playing around with my head position did bring the string off my nose, and only had a tiny bit of contact on my chin. So I think if perhaps I keep my head in a better position (and check that my peep is in a decent spot), and then lower my shoulder, it should/might bring the string/anchor into the proper spot.

So my draw length is either 26.5" or a little bit shorter. and I haven't increased it for 2 years or so. (and I've grown a lot)

leaning towards guardian because of colour/coolness factor. It's just as fast as my allegiance anyway.

If you're stuffing with your drawlength, and you are only borderline for the Equaliser, dont get it. Guardian is so cool anyway :p

[DanceswithDingoes]

Using modules, but goes up to 27" only.
WHat's your draw length at the moment?
27.5" in 2007...... I would wait for the commander if shooting spots is your game.

[Marcus]

27.5" in 2007...... I would wait for the commander if shooting spots is your game.
You seem overly insistant that the Guardian is no good for spots DWD. What is your bias against 34" target bows? Or is it because the US 'pros' don't use them? :rolleyes:

[DanceswithDingoes]

Apart from Sten, James, Dan Murphy and Erika name another top archer that shoots a 34" bow? Now tell me, that those that do, could not shoot as well if not better, if they used a 37" bow?

[dbjac]

Apart from Sten, James, Dan Murphy and Erika name another top archer that shoots a 34" bow? Now tell me, that those that do, could not shoot as well if not better, if they used a 37" bow?
How about you first tell us that we would shoot better with a longer bow? Now prove it.

Craig Tyson 1371 with a 32.
Me, 1346 almost a year ago, could have done a lot better before my form slump after India (couple of months ago) just never shot the FITAs then. 34"
Marcus, 1371 34"

Do i keep going?

EDIT: Oh yeh, how about Steve Clifton. 1391 with a 34". AND HE BEAT CLINT AT OUR NATIONALS.

[Eberbachl]

I seem to recall Jim shooting some pretty crazy scores with his very short PSE Xcellerator (sp) too ;) His current AR is hardly long ATA either :)

Seriously, I do think that the long ATA must be more forgiving thing is a thing of the past.

As Jim has explained before, with bows that require timing such as dual cam bows and hybrid cam bows, the axle to axle length is indeed important.

If you go too short on one of these bows, any timing issues will have a major impact in your groups.

I haven't seen any evidence that single cam bows or binary cam bows which don't have any timing issues need to be long ata bows though. Having shot my 34" Allegiance very well, and my Old Glory at 37" ata, and my Constitution at a whopping 40" ata, I don't see any difference in score from axle to axle length.

I'm certainly scoring alot higher with these bows with my 42"+ Hoyts of a few years ago. ;)

The only thing I would consider different enough to warrant a second thought would be the brace height of these bows. I do think brace height considerations have some merit, but having said that at my draw length (28") I'm pretty happy with anything over 7".

As for the Guardian and Commander...the brace height is only 3/8" different - hardly worth worrying about! Especially considering the Guardian has 11fps extra speed. I know, I know...speed isn't everything. Actually, it's only a small component of what makes a good bow, but in this case I don't see any accuracy trade-offs, and the extra speed will help the spot shooter through reduced wind drift.

Of the Guardian and Commander, I'd take the Guardian. I've shot it, and it feels excellent. I'd be happy to have it as a spot bow....in fact if I find some cash I might do just that :D Not that I think that the Commander is a bad bow. On the contrary I'd be happy to shoot one. Just that I think the Guardian offers that little bit more.

[Marcus]

James Park: 1371 with a AR34 and a 345 at 90m with it
Craig Tyson: 1371 with a Browning Illusion, 32"
Peter Cave: 1350+ with a Browning Illusion
Marcel Vestegen: 1365 with a PSE Stingray?
Bryce Lee: 1358 with a PSE Scorpion
Leigh Cornish: 350+ fields with Bowtech Allegiance
Derek Jacobs: 1346 and 324 at 90m with Bowtech Allegiance
Alan Williamson: 1355 with Bowtech Allegiance
John Aiello: 1336 and 329 at 90m with Mathews LX
David Anear: 1343 with Bowtech Allegiance
Luke Eberbach: 355 FITA Field with Bowtech Allegiance
Nicole Pless: Bowtech Patriot
Stephen Clifton: 1392 with Bowtech Allegiance and 2006 Aust Nationals Target champ
Sten Nigol: 1373 Short FITA with AR34 and 1340 Mens with Bowtech Allegiance. Shot a 300 23x today.
Myself: 1371 in practise and 324 at 90m with Bowtech Allegiance
Erika Anear: Bowtech Allegiance
Chris White: World 70m record holder with Mathews Switchback
To name a few.

Would they have shot higer with a longer bow? Likely not. Most of these people have shot longer bows and their scores improved with the shorter. Derek use to shoot a Hoyt Ultratec and went from 1280's to 1346 with the Allegiance.
Sten went from the AR34 to a UltraElite XT3000 and his scores dropped. He picked up the Allegiance and a few days later shot 1339 and 1340 at teh Aust Day shoot.
James Park knows his gear well enough to know what costs him points.

So come on DWD, come up with some actual reasoning that longer is better if you want to recommend longer bows over shorter ones.

[Erika]

Apart from Sten, James, Dan Murphy and Erika name another top archer that shoots a 34" bow? Now tell me, that those that do, could not shoot as well if not better, if they used a 37" bow?

I shot a Hoyt Ultratec in 2002 that was really long. All I got out of it was bruised ribs cos the bottom cam kept hitting my ribs on the follow through.

I shot okay with it, but I've shot better with substantially shorter bows. I'm inclined to think that weight has a lot to do with it if nothing else (it was really heavy).

My recurves have been the same, I've shot a lot better with 66" versus 68".... no idea if it's for the same reasons though.

[Liam]

I don't get it, I asked for advice on two different bows, with a vague maybe on another 2, yet I get reccomended a completely different bow that's somewhat unsuitable? Yay!

Long ATA bows offer what to poor little me with a 26.5" DL besides being slow?

[DanceswithDingoes]

You asked I answered....the nature of a forum I believe. :rolleyes:

[Liam]

You asked I answered....the nature of a forum I believe. :rolleyes:

'What's more healthy, apples or oranges?'
'Grapes'

:D

yayyay.

BACK ON TOPIC:

I think I'll go for the guardian in the vain hope that my arms will grow and I will be a normal boy!

[Enlightened One]

... whatever works for you I guess. I personally rather long ATA bows but i dont think one can be defined as better than the other :lol:

By the way, go the guardian ITS HOT!!!!

[Kite]

You seem overly insistant that the Guardian is no good for spots DWD. What is your bias against 34" target bows? Or is it because the US 'pros' don't use them? :rolleyes:

US “pro's” use the bows the manufactures want them to use.:o

Shorter ATA bows are usually billed as hunting / 3D bows.
If you use the same bow for spots, then manufactures sell 1 less bow to each person that shoots all disciplines.

I shoot better with my lighter 33" ATA Switchback then I was with my heavier 37" ATA Ultratec. Scores at the start of shooting are much the same but I maintain higher scores as the day progresses with the Switchback due to less bow arm fatigue.

[Marcus]

No that's not true Kite. My wife has a Bowtech deal and they are more than happy for her to shoot an Allegiance (and this year an Equalizer and a Guardian). She also has a Hoyt contract (recurve) and the compound aspect does not dictate bow model at all. Any of their bows are fine. She could shoot a n Eclipse with Epic limbs or a Trykon Jr if she wanted to.

The bow companies are not too stressed about the US target bow market, they don't make money off it. It's good publicity though to sell more hunting bows.

[Kite]

No that's not true Kite. My wife has a Bowtech deal and they are more than happy for her to shoot an Allegiance (and this year an Equalizer and a Guardian). She also has a Hoyt contract (recurve) and the compound aspect does not dictate bow model at all. Any of their bows are fine. She could shoot a n Eclipse with Epic limbs or a Trykon Jr if she wanted to.

The bow companies are not too stressed about the US target bow market, they don't make money off it. It's good publicity though to sell more hunting bows.


Yep... I understand and acknowledge that.

What I mean (albeit cynically put:rolleyes: ) is that I think the culture for the US "pro's" see a lot (not all) shooting longer ATA bows mainly because they are billed as the Manufactures "Target Bows".

I do think this is something that will change in the near future with such feats as Chris Whites 70 meter SB record become more commonplace.

[Marcus]

Here is what I think happened
Bill Old Pro was shooting away winning with his 48" compound bow.
John New Pro says "hey there Bill, why don't you use these new fangled 45" bows?"
"Well John" says Bill "them things just don't work as well as my 48" bow".
"Why Bill? They look OK"
Bill, not keen to look ignorant in front of this youngen' says "well...that's because it's not as stable as my 48" bow. It's not as forgiving"
John thinks and then says "well that's true, they teach that with recurves don't they?". However John forgot that he isn't shooting fingers so the rules don't apply.

Years later John is now one of the big guns and is shootng a 46" bow. It's the longest that the company he shoots for makes so he thinks nothing of old Bill's recommendations. AFterall, his scores are better than Bills.
A new young Pro called Tom says to him. "hey John. I'm thinking of trying this 41" bow by your company. Should I?"
"Well" scoffs John. "I wouldn't. That's far too short. It won't be as stable and as forgiving as my 46" bow.".
Tom, not wanting to risk his pro career on something different and remembering says "well that's true, I read that in a book by a guy called Bill Old Pro who mentioned how recurve archers use longer bows too"

Now it's modern day, Tom is doing well on the circuit with his 41" bow and completely forgets his original rejection of such a length.
A new pro named Frank says to him.
"hey Tom. What do you think of this new 34" bow? It shoots well, should I compete with it?"
"No way" says Tom "that will be far too unforgiving and not as stable as my 41" bow."
"Oh.." says Frank. "well that's true, I read that in a book by a guy called Bill Old Pro who mentioned how recurve archers use longer bows too".

And so on and so on.

Any coincidence to names of archers living is not intentional

[Kite]

Oh so true.

Perception is reality...

Maybe one day (several generations of pro's from now) we will all be talking about the new fangled 25" ATA bow that aint suitable for spots

[shannonhearse]

Here is what I think happened
Bill Old Pro was shooting away winning with his 48" compound bow.
John New Pro says "hey there Bill, why don't you use these new fangled 45" bows?"
"Well John" says Bill "them things just don't work as well as my 48" bow".
"Why Bill? They look OK"
Bill, not keen to look ignorant in front of this youngen' says "well...that's because it's not as stable as my 48" bow. It's not as forgiving"
John thinks and then says "well that's true, they teach that with recurves don't they?". However John forgot that he isn't shooting fingers so the rules don't apply.

Years later John is now one of the big guns and is shootng a 46" bow. It's the longest that the company he shoots for makes so he thinks nothing of old Bill's recommendations. AFterall, his scores are better than Bills.
A new young Pro called Tom says to him. "hey John. I'm thinking of trying this 41" bow by your company. Should I?"
"Well" scoffs John. "I wouldn't. That's far too short. It won't be as stable and as forgiving as my 46" bow.".
Tom, not wanting to risk his pro career on something different and remembering says "well that's true, I read that in a book by a guy called Bill Old Pro who mentioned how recurve archers use longer bows too"

Now it's modern day, Tom is doing well on the circuit with his 41" bow and completely forgets his original rejection of such a length.
A new pro named Frank says to him.
"hey Tom. What do you think of this new 34" bow? It shoots well, should I compete with it?"
"No way" says Tom "that will be far too unforgiving and not as stable as my 41" bow."
"Oh.." says Frank. "well that's true, I read that in a book by a guy called Bill Old Pro who mentioned how recurve archers use longer bows too".

And so on and so on.

Any coincidence to names of archers living is not intentional

I have my suspicions it goes something like that with a little bit of this.

Old pro: When i was starting, there where timing issues with shorter A2A bows, so I shot longer ones and won world championships, set world records, etc, etc, with one. I know they work so see no need to change.

Young guy: What do the pros shoot, oh i shall get one of them. Then he wins a world championship and the next young guy looks to see what he is shooting, etc, etc...

However: As the current younger generation become the next set of world champions, i suspect we will see a shift.

I believe that most of the guys who are currently on the top have been there for longer then shorter A2A bows have been perfomring accuratly.

.......................

[wareagle]

I don't think longer A to A are more forgiving..........if your a dwarf.:)

[ReG_C]

well if you want short A2A, you can always try this one :) 20.5 inch A2A

although i am not sure of how the grip would help with bow torque

ReG_C :thumb:

[DanceswithDingoes]

Its not just the ata but the design of the bow that makes it stable (forgiving) and repeatable. Personally I have shot quite a few short bows and had no end of trouble with them in general (the ally was the best, followed by the xt) and find the 36-38" range feels better for me (I have a 27.5" draw) and get better consistency from these bow lengths.
I remember reading an article from a noted archer ( I think it was Terry Ragsdale) and he was commenting on the new short parallel limbed bows like the switchback and he demonstrated it this way. Get a piece of fencing wire and bend it in a rough 'W' shape like the allegiance or switchie, now hold the centre of the w with 2 fingers and apply sidewards pressure on one of the 'limbs' you'll notice the bow pivots very easily. In a bow this equates to torque applied from cam lean, poor nock travel and other oscillating factors on release creating slight sideways movement and due to the design this becomes amplified. I'm not suggesting this occurs in all PL bows with all archers but it is a factor.
Now take another piece of wire and bend it slightly to look like a protec or Apex, now try the same sideways pressure and you will notice it is harder to rotate the wire, therefore sideways oscillation leads to less torque (or pivoting) than the W design of the PL bow. This oscillation is even greater in finger shooters bows and the design is inherently more critical.
I have long advocated the PSE Mojo (and one day I'll actually get around to buying one :rolleyes: ) with its straight riser design as being the most stable, try the wire nearly straight and you'll see what I mean....
Fire away :)

[primal]

but dog we aint talking finger shooters we are talking release aids.

also go and have a look at jims posts with his hooter shooter photo's sidewards movement is induced by poor bow grip and bad release aid use.

i personally prefer my stealth 33 1/3" to my gen 2 36 2/3" the balance feels nicer, yet i score the same with both of them. ???? and there is a difference in brace height also by 3/4".

i think you will find that it has more to do with the user not the bow.

modern bows are machines, enginered to be accurate and repeat the proccess over and over.

[DanceswithDingoes]

Of course the user has to be considered, thats what make the longer/straighter design of the bow LESS responsive to human error......which was my point originally in recommending the Commander over the Guardian FOR SPOTS. :) And cam lean and poorly tuned equipment can have a similar effect.

[primal]

i think you will find that a bow that is less resposive to human error, is a bow that has an excellent grip, one that is less responsive to torque. the only point at which the human eror can occur on the bow. (other then the release)


Matter of fact one of the most untorqueable bows ever was the pse scorpian. a bow that was far ahead of its time. and only 34" long ATA from memory.

[primal]

Liam your a short ars3, your dads a short ars3 and your mum aint much taller then you are now. somehow i doubt you are gonna grow much more.


get the equaliser :)

[Marcus]

Have you seen him lately? He's a foot taller! Bigger than you I'm afraid.

[Liam]

Liam your a short ars3, your dads a short ars3 and your mum aint much taller then you are now. somehow i doubt you are gonna grow much more.


get the equaliser :)

I'm a lot taller than my dad, and a lot taller than my mum, and I have been for quite a while, and have grown at least an inch since, so there goes that theory Primal! :p

Oh and Marcus, it's only a couple of inches!

[primal]

I'm a lot taller than my dad, and a lot taller than my mum, and I have been for quite a while, and have grown at least an inch since, so there goes that theory Primal! :p

Oh and Marcus, it's only a couple of inches!
well stop hunching over like quasi-modo and stand tall brother :)

[Marcus]

Its not just the ata but the design of the bow that makes it stable (forgiving) and repeatable. Personally I have shot quite a few short bows and had no end of trouble with them in general (the ally was the best, followed by the xt) and find the 36-38" range feels better for me (I have a 27.5" draw) and get better consistency from these bow lengths.

No offense DWD, but when have you shot a bow long enough to get it working correctly? There are a huge number of things that if you get it wrong they won't work. Draw length, weight balance, cam rollover etc etc.
So why do you have trouble with short bows and I don't? Perhaps it's the way the user sets it up? How can you make blanket statements such as 'short bows are unforgiving' when there are too many other factors involved?

I remember reading an article from a noted archer ( I think it was Terry Ragsdale) and he was commenting on the new short parallel limbed bows like the switchback and he demonstrated it this way. Get a piece of fencing wire and bend it in a rough 'W' shape like the allegiance or switchie, now hold the centre of the w with 2 fingers and apply sidewards pressure on one of the 'limbs' you'll notice the bow pivots very easily. In a bow this equates to torque applied from cam lean, poor nock travel and other oscillating factors on release creating slight sideways movement and due to the design this becomes amplified. I'm not suggesting this occurs in all PL bows with all archers but it is a factor.


Now take another piece of wire and bend it slightly to look like a protec or Apex, now try the same sideways pressure and you will notice it is harder to rotate the wire, therefore sideways oscillation leads to less torque (or pivoting) than the W design of the PL bow. This oscillation is even greater in finger shooters bows and the design is inherently more critical.

Actually just tested it. It was the same. Also just grabbed a 41" bow and a 34" bow and they were the same.
Axle to axle length has no bearing at all on this area of movement.

I have long advocated the PSE Mojo (and one day I'll actually get around to buying one :rolleyes: ) with its straight riser design as being the most stable, try the wire nearly straight and you'll see what I mean....
Fire away :)

Actually the first time I heard you advocate it was when it won Vegas. I have also used straight risers. I prefer them to deflex but reflex riser balence better and thus aim better because you don't need as much weight further from the hand to make them work.
Straight are much better than deflex for this reason (and a reason I shot them when deflex were all the rage)
See you are very confused DWD. You start off advocating long axle to axle, then try using long brace height to support it and finish off talking about riser shape. These are all not the same thing.

[DanceswithDingoes]

No offense DWD, but when have you shot a bow long enough to get it working correctly? There are a huge number of things that if you get it wrong they won't work. Draw length, weight balance, cam rollover etc etc.
So why do you have trouble with short bows and I don't? Perhaps it's the way the user sets it up? How can you make blanket statements such as 'short bows are unforgiving' when there are too many other factors involved?

Actually just tested it. It was the same. Also just grabbed a 41" bow and a 34" bow and they were the same.
Axle to axle length has no bearing at all on this area of movement.


Actually the first time I heard you advocate it was when it won Vegas. I have also used straight risers. I prefer them to deflex but reflex riser balence better and thus aim better because you don't need as much weight further from the hand to make them work.
Straight are much better than deflex for this reason (and a reason I shot them when deflex were all the rage)
See you are very confused DWD. You start off advocating long axle to axle, then try using long brace height to support it and finish off talking about riser shape. These are all not the same thing.
ummmm...all I did was suggest someone try the commander over the guardian as I believe (and still do) that it would make a better bow for shooting FITA's :rolleyes: As for my experience, not having the facilities to test every bow that I buy leads to my changing of bows on a regular basis. Not all of us have access to a pro-shop or a range to shoot on 24/7, so its become a matter of trial and error.....but I am getting better at it. I'm not totally against short bows, my favourite longbow is a mere 62" ;) As for the Mojo, I think Owen would attest to me hassling him about it for the last 6 months :o My current bow the Supertec, is superbly accurate when I shoot it correctly, but due to a short brace will shoot 5's with the slightest twitch, so do I persist with the bow until I develop perfect repeatable form or find something a little more forgiving yet as accurate...next bow the LX, and a little further away the Mojo 3D :)

[Sandy Hancock]

My current bow the Supertec, is superbly accurate when I shoot it correctly, but due to a short brace will shoot 5's with the slightest twitch, so do I persist with the bow until I develop perfect repeatable form or find something a little more forgiving yet as accurate...next bow the LX, and a little further away the Mojo 3D :)

So you prefer a bow with a low brace height rather than a short ATA? And then you basically say how unforgiving it is :silly:

One of the rationales behind parallel limb bows is that it allows higher brace heights at lower ATA's (correct me if I'm wrong here). Wouldn't this be a better choice?

[Marcus]

The Supertec is a fine example of a bow that is not recommended for non-expert archers due to it's very low brace height and aggressive cams. The spiral cams are very sensitive to timing issues.

As Sandy said, you would be better off with a 32" bow with a 7" BH rather than a 35" bow with a 6".
A poor grip on a low brace height bow will give you more left/right shots. That's not 'forgiveness' that's using the bow correctly.
Nothing to do with axle to axle length.

[primal]

sorry liam we are still off topic


but is Brace hieght relative to draw length?

[Marcus]

no not really, but you can have too much brace height. I think 7" is about right for most people. I think it;s more relative to distance from grip to wrist (but Jim may set me straight there)

[Liam]

I'll have to agree with Rodney 482 on this one.Groups of 4'' at 80 yrds. Not with a axil to axil lenght of less than 34''.I'm not bashing anyone co. here, it just aint so with any of these shorter axil to axil bows. These bows are alright for hunting.But for 3-d your not going to be at the top of the food chain, or money.Let me see now! what pro shooter shoots a short axil to axil bow? and wins!

I think I will go for the commander, after reading that. :)

As an interesting side note, the whole thread that post was taken from is absolutely hilarious. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=458394

[DanceswithDingoes]

The Supertec is a fine example of a bow that is not recommended for non-expert archers due to it's very low brace height and aggressive cams. The spiral cams are very sensitive to timing issues.

As Sandy said, you would be better off with a 32" bow with a 7" BH rather than a 35" bow with a 6".
A poor grip on a low brace height bow will give you more left/right shots. That's not 'forgiveness' that's using the bow correctly.
Nothing to do with axle to axle length.
With the supertec I was chasing speed and a low brace is a trade off, I would love to shoot the allegiance however what I have seen occur with bowtech limbs I could not shoot one with confidence. As for my abilities, I have sound bow form but poor bow fitness and I'm still experimenting with my draw length atm. I am now shooting consistent high 80's / low 90's in 3D rounds with a solid 11 count, but still shooting several 5's particularly late in the round, so I'll working on my form whilst looking for a bow that suits me, not the other way around. I dont change my position, I still believe that a longer ata (not necessarily 40"+) generous brace and neutral riser all contribute to a forgiving bow, that is bow that is LESS likely to react adversely to shooter error. I am entitled to express my opinion.

[primal]

With the supertec I was chasing speed and a low brace is a trade off, I would love to shoot the allegiance however what I have seen occur with bowtech limbs I could not shoot one with confidence. As for my abilities, I have sound bow form but poor bow fitness and I'm still experimenting with my draw length atm. I am now shooting consistent high 80's / low 90's in 3D rounds with a solid 11 count, but still shooting several 5's particularly late in the round, so I'll working on my form whilst looking for a bow that suits me, not the other way around. I dont change my position, I still believe that a longer ata (not necessarily 40"+) generous brace and neutral riser all contribute to a forgiving bow, that is bow that is LESS likely to react adversely to shooter error. I am entitled to express my opinion.
so by your logic my 1980's hoyt promedalist wiht it 56" odd ATA 9 1/2" brace ad deflect riser design is going to out shoot my stealth???

[Hannah]

so by your logic my 1980's hoyt promedalist wiht it 56" odd ATA 9 1/2" brace ad deflect riser design is going to out shoot my stealth???
Of course - didn't you know?

[Eberbachl]

Seriously DWD, if you'd love to shoot an Allegiance (your own words), I encourage you to just do it. Find out first hand what all the hype is about and shoot a truly great bow.

Forget about what you've heard, and just go right ahead and shoot one.

I shot mine with confidence and got great scores, and it's still going nicely over in WA. Now I"m shooting my Old Glory with confidence too, and smashing PBs almost weekly!

:thumb:

Rest assured, if you did have a problem with an Allegiance limb - hey - no big deal. The warranty support is great.

If you choose not to shoot a Bowtech because of what you've heard around the traps, that's your decision.

I agree that Brace height is important, but disagree that Axle to Axle length on a single cam or binary cam bow or riser geometry is somehow related to forgiveness.

The days of thinking deflex or neutral risers were more forgiving come from the fact that they usually had longer brace heights.

With parallel limbs, you can have a reflex riser which balances beautifully along with a generous brace height.

Go too short on your brace height and you're in trouble, as you have found on the SuperTec. Similarly, go too short on a dual cam bow or a hybrid, and timing becomes critical.

But on a single cam or binary cam bow, shoot what you like in relation to AtoA length - just keep a decent brace height. Personally I think over 7" is pretty nice. I prefer closer to 7 1/2", but certainly won't shoot under 7".

:thumb:

[DanceswithDingoes]

Ive shot an Allegiance and an equaliser on different occasions, but confidence is a personal thing that led to me parting with the Independence, a bow that is still going strong in your club I believe. Caleb, re-read the thread I didnt say it would outshoot your stealth, but I'll bet its less sensitive to shooter error.

[Eberbachl]

Ive shot an Allegiance and an equaliser on different occasions, but confidence is a personal thing that led to me parting with the Independence, a bow that is still going strong in your club I believe. Caleb, re-read the thread I didnt say it would outshoot your stealth, but I'll bet its less sensitive to shooter error.

Is that the blue one with the dinner plate sized idler wheel?

Great bow :thumb:

[Hannah]

Ive shot an Allegiance and an equaliser on different occasions, but confidence is a personal thing that led to me parting with the Independence, a bow that is still going strong in your club I believe. Caleb, re-read the thread I didnt say it would outshoot your stealth, but I'll bet its less sensitive to shooter error.
Now this is an interesting suggestion. You are betting on something that is hypothetical (always the safest kind of bet, IMO). The Stealth potentially outshoots the Promedallist. The Promedallist is potentially more "forgiving". Is it because the bow is more forgiving to user error that makes it less accurate and therefore the Stealth outshoot it?

[dbjac]

but I'll bet its less sensitive to shooter error.
You keep making this statement with absolutely no evidence to support it.

[DanceswithDingoes]

then I suggest you re-read the thread....slowly....:rolleyes: Hannah don't confuse forgiveness and accuracy, one is the potential for a bow to react to shooter error and the other is its ability to consistently hit a desired point on a target. Im sure if you put both bows in a shooting machine they would be of similar accuracy. Over distance, well that where other factors come in to play.

[Marcus]

I find that my Bowtech Allegiance has become more forgiving the better I use my release aid.
Caleb can attest to me at the state target firing a shot and saying 'oh ****!' I figured that was a 7. Turns out it was a low 10.
Now I could say 'wow the Allegiance is so forgiving' but that would be wrong because the bow is only shooting them where I was pointing them. And that is the key point. Where you think you are pointing them and where you are often actually are can be 2 totally different things. The bow just delivers it where aimed.
If you move your release hand or jab at the trigger then at the moment of release you don't know where the arrow is actually pointing. Axle length and brace height won't help you here. That is why we miss.

Now a bow that can deliver an arrow other than where you aimed it (which is what you are implying is a good thing) is a very very bad thing. If I accidently aimed that arrow at the 8 and it lands in teh 10, why would it shoot 10's when I aim at the 10? The bow doesn't know the difference.

[DanceswithDingoes]

If you move your release hand or jab at the trigger then at the moment of release you don't know where the arrow is actually pointing. Axle length and brace height won't help you here. That is why we miss.
This is where I disagree Marcus, riser/bow design (which incorporates length and brace) can be a critical factor in determining how adversely the bow is affected by shooter error (poor release, torquing, bow arm movement, incorrect follow-through etc.) Now here is where it can vary between games, take my supertec for instance, I could argue that bow is reasonably forgiving of shooter error because if I underestimate the distance to the target, the bow has the ponies to keep the arrow on a flatter trajectory and minimising drop, therefore forgiving my error in judgement. The same bow however only has a 5 3/4" brace and if I shoot with poor form will miss or 5 the target, so the trick here would be to find a bow that delivers the speed without compromising other factors that can compensate for minor form errors like you suggested. FITA target has its own set of complex issues to resolve, for example would a Bowtech Allegiance be more or less responsive to human error than say a Ross CR334 or an AR34, both significantly slower than the ally? Here we need to factor in fatigue, how the archer maintains consistency of form over a large number of shots. As the specs on those bows are almost identical except for the speed, one could assume the allegiance speed comes from an aggressive cam system, would this create more fatigue in the archer as they continue to draw, hold and loose, leading to potentially poorer scoring particularly in the latter stages? As speed is not as important in the FITA game as it is in say 3D archery wouldn't the Ross or the AR be better bows for that game? You can say that archer fitness is an important factor in FITA as distance judging is in 3D so bows that assist to compensate for archer errors in those areas, must by definition be considered as more 'forgiving' than those designs that tend to amplify archer errors.
The point you make about the errors in your release is exactly what I was referring to initially with the wire analogy as the 'w' shape is sensitive to rearward pivoting.

[Marcus]

And this is where your assumptions fall down.

a) Is the AR better for FITA than the Allegiance because it is less aggressive?
Answer. No. Firstly it is not less aggressive, in fact the AR has quite a large fill percentage comparred to the Allegiance with Smooth mods.
Secondly speed is important in FITA as it deliveres more energy to te arrow and impacts less in in the wind. For example a smooth draw Allegiance is better in the wind than an AR. However that means squat if the archer doesn't execute correctly in the wind in the first place

b) is speed better in 3D? No. Downrange velocity is. But this is a debate not worth getting into here because it is irrelevent.

The major problem with your arguement is this. You are assuming in variables and guessing that the bow will somehow take care of those variables. It will not. It will go where you aim it. Simple.

Have you considered using a blue bow because blue has a calming influence which should help if you get nervous?
See Chance used a red bow to win Vegas because when his competitors look at him it increased their heart rate and caused them to miss.

[DanceswithDingoes]

All my bows are blue, I must be one cool SOB :)

[wareagle]

Oh good advise, so my next bow is going to be a long A to A in blue. :D Hmmm...C4 coming up.

[Marcus]

All my bows are blue, I must be one cool SOB :)
I think you have found your answer!
Explains like Eberbachl can't shoot a red bow. (but loves a chrome one)

[Eberbachl]

I think you have found your answer!
Explains like Eberbachl can't shoot a red bow. (but loves a chrome one)

Damn straight ;)

Red is evil :D

Chrome is hot ;) And blue is pretty neat too.

:D

It's all about the colour damnit!

:rofl:

[Ozzy]

Damn straight ;)

Red is evil :D

Chrome is hot ;) And blue is pretty neat too.

:D

It's all about the colour damnit!

:rofl:

& cammo ? - rambo ?

Those theories on red bows & mood may have some merit.
Blue - soothing.

[Eberbachl]

& cammo ? - rambo ?

Those theories on red bows & mood may have some merit.
Blue - soothing.

Cammo I don't mind on the field course.

...but red - never!

:rofl:

[ReG_C]

I love my camo bow :) it still shoots well, but we ach have our preferences :D i know someone that likes the ally in black marble :o

[Marcus]

I shot a Hardwoods Green Allegiance last year and loved it. Would still have it if I didn't have a customer keen on one. Great bow. The colour wasn't a big deal and frankly I couldn't care less anymore. I figure I'll only have the bow for a few months anyway.
I did have a Black Marble ally for a few weeks, but didn't like that colour. Too many of them at the time.

[ReG_C]

i just don't like the idea of a black bow (except a matthews LX - they just look menacing)

i can imagine trying to pick one up that had been left in the sun at morwell on sunday - ouch

[Alan Loy]

OMG I think Marcus said he didn't care which colour his bow is!!??

No ! Can't be! I must be dreaming.

[Marcus]

don't care about the bow colour, as long as the accessories match. ;)

[Erika]

don't care about the bow colour, as long as the accessories match. ;)

Not true. You don't seem to do so well with silver ones. ;)

[Marcus]

I will clarify that with Platnium. The Clear Chrome is rocking! :thumb:
Platnium bows however suck!

[Erika]

I will clarify that with Platnium. The Clear Chrome is rocking! :thumb:
Platnium bows however suck!

Cough...cough... and what happened to my clear chrome bow?

[chryd]

I always thought those chrome silver bows must be a nightmare on a sunny day (not that we get many here in England....). Don't you guys end up getting blinded by reflections off them?

[Marcus]

I shot back to back 300's with it this week. :p :thumb:
It's enjoying working for me.

[Marcus]

I always thought those chrome silver bows must be a nightmare on a sunny day (not that we get many here in England....). Don't you guys end up getting blinded by reflections off them?
Only once, during a FITA I was shooting OK and halfway through an end and decided to polish the back of the riser. You can see the results, I'm on the right.
http://www.dva.asn.au/gallery/chewton1206/IMG_3624.jpg


However I have not had any other issues, quite like it now.

[Eberbachl]

I always thought those chrome silver bows must be a nightmare on a sunny day (not that we get many here in England....). Don't you guys end up getting blinded by reflections off them?

Nah, shot my Old Glory Chrome bow on lots of sunny days. Never notice any reflections standing out.

;)

[ttamas]

See Chance used a red bow to win Vegas because when his competitors look at him it increased their heart rate and caused them to miss.

Interesting. The bow looks a PSE Mojo NRG and looks red on the video and images, but it should be rather orange... PSE does not spray it red for the public (according to the homepage, but maybe "Chance might have a chance" to have it in red...). By the way, it is 39.625 ATA.... (I know, it was indoor, where the speed does not matter at all.)

Question: I've never tried Bowtech ally, but heard about frequent limb breaks. Looking at the opinions here, I would try the bow, but....the breaks... Is it a gossip, or true?

[DanceswithDingoes]

Question: I've never tried Bowtech ally, but heard about frequent limb breaks. Looking at the opinions here, I would try the bow, but....the breaks... Is it a gossip, or true?
:popcorn:

[ReG_C]

Hi Marcus, where was that shoot held, it looked like a glorious day for shooting, cept the flare of course

[Marcus]

Chewton Bowmen.
Always good at Chewton. :thumb: