Arrow-hole marking

[grantwomack]

From the most recent judges newsletter on the FITA website:

A problem of a different sort, but still related to the way holes are marked, occurs
when compound archers mark their arrow holes (mainly at 50 and 30 meters) with
very thick dark markers. The marks left on the target very quickly turn into a dark
spot in the middle of the target, which eventually helps the archers aim.
The judges should replace target faces in which the holes have been marked with
these thick markers, and should warn the archers not to do so anymore. These
dark spots give unfair advantage to these archers over the other competitors on the
field. A good solution to this problem may be advising the team captains at their
meeting that these marks would not be allowed.

I find this to be a very interesting comment. How many people here would find a benefit to having a darkening gradient towards the middle of the target? I know I certainly wouldn't, since I want to be able to see gold through the sight, not black.

[Peter King]

There is a precedent here in Indoor. Definitely was an advantage if marked in the X

[The One]

I think it's a pretty definate advantage, and should not be allowed.

[Sandy Hancock]

It could also help with aiming off if the marks were not in the centre.
So yes, it's probably cheating, and no doubt premeditated in some cases.
The marks should only be visible when standing at the target for scoring.

[Jim Reid]

I think the 'marking holes' concept is antiquated and a waste of time and effort. In the years of marking I've never once seen a bounce out and then an arrow hole traced and a score awarded. I am not saying it has never happened, but think the number of times it is called upon does not justify the need for it. Like the arrows colliding in mid air, or a loose fletch, or whatever, that very rare bounce is just tough luck. Scrap marking arrow holes, it's a pain in the butt, and people don't do it properly, nearly always a few unmarked holes, and what if yout 'bouce out' came out of an already marked hole, you don't score it anyway. Get rid of marking arrow holes!!!

[mrlogan]

I think you will find it happens quite frequently with the low poundage junior recurvers.

Particularly at the longer distances.

[The One]

Don't think it needs to be scrapped when shooting at some places, certain types of target necessitate marking.

If all archers are happy not to mark the target, then that's cool, but they cop the penalty if there is a bounce out/pass through. But if at least one archer on the target wants to mark, then have the decency to help them mark it.

[Archangel]

I think the 'marking holes' concept is antiquated and a waste of time and effort. In the years of marking I've never once seen a bounce out and then an arrow hole traced and a score awarded. I am not saying it has never happened, but think the number of times it is called upon does not justify the need for it. Like the arrows colliding in mid air, or a loose fletch, or whatever, that very rare bounce is just tough luck. Scrap marking arrow holes, it's a pain in the butt, and people don't do it properly, nearly always a few unmarked holes, and what if yout 'bouce out' came out of an already marked hole, you don't score it anyway. Get rid of marking arrow holes!!!
I agree.
The only times I've ever seen where marking would have been useful are passthroughs, which almost always happen at 30m on a top target, by which point the centre is a total mess and you could never tell which hole it came from. If my memory hasn't failed me totally on one occasion it happened to a top compounder who ended up shooting a 1400 - he was awarded the arrow. The solution was pretty obvious given that basically all of them were in the ten anyway ;-)

[Liam]

Yeah, I don't get it. Today shooting at the silver cup 9 times out of 10 we were marking holes that were already marked because after a 20m 4 spot field target has had a few arrows through you may as well make your little tick on the entire X.

[Dr Phil]

If judges want to play games with the hole marking process then make sure they change faces as soon as their is any doubt as to the integrity of the hole marking system. Once a couple of holes are overlapped, change the face straight away. I had a particularly officious judge do this to me at SQAS indoor one year. I was inside out clean after 20 or so arrows shooting ACEs and he took the face down as he claimed if I had a pass through(stramit), he would not be able to tell where it impacted (after suggestion by 2 flogs who incidentally beat me by 2 points for the day:fist: )If there is to be a pass through or bounce out from an area of a face that is torn up, it is the fault of the judges. I am sure the organisers of the event will love forking out for new faces every second end at 30:thumb: .

[reversehaven]

If judges want to play games with the hole marking process then make sure they change faces as soon as their is any doubt as to the integrity of the hole marking system. Once a couple of holes are overlapped, change the face straight away. I had a particularly officious judge do this to me at SQAS indoor one year. I was inside out clean after 20 or so arrows shooting ACEs and he took the face down as he claimed if I had a pass through(stramit), he would not be able to tell where it impacted (after suggestion by 2 flogs who incidentally beat me by 2 points for the day:fist: )If there is to be a pass through or bounce out from an area of a face that is torn up, it is the fault of the judges. I am sure the organisers of the event will love forking out for new faces every second end at 30:thumb: .

haha. i'd think for top level shooters, they should. after a round of 30 arrows. I mean for single face. for triple face, you'd have had only 10 + arrows on each target. Not including sighters. not entirely critical unless your competitors have been 'X' ing their way through. like for compounders.

[dilligaf]

I think the 'marking holes' concept is antiquated and a waste of time and effort. In the years of marking I've never once seen a bounce out and then an arrow hole traced and a score awarded. I am not saying it has never happened, but think the number of times it is called upon does not justify the need for it. Like the arrows colliding in mid air, or a loose fletch, or whatever, that very rare bounce is just tough luck. Scrap marking arrow holes, it's a pain in the butt, and people don't do it properly, nearly always a few unmarked holes, and what if yout 'bouce out' came out of an already marked hole, you don't score it anyway. Get rid of marking arrow holes!!!

I must admit in not shooting FITA competition much but i did shoot the State field and was exposed to the making system for the first time in over 20 years of shooting and all i could think of was what a waste of time you wouldn't find a hole that wasn't marked anyway or it would take so long it would hold up the shoot over what a couple of points get over it its only a game we don't play for sheep stations. Yes i am competitive and i like to shoot good scores but i will not cry if i have to take a miss sure i will be upset hey that life it sux then you die.

[Erika]

its only a game we don't play for sheep stations.

Some of us are.

[2Dogs]

It's pretty simple.... mark your holes, or if you get a pass through or bounce out your stuffed.

And having the 10 area darkened makes a big difference IMO. I've shot FITA's with the 10 ring coloured black....and you definately home in on it ;)

[bigfella]

It's pretty simple.... mark your holes, or if you get a pass through or bounce out your stuffed.

And having the 10 area darkened makes a big difference IMO. I've shot FITA's with the 10 ring coloured black....and you definately home in on it ;)

Hey 2Dogs, I've noticed that your posts are substantially more controlled and reasonable lately. Is this because you are now a wannabe judge and that you now think you have to set a good example.. especially in the Judging Case Study area?? ;)

[Liam]

I must admit in not shooting FITA competition much but i did shoot the State field and was exposed to the making system for the first time in over 20 years of shooting and all i could think of was what a waste of time you wouldn't find a hole that wasn't marked anyway or it would take so long it would hold up the shoot over what a couple of points get over it its only a game we don't play for sheep stations. Yes i am competitive and i like to shoot good scores but i will not cry if i have to take a miss sure i will be upset hey that life it sux then you die.

In a similar fashion, in LOTS of competitions 10 points is the first 5 or more places.

[Ed]

It's pretty simple.... mark your holes, or if you get a pass through or bounce out your stuffed.

And having the 10 area darkened makes a big difference IMO. I've shot FITA's with the 10 ring coloured black....and you definately home in on it ;)

Under 7.6.2.4 it is a requirement that "all arrow holes in the scoring zone will be suitably marked." It is not a question of judges playing games - THIS RULE IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF ARCHERS' SCORES -for goodness sake. Unlike Jim, I have witnessed quite a number of bounce outs and pass-throughs. It doesn't affect a judge one iota if archers don't mark holes. In field, under 9.6.1.1 "the group of archers will not leave the target before all holes in the scoring zone are marked." It is about time that some of you realised that judges are not there to penalise archers but to protect their scores wherever possible whilst making sure the rules are adhered to and that no one has an unfair advantage - by blacking out the centre at indoors for example!

[Jim Reid]

Hi Ed

judges aint to blame, nor the archers, we are all just playing by the rules.

just that this rule sucks for 95% of archers.

95% of archers don't take it THAT seriously.

in field where we all share the same target, we have to mark as others following may not agree to not marking, but in target where all on the target agree to not mark the holes and suffer the consequences some judges insist the holes must be marked. What is the ruling on this?

[dilligaf]

In a similar fashion, in LOTS of competitions 10 points is the first 5 or more places.

It still only a game so what if you didn't get the gold silver or bronze. I would feel really disappointed if that was because of a pass through i would be more upset that in a competition the club used inferior backstops which allow my arrow to go through the target. As for the medal the next day nobody cares anyway.
What do you do with them anyway. I have heaps of meadals and trophies sitting in a cardboard box in the shed somewhere so if someone is in need.

[Ed]

Hi Ed

judges aint to blame, nor the archers, we are all just playing by the rules.

just that this rule sucks for 95% of archers.

95% of archers don't take it THAT seriously.

in field where we all share the same target, we have to mark as others following may not agree to not marking, but in target where all on the target agree to not mark the holes and suffer the consequences some judges insist the holes must be marked. What is the ruling on this?

The ruling is as stated above, Jim. I certainly would not force people to mark their arrow holes. If they didn't I would tell them they would have to accept the consequences and then just get on with it. Other judges may take a different stance but personally I don't believe it's worth pushing it if archers don't want to do it. The indoor thing is very different though.

[The One]

I have no problems with people not marking target if they don't want to - I never do, but do it in field regardless. Just because some people may not get bounce outs or pass-throughs, others may. They don't get a chance to mark the targets until after they've shot on it.

[Ozzy]

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eh ? :o
3 identical posts on 3 threads ? WTF ?


EDITED, Dbjac: To remove links.

[Sandy Hancock]

eh ? :o
3 identical posts on 3 threads ? WTF ?
It's called Spam, Ozzy :roll:
It will be gone soon.

[johnske]

Well field is a totally different kettle of fish - you need to mark there for the benefit of following archers. But target is a little different, I shot my first FITA in 1960 something and every one ever since has followed the same principle - right at the start someone on my target (usually me) will ask "do you want to mark the holes?" and generally the answer is "no, we're not shooting for sheep stations", so they're not marked.

Sometimes you get novices who don't know why the holes are marked and i take pains to explain the consequences of not marking the holes, and if they also say 'no' - they're not marked, however if there is only one archer on that target that says "yes" then the only right and decent thing to do is just to get on with ensuring that all the holes are marked (i.e. without arguing the toss about it). :D

[harvey]

[QUOTE=Jim Reid;273383]I think the 'marking holes' concept is antiquated and a waste of time and effort. In the years of marking I've never once seen a bounce out and then an arrow hole traced and a score awarded. Scrap marking arrow holes, it's a pain in the butt, and people don't do it properly, nearly always a few unmarked holes, and what if yout 'bouce out' came out of an already marked hole, you don't score it anyway. Get rid of marking arrow holes!!!

haha...well mr jim, i would put it otherwise based on my opinion. I recently shot at a Singapore Outdoor Target Championships, well the board was too soft for most of the compound archers, we ended up looking for tear holes so that we could get our marks...most of the arrows are in the grass, 10m away from the target butts...boy i hated that....by the end of the day, all of us went home with lots of bareshafts in the quiver....hahhaa

[Bottom Dweller]

For those that still think marking arrows holes is a waste of time consider the following two incidents, both occuring at the NSW State Target in windy conditions using foam butts:

1) Archer finds that one of his arrows has bounced out. Calls Judge. Judge finds two unmarked holes, one in high scoring zone where the archers other arrows are and one in a lower scoring zone. Archer gets the lower value.

2) Archer sees his arrow hit target then cart wheel behind target. Archer initially thinks he has hit the side of the butt outside scoring zone, but calls Judge anyway. Judge can't find any unmarked holes outside scoring zone. Another archer on target notices an unusual tear mark near the 6/5 zone. Judge deems it is the mark of the arrow that cart wheeled, as all other holes have been marked correctly and this is the only one with no mark. Judge score the arrow a 5 given point were arrow hit the face can be identified by the tear.

Two real examples, two different results. All because of marking/non marking arrow holes.

BTW these were not low powered bows or inexperienced archers.

Bounce outs and pass throughs do happen, so mark your holes ;-)