View Full Version : Indoor Shooting: Wrong face shot
Marcus
10-09-2007, 01:48 PM
OK so you are shooting at the Indoors and do this
Orange Dot is arrow 1
Blue dot is arrow 2
Red dot is arrow 3
What is your score? The go to next post
Marcus
10-09-2007, 01:49 PM
After those 3 you then shoot the Green dot. What is your score for that end?
Archangel
10-09-2007, 01:57 PM
Okay, I'll bite: [10, 9] in both cases.
Stryker
10-09-2007, 01:57 PM
9,9,miss = 18
Stryker
10-09-2007, 01:59 PM
9,9,miss = 18
9,9,miss = 18
9,9,miss = 18
Inner 10 scoring....
Stryker
10-09-2007, 02:04 PM
After those 3 you then shoot the Green dot. What is your score for that end?
Are you saying that 4 arrows where shot on the 2nd end?
Clare Barnes
10-09-2007, 02:04 PM
Make them learn and just give them 9 - take off the highest scoring arrow on the target with 2 arrows on, and then the next highest arrow because they shot 4 arrows. :D
(PS I am not a judge!)
Archangel
10-09-2007, 02:21 PM
9,9,miss = 18
9,9,miss = 18
Inner 10 scoring....
I assumed outer 10. Problem was insufficiently specified! ;-)
Marcus
10-09-2007, 02:23 PM
Are you saying that 4 arrows where shot on the 2nd end?
yes
maskn
10-09-2007, 02:24 PM
After those 3 you then shoot the Green dot. What is your score for that end?
I haven't done indoor before, But isn't it 4,5, miss, miss
Stryker
10-09-2007, 02:25 PM
I assumed outer 10. Problem was insufficiently specified! ;-)
FITA Indoor is inner 10.
GuyDawg9
10-09-2007, 02:29 PM
woouldn't it be like normal and loss high scoring arrow on the target with two arrows
Clare Barnes
10-09-2007, 02:29 PM
FITA Indoor is inner 10.
Only for compound...
Gary Petts
10-09-2007, 02:35 PM
I didn't think number order of targets matters. First guess is take away the highest scoring arrow on target with two arrows therefore 9,9,9. :confused:
Archangel
10-09-2007, 02:42 PM
FITA Indoor is inner 10.
Only for half of the divisions, otherwise they wouldn't need an inner 10/outer 10 ;-)
Stryker
10-09-2007, 02:42 PM
Only for compound...
Very true Clare... I guess you just get use to the scoring rules for the bow type you use..
I do stand corrected AGAIN!!
Archangel
10-09-2007, 02:43 PM
I didn't think number order of targets matters. First guess is take away the highest scoring arrow on target with two arrows therefore 9,9,9. :confused:
No, you lose one arrow for shooting two on one target _and_ one for shooting an extra arrow. FITA are nearly as tough as Clare ;-)
Gary Petts
10-09-2007, 02:45 PM
No, you lose one arrow for shooting two on one target _and_ one for shooting an extra arrow. FITA are nearly as tough as Clare ;-)
That makes sense.:thumb:
Marcus
10-09-2007, 02:49 PM
OK lets assume the 2 liner arrows are 10's.
On the first example it would be
10, 9, Miss
On the second
10, 10, 9
REIDY
10-09-2007, 02:51 PM
Good one Marcus,
The judge is not going to know the order in which they were shot and so could only rule on the fact that there are 2 arrows in the top target.
In this case the score would be 10, 10, 9 (recurve) or 9, 9, 9 (compound)
I think !!!!!!!!
Pete
James Park
10-09-2007, 03:06 PM
It definitely is a case of: 'just shot three arrows but seem to have two on the same face when only one is permitted, absolutely essential to shoot a fourth arrow'.
ReG_C
10-09-2007, 03:24 PM
I agree with James Park, if you inadvertantly shot on the same face, to stop encountering a 'miss' you shot a fourth arrow to circumvent the 'miss' and get it removed as an extra arrow shot, a very good question indeed
Archangel
10-09-2007, 03:29 PM
I appear to be outvoted, but I still disagree. That interpretation encourages you to break the rules and knowingly shoot a fourth arrow once you've got two in the same target - that doesn't seem right to me.
And I'm sure I've heard this one somewhere before...
ReG_C
10-09-2007, 03:31 PM
but it makes for an interesting discussion, particularly if there is a known 'loop-hole' in the rules
Its all about doublethink. You know you shot a fourth arrow, yet you "don't know" that you shot a fourth arrow...
puddin
10-09-2007, 03:44 PM
Make them learn and just give them 9 - take off the highest scoring arrow on the target with 2 arrows on, and then the next highest arrow because they shot 4 arrows. :D
(PS I am not a judge!)
clare is correct if you are going by the rules. you loose firstly for the two shot into one you loose the top score. then your top score of the ones recorded (9,9) gets made a miss for shooting four arrows.
(this was a topic of one of the recent fita rule interpretation newsletters)
harsh but the way it is. so you wolud score 9 9 in first case and only 9 in the second.
Archangel
10-09-2007, 04:12 PM
Its all about doublethink. You know you shot a fourth arrow, yet you "don't know" that you shot a fourth arrow...
Ignorance is strength...
So if the archer is honest they get: 10 9
If they're not honest they get: 10 10 9
?
The One
10-09-2007, 06:02 PM
OK lets assume the 2 liner arrows are 10's.
On the first example it would be
10, 9, Miss
On the second
10, 10, 9
I disagree with the second answer. The archer has committed two fouls and loses two arrows - the highest score on the top target for shooting two on the same face, and then the next highest scoring arrow, for shooting an extra arrow. Hence, 10, 9, M for both examples
Of course if it were a single face they were shooting on, then it would be 10, 10, 9.
OK so you are shooting at the Indoors and do this
Orange Dot is arrow 1
Blue dot is arrow 2
Red dot is arrow 3
What is your score? The go to next post
Scenario 1
Let's assume we are talking FITA compound here.
If you have more than one arrow in a face you score the lower value arrow.
The other one is counted as a miss.
Let's also assume the arrows are not line-cutters.
So in T1 you have a 9
In T2 you have a 9 and a 9
You score the lower value in T2 - a 9
The other arrow is a miss
So you have 3 scores - 9, 9, M - hence you get 18
In Scenario 2 you shot 4 arrows - the order is irrelevant (although it used to be)
In T1 you have a 9
In T2 you have a 9 and a 9 (the lower value arrow is scored - 9; the other is a miss)
In T3 you have a 9
Since you shot more than 3 arrows only the lowest 3 count, viz. 9, 9, M = 18
Clear?
You may assume the line-cutters are 10's and adjust accordingly!
It definitely is a case of: 'just shot three arrows but seem to have two on the same face when only one is permitted, absolutely essential to shoot a fourth arrow'.
Even if you shot a 10 on T3 with your fourth arrow only the 3 lowest would still count. You now have 4 arrow values - 10, 9, 9, M but only the 3 lowest count; hence 9, 9, M.
Not much point in shooting a 4th!
Let's say you then decide to shoot a 5th arrow but after the signal to stop shooting sounds (it's in the 10 on T3!) - What's your score then?
James Park
10-09-2007, 07:05 PM
Not much point in shooting a 4th!
I think I might shoot 4 anyway (and hope that Margaret is the judge - at one stage we convinced her that the X scored 11, so that was ok). Then I would argue a lot and cause a big scene !!!
I think I might shoot 4 anyway (and hope that Margaret is the judge - at one stage we convinced her that the X scored 11, so that was ok). Then I would argue a lot and cause a big scene !!!
An 11 - you must be very convincing, Jim. Put in an appeal and hand over your $50 - who knows, you could be successful!
:thumb:
The One
10-09-2007, 08:19 PM
Let's say you then decide to shoot a 5th arrow but after the signal to stop shooting sounds (it's in the 10 on T3!) - What's your score then?
9, M, M methinks
Marcus
10-09-2007, 10:11 PM
OK so lets say you shot the extra arrow on the 3rd target. Would that count as a 4th arrow and thus you lose the highest scoring arrow only? Or would it count as a miss?
timppa
10-09-2007, 10:24 PM
FITA Judges Guidebook gives you answer:
5.3.1
Jim Reid
10-09-2007, 10:29 PM
Clare is correct
Is Clare ever wrong?
Reckon she needs to be kidnapped, taken to a secret location and made to type stupid comments on AF.... hang on she already does that, that is not what I mean. She need to get things WRONG for the good of the rest of us.
This woman is a menace!!! :silly:
The One
11-09-2007, 04:01 AM
[QUOTE=timppa]FITA Judges Guidebook gives you answer:
5.3.1
Hannah
11-09-2007, 08:39 AM
Wow - how to cheat and get away with it :D
primal
11-09-2007, 08:43 AM
the ruling/example timmpa posted seems to state that you loose 2 arrows, the "miss" in the second target and the highest arrow for shoorting on 2 many.
Hannah
11-09-2007, 09:02 AM
When removing points, would they frist get rid of the highest arrow on a target where they shot two, then subtract the next highest?
I.e. 10 on the first target, 8 and 7 on the second and a 9 on the third.
Would they receive 9,7,M or 8,7,M?
I would guess they should receive 9,7,M...
Actually, I would have thought that he would get 8,7,M, because it is the three lowest scores.
However, when shooting four arrows we only score the three lowest values; here that would be 9-9-M.
The One
11-09-2007, 03:42 PM
Actually, I would have thought that he would get 8,7,M, because it is the three lowest scores.
But then both scoring arrows were shot on the same face. Is this correct, or not?
Hannah
11-09-2007, 04:05 PM
But then both scoring arrows were shot on the same face. Is this correct, or not?
IMO It doesn't matter whether the two arrows were shot at the same target (incidentally, the rules do not adequately define this). The archer is being penalised for a) making an error (shooting the wrong target) and b) for shooting an extra arrow. It is the archers fault that has led to their score deficiency, the rules are attempting to mitigate any gain that the archer could glean from the incident, which in this case leads to a "non-intuitive" end result.
Hannah
11-09-2007, 04:07 PM
But then both scoring arrows were shot on the same face. Is this correct, or not?
IMO It doesn't matter whether the two arrows were shot at the same target. The archer is being penalised for a) making an error (shooting the wrong target) and b) for shooting an extra arrow. It is the archers fault that has led to their score deficiency, the rules are attempting to mitigate any gain that the archer could glean from the incident, which in this case leads to a "non-intuitive" end result. At least, that is the way that I would interpret the rules in this case.
Clare Barnes
11-09-2007, 04:14 PM
FITA rules are soft, even in outdoor target. :D
I think if people shoot too many arrows their score should not be the lowest six arrows, but the lowest ones after taking the number of extra arrows shot off the possible scoring arrows. e.g. You shoot 8 arrows instead of 6 you shot 2 extra so your score can only be out of 60 - 20 = 40, then take the lowest 4! :rofl:
Bet you're pleased I'm not a judge! :silly:
Hannah
11-09-2007, 04:19 PM
FITA rules are soft, even in outdoor target. :D
I think if people shoot too many arrows their score should not be the lowest six arrows, but the lowest ones after taking the number of extra arrows shot off the possible scoring arrows. e.g. You shoot 8 arrows instead of 6 you shot 2 extra so your score can only be out of 60 - 20 = 40, then take the lowest 4! :rofl:
Bet you're pleased I'm not a judge! :silly:
Kinda - but then I would be voting for having the archer disqualified if they can't stick to the rules (which would include shooting extra arrows into a target). Probably a bit harsh, but shooting an extra arrow (though most of us has done it) is very different from shooting an arrow on the wrong face. Both are stupid, but one can be easily avoided by separating your arrows in a quiver or any number of other alternatives.
The One
12-09-2007, 04:25 AM
So you are saying that if the archer shot 3 arrows:
a 10 on Target 1, and two 9s on target 2
You believe they should receive 9, 9, M?
I believe they should lose their lowest scoring arrow on Target 2, and hence get 10, 9, M
Hannah
12-09-2007, 09:38 AM
So you are saying that if the archer shot 3 arrows:
a 10 on Target 1, and two 9s on target 2
You believe they should receive 9, 9, M?
I believe they should lose their lowest scoring arrow on Target 2, and hence get 10, 9, M
Yup - but only in double-error scenarios. In single error scenarios (ie the archer has just shot an arrow on the wrong target) the rules clearly state that the archer only receives one score per target ie they would be scored as you suggest.
The One
12-09-2007, 04:26 PM
Yup - but only in double-error scenarios. In single error scenarios (ie the archer has just shot an arrow on the wrong target) the rules clearly state that the archer only receives one score per target ie they would be scored as you suggest.
Hmmm... this is getting tricky - I think a double-error scenario is still two single errors which have joined forces and gone in search of the nearest pub.
Is there a judge out there with the official ruling???
Hmmm... this is getting tricky - I think a double-error scenario is still two single errors which have joined forces and gone in search of the nearest pub.
Is there a judge out there with the official ruling???
What's the exact ruling you want?
The One
13-09-2007, 04:23 PM
So you are saying that if the archer shot 3 arrows:
a 10 on Target 1, and two 9s on target 2 (nothing on Target 3)
If you wouldn't mind :)
Hannah
13-09-2007, 05:52 PM
If there was nothing on target 3 (which was added ;)) then this would only be a single error in which case you would be right, they would get 10,9,M.
It would only be (IMO) if there was an arrow on target three (ie that they had shot four arrows) that their highest scoring arrows would be taken out of consideration, to a) ensure there was only three values for the end, and b) to ensure that the archer still scored a miss.
I should jump on the FITA website and try and find the ruling *hohum*
Hannah
13-09-2007, 06:07 PM
Indoor archery FITA rules (http://www.archeryworldcup.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20Book/2006RulesENG_Book3.pdf)
8.6.2.2 If more than the required number of arrows should be found in
the target butt or on the floor near the target butt or in the shooting
lanes, only the three (or six) lowest in value will be scored.
Athletes (or teams) found to repeat this offence may be disqualified.
8.6.2.3 When triple faces are used, arrows may be shot in any order, but
if more than one arrow is shot into the same scoring area, both
(or all) arrows count as part of that end, but only the lowest
value arrow will score. The other arrow, or arrows, in the same
spot will be scored as a miss, or as misses. Any arrow missing
the outermost blue six (6) zone will be scored as a miss.
Indoor archery FITA rules (http://www.archeryworldcup.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20Book/2006RulesENG_Book3.pdf)
8.6.2.2 If more than the required number of arrows should be found in
the target butt or on the floor near the target butt or in the shooting
lanes, only the three (or six) lowest in value will be scored.
Athletes (or teams) found to repeat this offence may be disqualified.
8.6.2.3 When triple faces are used, arrows may be shot in any order, but
if more than one arrow is shot into the same scoring area, both
(or all) arrows count as part of that end, but only the lowest
value arrow will score. The other arrow, or arrows, in the same
spot will be scored as a miss, or as misses. Any arrow missing
the outermost blue six (6) zone will be scored as a miss.
It's really good that people are actually looking at the rules. In many sports participants THINK they know the rules but have seldom looked at a rule book.
Good going everyone:thumb:
johnske
25-09-2007, 10:59 AM
this is covered in the old judges manual (dunno about the new one) and there's been more than one case study.
1st instance, 2 arrows in the same centre: score the lowest arrow only - the one in the higher scoring zone becomes a 'miss'.
2nd instance, 2 arrows in the same centre and there were also 4 arrows shot: there are two mistakes here, so there are two 'penalties' to apply... so we follow the above procedure to write down the highest scoring arrow in the top face as a 'miss' then, we then write down the highest scoring arrow of the remaining 3 arrows as a 'miss' also.
tropicalshot
27-09-2007, 11:45 AM
10 9 miss for recurve
9 9 miss for compund
Clare Barnes
27-09-2007, 12:15 PM
10 9 miss for recurve
9 9 miss for compund
So you didn't shoot the Indoor Nats in Townsville? :)
johnske
27-09-2007, 01:21 PM
So you didn't shoot the Indoor Nats in Townsville? :)Shouldn't that be Rockhampton?
Clare Barnes
27-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Yep, just realised my error - apologies to the north NQers! ;)
johnske
27-09-2007, 02:06 PM
OK, now you've got used to the scenario, here's a variation on the theme for you to think about...
When scoring on a 3-spot face, one archer is found to have shot 4 arrows:
there is one arrow in the 10 and one arrow in the 9 on the top face, and there is one arrow in the 7 and one arrow in the 6 in the next face (the third face has no arrows in it).
What is their score?
Marcus
27-09-2007, 02:16 PM
Would be a 9, 6, M, M
Archangel
27-09-2007, 02:24 PM
I'll be different and say 6,M,M.
He/she/it has shot four arrows and committed three sins -> they lose three of the four arrows.
puddin
27-09-2007, 02:33 PM
I'll be different and say 6,M,M.
He/she/it has shot four arrows and committed three sins -> they lose three of the four arrows.
i would agree with this. as there has been 3 offences it would mean 3 misses.
(feel very sorry for the person that ever does that)
James Park
27-09-2007, 02:35 PM
So you didn't shoot the Indoor Nats in Townsville? :)
Does North Queensland have a different rule?
Clare Barnes
27-09-2007, 02:55 PM
Don't know about different rules, but the long-standing rule about Inner 10 scoring for compounds shooting FITA Indoor rounds hadn't filtered through to quite all of the Indoor Nationals compound competitors yet. :crazy: :D
johnske
27-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Does North Queensland have a different rule?No - but seeing she brought it up, I'll leave it to Clare to respond to that
Sean McKenty
15-02-2008, 09:30 AM
They would be 9,9,0 for both
Pecilius
17-11-2008, 05:57 PM
OK, now you've got used to the scenario, here's a variation on the theme for you to think about...
When scoring on a 3-spot face, one archer is found to have shot 4 arrows:
there is one arrow in the 10 and one arrow in the 9 on the top face, and there is one arrow in the 7 and one arrow in the 6 in the next face (the third face has no arrows in it).
What is their score?
Taking a step-by-step approach:
Step one: taking down score
when u've more than one arrow on a single face, you take the lower/lowest scoring arrow. The extra arrows will be score as M.
Hence archer's score will be 9,6,M,M.
Step 2: when u've another penalty which in this case is having shot more than 3 arrows, the penalty is to take the lower 3 arrows score.
Hence archer's final score for this end is 6,M,M.
This is an example of double-penalty.
In another circumstances, an archer should not shoot more than 3 arrows, even if not all faces have one arrow each.
If you shot one arrow into top and middle face, but your third arrow, suppose to land at the bottom face but landed at the middle face, DO NOT go on to shoot another arrow into the bottom face, else you will face double-penalty. Here, your score will be that of the arrow scored on the top face, the lower scoring arrow on the middle face, and that of the higher scoring arrow on the middle face scoring as Miss.
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