Mid Air Collision

[Stryker]

Just thinking back to the shoot at Morrabbin last week something crossed my mind.

There was one end where i was at full draw and a seagull crossed my site. If i had released and shot the seagull how would this be ruled. Would it be classed as a miss because the arrow has traveled more than 3 meters?

[James Park]

I think you would need the seagull to land within the 3M line. However, Ed might have a comment.

[2Dogs]

Actually I'm curious to hear Ed's reply to.

I've suffered at the hands of the dreaded "The Arrow has been deemed to have been shot" rule. Jacko accidently bumped me at Full draw during a Star causing me to miss. The formentioned ruling was applied and I went from winning the event to 4th....... no surprise there :D

I'd say it would be tough. Miss

As Jim says if the arrow has part of it protruding into the 3m area your ok.

[Ed]

I think you would need the seagull to land within the 3M line. However, Ed might have a comment.

I've considered this before when we had a bird at an Indoor Tournament!!
There is little you can do since the arrow has clearly been shot.
7.4.5.1 doesn't allow it to be re-shot unless, as Jim says, the 3-metre rule stuff applies.
One of the reasons top FITA judges argue is that if you said it was OK to shoot another arrow then it opens up a whole can of worms by archers who want to shoot another arrow for reasons X Y Z, etc.
Sorry - it's been shot!

In your case, deux chiens, I would certainly have put in an appeal since you were clearly interfered with. Don't know how the Jury would have responded but you had nothing to lose - except maybe your $$s!
I once had a case of an archer shooting clout who had shot 57, 58 on the first 2 ends and then a 26 on the third end. He claimed someone had deliberately moved his ground marker. I said he couldn't re-shoot the arrows but he appealed and the Jury allowed him to re-shoot.
Jury of Appeal decisions are never precedent-setting, however - but I must admit to being highly stunned in this case!

[Stryker]

I thought that would be the case. Was talking about it yesterday whilst shooting the field at sherbrooke. Would hate to loose a big comp because of such a case.

[2Dogs]

Ed

Actually what they did was at the completion of 30m, I was asked to shoot another arrow. I shot a 10 and Won the tournament.

Then the "Jury of Making **** Up", went and considered the rule book.

They came back with the ruling that the arrow had been deemed to have been shot. Lost the 10 I shot........ came 4th.

I still say it opens cans of worms, because a Person could deliberatly interfere with someone while shooting. Their reply was that person was be DQ'd for bad sportsmanship. True, but you would have still lost the tournament.

[Marcus]

This happened at the Silver Cup last year twice. It was deemed to be shot so tough luck.

[The One]

Don't see there's much there can be done. If a seagull gets in your way, then it's still all good if the seagull (and arrow) land in the target :) If not, you should have had your eye on the surrounding conditions ;)

[burt666]

i think an arrow would just go through a bird really, speciallt if coming out of a compound.... i think birds tend to have light bone structures, so they can flight in the first place...

[2Dogs]

So if the Seagull sat on some arrows on the Target..... would you stop shooting?


Not I :rofl:

[reversehaven]

i think an arrow would just go through a bird really, speciallt if coming out of a compound.... i think birds tend to have light bone structures, so they can flight in the first place...

hmm. i wouldn't think so..

well, there again, if you report someone for having interfered with your shot, and it's found to have been true and the person disqualified, I think it isn't fair or worth your time complaining if you didn't get to re-shoot the arrow. Say i know i'm losing. not worth my competing anyway. And I decide i don't like you. and you have a good chance of winning. So I disqualify myself but at the same time, handicap you for one arrow.

there again, if we allow that to happen, a lot of people will come up with some lame excuse saying that something affected them, someone's bow light shone into their eyes etc and then they want their arrow re-shot.

[The One]

What next, though? I got distracted by their limb moving close to my line of shot and shot a 7.

Say someone gets purposely nudged on the line and shoots a 9. Do they get to reshoot the arrow? What if they don't want to reshoot the arrow in case they got less ont he lnext shot? A lot of it quickly becomes 'he said she said', and very difficult to judge correctly.

[burt666]

So if the Seagull sat on some arrows on the Target..... would you stop shooting?


Not I :rofl:

:rofl: yeah, that's natural selection for ya! :p

[Hannah]

well, there again, if you report someone for having interfered with your shot, and it's found to have been true and the person disqualified, I think it isn't fair or worth your time complaining if you didn't get to re-shoot the arrow. Say i know i'm losing. not worth my competing anyway. And I decide i don't like you. and you have a good chance of winning. So I disqualify myself but at the same time, handicap you for one arrow.
I s'pose that is the whole idea of having people grouped in terms of skill. There isn't likely to be so much of a difference (or your reputations) that it would be worth doing that. The only real way to stop that would be to have people standing a held out stabilizer apart so that any movement would be noticable. But the cost would be prohibitive to running an event.

[Peter King]

I s'pose that is the whole idea of having people grouped in terms of skill. There isn't likely to be so much of a difference (or your reputations) that it would be worth doing that. The only real way to stop that would be to have people standing a held out stabilizer apart so that any movement would be noticable. But the cost would be prohibitive to running an event.
You make a good point. I recall a situation in Brisbane..2003 Nationals I think. After an ordinary 1st day, I was going OK at 90m until I had to duck a swinging stabiliser. The resultant 5 left me with a 330 for 90m. OldDog will remember as, having witnessed the event, he swapped places with me as being a lefty he didn't have to look at anything coming his way, although he felt the odd breeze on his neck.
The point of this one is "what, if anything, can an archer do in this case?'
The interference was not deliberate but material.

[The One]

The point of this one is "what, if anything, can an archer do in this case?'

IMO grit your teeth and bear it. At our nationals this year, I was shooting between two archers. The one behind me kept knocking me with the arrows in his quiver every now and then, and the guy in front walked through my quiver on his way off the line whilst I was at full draw almost every end. I asked them to do something about it, but it still kept happening by accident once or twice after that. I suppose I could have complained to the judge, but who really wants to get a reputation of trying to get others disqualified...

[reversehaven]

I s'pose that is the whole idea of having people grouped in terms of skill. There isn't likely to be so much of a difference (or your reputations) that it would be worth doing that. The only real way to stop that would be to have people standing a held out stabilizer apart so that any movement would be noticable. But the cost would be prohibitive to running an event.

hm. grouping people according to skill is very new in singapore. or at least, unheard of. I just read the thread on it, and i think it's a good idea. though us singaporeans as we are probably might not be too thrilled about it. heh. I guess that's life. marcus is right. there'll always be someone who'd complain.

having them standing even 1m apart would be just about impossible in singapore, due to the space constraint. After all, we have less than ten (or i think maybe even less than five) outdoor ranges and even fewer indoor ranges. Most schools have their own makeshift ranges though, and big fields large enough to hold such tournaments with people standing even a metre apart would be rare.

well, i don't know if i mentioned this before. I almost hit the local indoor record for 18m. I'm not sure if there's a physical record, but hearsay says the record is 281/300. I missed it by two points cuz of the leftie behind me. he had a super exaggerated bow swing, such that my friend told me to be careful in case i got hit. He stepped into my lane almost every single time, and my lane is only like 40cm wide. just enough for one person to stand in. Then the most frustrating part is when he released, he'd swing his bow(and his whole body) and his quiver hit mine on two occasions just a split second before i clicked. Of course I lost the chance for a possible 10 or 9, since my hand moved just before release. It hit a red both times, and of course i felt like swinging my stabiliser over to whack him.

well i decided to be nice and not call for the judge. i can't get my points back anyway, and he didn't seem like he did it on purpose. besides, i didn't expect to win. I didn't wanna get him disqualified and make some enemies out of it. I finished two points behind a FITA blue. I got my black anyway. ah well.

[johnske]

What next, though? I got distracted by their limb moving close to my line of shot and shot a 7.

Say someone gets purposely nudged on the line and shoots a 9. Do they get to reshoot the arrow? What if they don't want to reshoot the arrow in case they got less ont he lnext shot? A lot of it quickly becomes 'he said she said', and very difficult to judge correctly.This situation simply shouldn't arise, that's the reason why we have rule 7.1.1.7 ... A minimum space of 80cm per athlete will be guaranteed. Where athletes in wheelchair are competing, additional space will be necessary.

If the field is too narrow to allow the required 80cm per archer, we then consider rule 7.5.1 One, two, three or four athletes may shoot on the same target butt simultaneously.. yeah, it slows things down a bit, but it's not a race...

[Hannah]

This situation simply shouldn't arise, that's the reason why we have rule 7.1.1.7 ... A minimum space of 80cm per athlete will be guaranteed. Where athletes in wheelchair are competing, additional space will be necessary.

If the field is too narrow to allow the required 80cm per archer, we then consider rule 7.5.1 One, two, three or four athletes may shoot on the same target butt simultaneously.. yeah, it slows things down a bit, but it's not a race...
Trouble is, it still doesn't take into consideration someone doing it purposefully...I don't believe it should, because it is hard to 'prove' intention, but nevertheless, this is unaccounted for. Likewise, a bird flying in the path of the arrow and changing its direction is still unaccounted for. Watching your surroundings is one thing, but it tends to forget that birds can swoop and literally drop out of the air from seemingly nowhere.

[Stryker]

Trouble is, it still doesn't take into consideration someone doing it purposefully...I don't believe it should, because it is hard to 'prove' intention, but nevertheless, this is unaccounted for. Likewise, a bird flying in the path of the arrow and changing its direction is still unaccounted for. Watching your surroundings is one thing, but it tends to forget that birds can swoop and literally drop out of the air from seemingly nowhere.

Exactly Hannah.. When you are drawing you see other things around you but when you take aim are you looking at the Gold, or the trees to the left or right. Outside and unforeseen interference can happen as Marcus said and maybe the rules should take this into consideration.

As far as being blinded by the sun when shooting and arrow and wanting to shoot one in its place, thats taking it too far.

[The One]

This situation simply shouldn't arise, that's the reason why we have rule 7.1.1.7 ... A minimum space of 80cm per athlete will be guaranteed. Where athletes in wheelchair are competing, additional space will be necessary.

Yes, shouldn't arise, however they were very friendly...

[johnske]

IMO grit your teeth and bear it. At our nationals this year, I was shooting between two archers. The one behind me kept knocking me with the arrows in his quiver every now and then, and the guy in front walked through my quiver on his way off the line whilst I was at full draw almost every end. I asked them to do something about it, but it still kept happening by accident once or twice after that. I suppose I could have complained to the judge, but who really wants to get a reputation of trying to get others disqualified...The point is that the judges should have inspected the field and its setup prior to the event, and they should have informed the organizing committee that there was insufficient space for archers on the line and if this couldn't be corrected, archers must shoot in details (AB/CD, A, B, C, ... etc) so as to rectify the situation. No need to complain about the other archers - complain about the field itself :thumb:

[grantwomack]

Bringing this up again, I found this compilation on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNdiDUKIXfo

[Stryker]

Nice find!!

[frommy]

Liked the last one and can relate to it.

Our club course is about 500m at the closest point to Campbelltown golf course, and we regularly watch crows fly into our vicinity with a golf ball in beak. We have a collection of golf balls in a drawer at the club.

I was on the mower last weekend clearing our overflow car parking area for a tournament on Sunday and hit three golf balls. They fly like a two iron shot from the mower blades. :p

[Bottom Dweller]

Wayne Paget from Neath Archers had his sighting golf ball stolen by a crow at the Fred Herbert Clout last weekend. Very funny.

Made no difference to his score ;-)

[frommy]

Wayne Paget from Neath Archers had his sighting golf ball stolen by a crow at the Fred Herbert Clout last weekend. Very funny.

Made no difference to his score ;-)

There were plenty lying around our course today when Wayne shot, so many cheap replacements available. :D