ACE vs X10

[James Park]

Amongst other things, I used the recent Yarra Valley flight shoot to test some differences between ACE's and X10's.
I have studied the arrows in some considerable detail, mathematically. In particular, I have looked carefully at the aerodynamic drag, the energy they obtain from the bow, the drift in wind, and the down range velocity. Much of this can be now found in "Accurate Sights", so long as you have sight settings for each type of arrow.

What have I concluded?:
- For my PSE Quantum, I get a velocity of 267 ft/sec for my size 500 X10's, 279 ft/sec for my size 520 ACE's.
- The X10's weight 339 grains, and the ACE's weight 298 grains.
- At 90 Metres, the X10's have a velocity of 238 ft/sec and an energy of 57.7 Joules, and the ACE's have a velocity of 241 ft/sec and an energy of 52.3 Joules That is, at 90 Metres the velocities are about the same but the X10's have considerably more energy.
- This additional energy, their smaller cross-sectional area, and their greater weight means that the X10's will drift about 15% less than the ACE's.
- The X10's will hit the target considerably harder than the ACE's, particularly at the longer distances.
- In the flight shoot, my X10's travelled about 7% longer distance than the ACE's.
- From the flight shoot I have concluded that the mathematical modelling of arrow trajectories that I use in Accurate Sights is correct, and hence it can be used to make judgements about the optimum equipment to select.
- My modelling of arrows other than X10's and ACE's has also been tested for Safari's (I shot some of them in the flight event as well).

Overall, I am firmly convinced that X10's are the superior arrow for target archery. Of all the arrows I have modelled (all the ones listed in Accurate Sights), I know of no better arrows than the X10's. Probably the next best would be McKinney's (I have done the maths, but not shot them), although for the stiffer sizes their diameter gets a bit large.

Whilst the above comments pertain to target archery, the conclusions would be different for field or indoor archery.

[Kuru]

Great stuff James, I enjoy reading your reviews as they are based on math not company promotional hype. I chose the x10's after seeing what you had to say about them, I don't shoot a cam bow and only shoot 55lbs so drift is obvously a problem with me at 90 and 70. Thanks for the "REAL" info on archery equipment. I have emailed some of your posts to a friend who is also a physicist at the transport accident commission as she loves this sort of thing and is an avid bowhunter

[Marcus]

I would be interested in knowing the details of a Doo Sung Olympian vs a X10. The Olympians are eavier than the ACE and have a smaller diametre. However are not as small and heavy as the X10. The drift would be an interesting one as I'm sure the distance shot would be minimal.

[James Park]

I have not shot the Olympian shafts, although I have had a good look at them. However, we can use the analytical capabilities of Accurate Sights to study their performance.
First, because they vary in diameter and weight, we have to select the appropriate size for a comparison. I use size 500 X10's, and size 520 ACE's for my PSE Quantum, and from the Olympian selection chart I would select size 500.
Size 500 Olympians would give me a diameter of 5.4mm and a total shaft weight of 326 grains. Note that they are straight shafts rather than barrelled shafts, which also affects their side area (and hence their drift, but Accurate Sights does allow for this).
From (a slightly modified) Accurate Sights, I can then calculate the arrow velocity for a 500 Olympian from my Quantum to be 271 ft/sec.
This then allows me to calculate the predicted drift and to compare it with ACE's and X10's.
Taking the drift for an X10 as the base, the Olympians drift is 7% greater, and the ACE's drift is 15% greater.
The terminal energy foir each shaft at 90M is: X10 57.6 Joules, Olympian 52.6 Joules and ACE 52.3 Joules.

Hence, my conclusion is that X10's are better for target archery than either the Olympian or the ACE, but that the Olympian is better than the ACE. The differences are of a magnitude that I am confident that a good archer would notice them.

One further area I would want to investigate prior to purchasing a set of Olympians is their durability. As I have noted elsewhere, X10's are particularly durable (due to the thickness of carbon compared to ACE's, I think. The Olympians will have less carbon than the X10's, and hence they should not be durable, although their over-point should be an advantage in avoiding end splits. (But this is conjecture, as I have not shot them).

Assuming the above is all correct (and I am quite confident of the maths), it then gets down to economics and how much you (as an individual) are prepared to pay for a little less drift. That is: is the price difference between X10's and Olympians worth the improvement in drift? Also: what is the price difference when we also include the lifetime of the arrows (assuming one lasts longer than the other)?

[James Park]

A couple of general rules you can use when comparing arrows for target archery:
- For arrows of the same diameter, a lighter arrow will drift more.
- For arrows of the same weight, a larger diameter arrow will drift more.
- Where both the weight and diameter are smaller we will need to do the maths to work out which one drifts less.
- Barrelled shafts will drift less than non-barrelled shafts for the same maximum diameter and weight.
With these general rules you can reasonably quickly get an idea of which shafts might be best (from the point of view of drift).

All of this does assume, of course, that the different types group equally well in still conditions.

[mike]

Its a lot to think about for a recreational sport!!!!

However, as someone who will be competing in the selection trial coming up, I am concerned to consider all these things.

I agree with Gareth, its good to have someone doing some really scientific analysis of the pros and cons of different arrows. None of the companies seem to want to promote or ecourage this (I wonder why...).

It seems that all this has sent a few people back to the drawing board in terms of the arrows that they want to buy!

Could it be that the ACE becomes a somewhat redundant arrow, given the high quality competition it has now from CT and Doosung.

It seems that the only thing you would buy ACEs for is field as they are still the lightest arrow per inch on the market for the 29inch 60 pound people.

But, if X10s and McKinneys group so well (as they seem to given that they hold all the records) why wouldn't you just use them all the time. McKinneys are cheaper than ACEs after all.

Leads back to the old speed vs accuracy dilemma....

On accurate sights, the 500 safaris I will be using at the trial (thanks Jim...) give 285 fps. According to its calculations, I can have a guaging error of up to 2m before I will shoot a 4. This says to me that speed is good, but it also says, that for my old arrows (that only did 265fps), all I had to do was guage better.

I don't believe that I would have done better than a 175 for 12 targets last time I shot unmarked if I had the faster arrows. It was my shooting that lost me 5 points.

I think that the setup to use is the one that groups best and is in the best tune and is most comfortable. Accuracy, at the end of the day, is what gets you the score. I am starting to lean towards the accuracy side of the dilemma!!!

Speed is fun though!!! :D

[Marcus]

Although I shoot ACE's I agree that they have become a redundent arrow with the advent of the DooSung shaft. Shen I bought a set last year they were to replace a set of CT's that I could not get decent components for and were not as durable as they should've been. But now with the Olymipians I believe that there are now 2 choices, and they are different. The X10's are the best. When I bought Erika's I was told by everyone at my club 'don't buy them, they split, they'll last only a few weeks" and now 6 months later she's hit the wood three times and all 12 are perfect.
And at $30 per arrow made up the Olympians are showing up as durable. I don't know of any breakages just yet.
Also I agree on the speed thing. If speed is what it's about then why don't we all shoot the setup Leigh was shooting at the flight?
Good luck at the trial!

[James Park]

While what we have covered above is for target archery, and the X10 is the best selection, the situation is a little different for field archery.
For field we have three criteria to considerL:
- We may have to shoot up or down hill.
- We may have to estimate distances.
- We would like to have arrows that are likely to cut the target lines.
In each of these respects the X10 is not the best selection.
Using me and my PSE Quantum as an example:
- With X10's, my initial arrow velocity is 267 ft/sec. At 60 Metres this has fallen to 247 ft/sec. My sight gap from 45 to 60 Metres is 9.8 mm. I need to guess the distance of an 80 cm face at 55 Metres to within 1 Metre if I am to score a 5.
- With ACE's, my initial arrow velocity is 279ft/sec. At 60 Metres this has fallen to 253ft/sec. My sight gap from 45 to 60 Metres is 8.8 mm. I need to guess the distance of an 80 cm face at 55 Metres to within 2 Metres if I am to score a 5.
- With Safari's, my initial arrow velocity is 279ft/sec. At 60 Metres this has fallen to 241ft/sec. My sight gap from 45 to 60 Metres is 9.7 mm. I need to guess the distance of an 80 cm face at 55 Metres to within 2 Metres if I am to score a 5.
- With Olympian's, my initial arrow velocity is 271ft/sec. At 60 Metres this has fallen to 245ft/sec. My sight gap from 45 to 60 Metres is 9.8 mm. I need to guess the distance of an 80 cm face at 55 Metres to within 1 Metre if I am to score a 5.
Hence, the best selection for me, for field, would be ACE's or Safari's. With a bit of wind it would certainly be the ACE's, with no wind it would probably be the Safari's. Neither the X10's nor the Olympians would be as good.
Hence, so long as I can afford it, I would have a set of X10's for target, and a set of ACE's (or Safari's) for field.
Indoor, is of course, another story, with quite different optimization criteria.

[Marcus]

Indoor I have started to mess with some CarbonAreos which are virtually the same as Safaris (except the originals). I messed around with 2315's last year and found that while the line cutters were nice I wasn't scoring any higher than the ACE's. (297's). I took this down as 2 reasons.
The 2315's were too stiff and thus did not group as well.
The 2315's were so slow that any mess up in form late in the shot would show up, while with the ACE's they would not.
The CarbonAreos, while not as big as the 2315's are still nice and wide, but also matched to my bow and fast. Thus I will be able to shoot with minimal tuning change, still get some forgivness and still cut lines.
Hopefully the best of all factors.

[mike]

Thats interesting Jim that you get 279 for you safaris! I get 285 and yet I have a draw length about 1/4 inch shorter than you. Are you talking about the arrows that I am now shooting? Could my old High Country be quicker than the Quantum??

:D

I am going to put spin wings on the safaris - should get about 5 extra fps and I am firmly convinced that they straighten out the flight and produce better grouping, even though these safaris are grouping really well already.

[James Park]

The carbon arrows sound good Marcus. Also, I found it difficult to stop the aluminiums from bending (although I twice shot 300 with them).
Yes Michael, same Safari's - 58 pounds draw weight. I guess the High Country is a reasonably quick bow!

[Kuru]

Having shot my X10's for the first time this weekend I can attest to James's math, these things were awesome from 70 and 90, I'm only getting 229 f/sec out of my mach 9 @52 # but the x10's more then made up for the gap to single cam bows. Mind you below 60meters I'd rather the ACE'S but thats a personal thing. It's funny watching the x10's from 70 and 90, they just lob like tennis balls but no drift, fantastic !

[2Dogs]

Great stuff Jim.

Having shot x10's ACE's Olympians and CT's, i'm sticking with the Olympians.

The Olympians are extremely durable, and the amount of carbon wrap on the shaft is almost as much as an x10, about 3times as much as an ACE. They are one tough arrow, just like the X10.

Mathmatically the Olympians may drift 7% more than an X10, but I find when shooting in a wind I get blown around more then anything my arrows will experience. Yes I do notice the difference in drift bewteen my ACE's vs X10 & Olympians, but I can't tell the difference between my X10's and Olympians.

I'm shooting the Olympians with an ACE pin nock so maybe the drift is less then 7%

I'm finding that a change to a Beiter Rod has made the biggest change in my ability to shoot well in the wind, plus the Hoyt Risers appear to have less surface area to catch the wind.

Plus there is the cost factor, geez when I stopped shooting in 1995 I bought my ACE's for $230 a dozen and that busted me. Come back in 2001 and they cost $499 a dz and these new fandangled X10's are $650 a dz. This sport is EXPENSIVE, how you guys can afford to buy and shoot X10's is beyond me. The only people I new who were shooting them were sponsored

Love the Accurate sights Jim, as good as anything my AA palm or AA for windows can pump out. As you've stated before if you can work out something with Marianne and combine target plot with AS you will have a product that will out do AA.

Cheers

[Kuru]

Paul the x10's may seem expensive, well not may seem they are expensive but they are also very tough ! If they last longer then in the long run it'll be cheaper, ask Marcus how many ace's he has left and then ask him how many x10's his wife has left. Mind you every time I go out and shoot i think dam i hope i don't damage them but then i can always just order more and worry about paying for them when they're ready :lol: Plus at 90 and 70 I need all the help i can get !!!!

[Marcus]

If the Doo Sung's were not around I would be getting X10's next without question. Erika has put 3 into wood for various reasons and all are OK. However my Dad has killed only 1 Doo Sung and that was hitting steel I believe. So while the X10 kills the ACE for durability, the Doo Sungs may be as good.
I like the X10's and if I had money to spare would get them, but then 30 Doo Sungs vs 12 X10's allows me to play with spines etc etc to make sure I get the right ones. I would hate to get a set of X10's and find they are too stiff or something.

[2Dogs]

I'd have to agree with you that the X10 is the Rolls Royce of arrow shafts. I'm an Easton Man from way back because I think their quality is second to none.

There was a pretty big gap in the target shafts a little while ago, you had the X10 small heavy no drift, and the ACE & ACC shafts, the ACE being faster, fragile and the ACC not much good in the wind at 90m.

The CT's came along and so long as you were shooting the 210 size and down their performance is good, 215 and up they are too heavy.

The Olympians seem to fill the gap between the ACE, CT models. I'm too scared to shoot X10's.....I think I would punch someone out if they busted the nock end off my arrow at a shoot :D

I don't understand why Easton charges so much for X10's compared to ACE's. Except for some extra carbon wrap there isn't a big difference.

Oh well if i can go and shoot some 1390's in some FITA star's maybe Mr Rabska will provide some for me.

Cheers guys

[Marcus]

At a FITA shoot I blew off 2 nocks, a fletch and crushed the side of 4 of Greg's X10's. About $60 worth of damage.

[Kuru]

Paul the reason easton change so much for their x10's is because they know suckers like me will buy them !!! :D

[James Park]

Tory Watson has a good story about X10's.
He recently purchased a set, and is very pleased with them. They group very well, and his arrow flight is excellent. The story is as follows:
Tory has not yet managed a perfect at 70 Metres (59 many times). With his brand new set of X10's he was shooting at Sherbrooke at 70 Metres. His first five shots with his exceedingly new set of expensive arrows were all in the 10 ring. Tory saw his perfect just one shot away. He shot the sixth arrow very well and it made a bit of a crash in the middle of the target. Hence, he was pretty sure he finally had his perfect. Down at the target, he found that his sixth arrow had chopped the back of one of the others in the middle of the 10 ring and bounced out into the 9 ring, for a 59.
The moral of the tale is that it is impossible to have a full set of arrows - one way or another you are bound to lose one or break one not long after you purchase the set.

[Marcus]

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's the way things go huh!
Yep I ALWAYS break an arrow within a week of getting a set, that's got to bet the best way of doing it though!!

[McDoof]

Hallo everybody out there...

I registered myself just a few minutes ago and then I saw this subject!!! :wink:

I have shot ACE for about 2 years, X10 for about 1 year and now I bought some McKinney's just about two weeks ago.

Personally I like all arrows but the McKinney seems to suit me very well. The ACE's and X10's were very good too but the price of them increased a lot in Germany since the last year. The McKinney's are only about half the price of the X10's and I already made some good training results with them.

90m - 295 points
70m - 319 points

The other distances I haven't done yet with 36 arrows in a row. Although the scores aren't very high I'm very satisfied with how the McKinney's work (I'm a recurve archer without any coach :cry: ...).