Break after practice

[James Park]

In many of our tournaments we get a 15 minute break after practice prior to the first scoring end.
Why is this?
I know it is not required, and that the archers hate it, so why is it done?
FITA does not require it except for World Championships (we checked).

[2Dogs]

Seems to have developed from 1996 to 2003 somewhere.

We never used to do it.

Just seems to get copied out of habit by organisers.

I hate it.

[bbird]

I'd have to agree with both of you here.

I detest having the 15 minute break after "practice". Though, I'd prefer to use the term "warm-up".

I feel it goes against the thinking of most other sports whereby you begin the competition straight after the warm up.

It would make more sense to do this at our competitions as well.

[The One]

Recently we've gone for just having 2 sighting ends and straight into scoring. No time to cool down, keeps the flow going. We used to do 20-45min practice with a break (again, didn't know it wasn't necessary), but it seemed that few archers did many of the 4-5 ends that usually get done in that time, and 2 sighters gets it through much faster, giving the wind less time to get up.

[James Park]

Yes, two ends plus no break should be what we do. It is plenty.
Interestingly, my impression is that the judges and officials think it is mandatory to have longer for practice and to have a break - however, it is clearly not mandatory.

[bbird]

Yes, two ends plus no break should be what we do. It is plenty.


That's exactly what we used to do in the late 70's and early 80's - 2 ends for "practice" and then into competition.

Certainly the way to go IMHO. ;)

[James Park]

Aside from keeping the archers happy (which is, after all, the reason we do these things), it also assists in getting into the scoring prior to the wind coming up in many cases and hence should see higher scores.

[Marcus]

I think we should just drop practises full stop.
If you can't turn it on from the first arrow tough ****.
Did the french give the english practise arrows? (OK technically yes in some cases LOL)

Straight in. Best sight settings win.
This is only because without the practise ends I would have shot 14 points higher at 90m yesterday. LOL. I'm sure my view will change next FITA.

[Hannah]

Just to throw a bat amongst the pidgeons (stupid phrase!), whilst I agree that having the break can be irritating, if they have it at world champs, and it is mandatory, why would we be railing to change things in Aust?

[Ed]

Not all judges think it is mandatory! Rule 3.19.1 covers practice (haven't we had this thread before?) and the minimum 20 mins, maximum 45 mins applies to all days "of the Qualification Round" as does the 15 minute break before competition. It needs to be stressed that these rules apply mainly to World Championships and major tournaments. Most of our events in Australia would not fall into these categories (except Nationals & State??). The rule is simply there to allow for faces to be changed in the main.

We should always apply the section which states "At other FITA events (i.e., those NOT having Qualification/Elimination/Finals Rounds) practice will be for a maximum of 45 minutes but may be less (the Organising Committe detemines the length) AND THE COMPETITION WILL START AS SOON AS POSSIBLE."
I would argue that if there is no need to change the faces on which practice has been conducted then simply start the comp straightaway.

We don't change Indoor Faces after practice (unless Jim's already shot out the centre) - we just get straight on with it - what's the difference?


Yes, two ends plus no break should be what we do. It is plenty.
Interestingly, my impression is that the judges and officials think it is mandatory to have longer for practice and to have a break - however, it is clearly not mandatory.

[Peter King]

Agree we should go straight into scoring after the nominated official practice ends, but don't agree with changes to a reasonable practice period.

It is not uncommon to find sights need to be altered when going from venue to venue. I can think of occasions when a number of us have agreed we had to add/subtract a metre or so at some fields, and drift at some venues takes abit of getting used to. In such a case, visitors would be at a disadvantage compared to home archers if practice is too limited.

The current QRE rules clearly require 20 to 45 minutes practice. If we have a problem with the start and sun/wind coming up, let's start earlier.

[Eberbachl]

It shouldn't be called practice. You should have practised before the competition ;)

It should be called warm-up, and shooting should commence straight after it.

I agree - two ends should be plenty to warm up.

:thumb:

[2Dogs]

The current QRE rules clearly require 20 to 45 minutes practice

3 ends practice takes approx 20min.

Geez Peter, you wouldn't have survived the 1980's :D...... Nationals, 2 ends practice then score.

HTFU Old Man :D

[puddin]

i agree here the 15 min break isnt needed unless the organisers have practice faces that need changing. and by the rule of the shoot will comence as soon as possible, having the 15 min break for no reason at events uis breaking rules not sticking to them.

i like how most NZ events have gone back to just 2 ends then scoring

[Eberbachl]

Just to throw a bat amongst the pidgeons (stupid phrase!),

...err it's a cat, not a bat.

:p

[Clare Barnes]

Just to throw a bat amongst the pidgeons

...and pigeons not pidgeons... :D

[Peter King]

3 ends practice takes approx 20min.

Geez Peter, you wouldn't have survived the 1980's :D...... Nationals, 2 ends practice then score.

HTFU Old Man :D
Yes I would have...and have done so plenty of times. In fact, in the last year or so.

I have seen the DOS allow 2 ends in conditions so atrocious that many couldn't keep their arrows on the target. ....clearly he wanted to go home.

Nevertheless, the QRE rules are clear.

Also, I hear that we are looking for compound shooters to shoot good scores...why take away practice/warmup or whatever the semantics?

[James Park]

Also, I hear that we are looking for compound shooters to shoot good scores...why take away practice/warmup or whatever the semantics?
Just to try to beat the wind.

[Peter King]

Start earlier

[James Park]

Start earlier
Yes, that as well.

[AFJAMES]

Your body needs some warm up ends to get in the feel, and to tell the body that you are about to shoot arrows. Its just like any other muscle memory sport, you need to warm up the muscles you are going to use. In golf the pros will spend some time warming up before they walk onto the first tee, they aren't trying to improve their swing, they are just telling their body that it is time to hit a golf ball, so lets get going.
Archery should be the same, you shouldn't worry about a target being 90m away, you should just be going through your process to tell the body its time shoot arrows.
My idea would be have 2 5 minute ends, shoot as many arrows as you like and then thats it. Then its time to start scoring.

[The One]

Your body needs some warm up ends to get in the feel, and to tell the body that you are about to shoot arrows. Its just like any other muscle memory sport, you need to warm up the muscles you are going to use. In golf the pros will spend some time warming up before they walk onto the first tee, they aren't trying to improve their swing, they are just telling their body that it is time to hit a golf ball, so lets get going.
Archery should be the same, you shouldn't worry about a target being 90m away, you should just be going through your process to tell the body its time shoot arrows.
My idea would be have 2 5 minute ends, shoot as many arrows as you like and then thats it. Then its time to start scoring.

5 minute ends are not FITA legal.

There should be blank butts for warm up before the start of the sighters, this should allow the body to acclimatise plenty!

[tel]

I could be missing something here but this not the first time someone has mentioned shooting arrows to warm up. If there is a need to warm up for shooting then surely that would mean needing to warm up before you warm up....where do you draw the line? (incidently I'm not taking the p***!)

[Ed]

5 minute ends are not FITA legal.

There should be blank butts for warm up before the start of the sighters, this should allow the body to acclimatise plenty!

Not so for practice. The rules say nothing about the actual timings or number of arrows which can be shot during practice ends; rather they just allude to the total amount of practice time. It has become customary to shoot practice ends with the same timing as scoring ends but the OC and DOS are not obliged to do this. There has to be some statement from the DOS re timing for practice ends merely in the interests both of safety and for the protection of archers' arrows - 3 archers practising on the same butt in a 10 minute time period could do heaps of damage to their own and others' shafts!

[Brocky]

Are they not all practice ends. I think we should score all ends starting with scoring arrows then state OK THIS IS NOW PRACTICE & see what happens to the end result.

[The One]

Not so for practice. The rules say nothing about the actual timings or number of arrows which can be shot during practice ends; rather they just allude to the total amount of practice time. It has become customary to shoot practice ends with the same timing as scoring ends but the OC and DOS are not obliged to do this. There has to be some statement from the DOS re timing for practice ends merely in the interests both of safety and for the protection of archers' arrows - 3 archers practising on the same butt in a 10 minute time period could do heaps of damage to their own and others' shafts!

Hmmm...that's kinda odd... :???:

[James Park]

At one of the Victorian State Target Championships a few years ago three of us thought we would see how many arrows we could get in the target in the allotted four minutes for one of the practice ends at 90M. It was 12 each - then we ran out of arrows, not time. (And they were all 8s or better).

[James Park]

Clare has a good story about numbers of arrows in practice ends.

[Ed]

Clare has a good story about numbers of arrows in practice ends.

Tell us your story, Clare:D

[Jim Reid]

Just get on with it. 2 practice ends of 6 arrows and straight into it. The 3 arrow ends 'after lunch' are a pain too and you lose your rythme, 6 arrow ends all day long and have 2 'smaller' targets out to the six zone, for the top archers to avoid arrow damage at the closer distances

As far as warming up muscles are concerned, use stretch band, streatch exercises, jog, whatever it takes for you personally.

Also scores should be tallied and ready to announce much quicker after the shoot. I suggest 30 minutes max should become the norm while EVERYONE helps clear the field and pack everything away including their own gear etc. It is becoming more like an hour after these shoots before winners are announced, that is not necessary or acceptable. Whole day is being drawn out like one of those academy award acceptance speeches.

Let's fast track EVERYTHING and get on with it. I'm sure it would be much better enjoyed and patronised in it wasn't such a drag.

What do others think?

[Finno]

In many of our tournaments we get a 15 minute break after practice prior to the first scoring end.
Why is this?
It is for those of us who meditate prior to shooting the comp.
Feel the arrow Jim!
I know it is not required, and that the archers hate it, so why is it done?
FITA does not require it except for World Championships (we checked).
So during practice you have an equipment 'issue'. When do you fix it?

[James Park]

So during practice you have an equipment 'issue'. When do you fix it?
That is an interesting question. I think we need Ed to tell us what the process is.

[Ed]

That is an interesting question. I think we need Ed to tell us what the process is.

Personally, assuming we are going straight to scoring ends after practice, I'd call an equipment failure as soon as the signal sounded to shoot the first scoring arrow. I've actually witnessed this on a number of occasions. Even with the 15 minute break before shooting I've still had people call an EF on the very first end - and quite legitimately. Let's face it, archers do not like to have equipment failures - it throws them out of rhythm - so it's only done if you have to. Nowadays I find that we generally get through 2 day tournaments with hardly any EFs. Last year's Indoor in Vic we had 150+ archers shooting over 3 flights on 2 days with no EFs at all and this pattern has been around for the last few years outdoors too.
Remember also that you are allowed 15 minutes to make up your unshot arrows for EACH equipment failure.

[James Park]

Ed,
My interpretation of that is then:
If you have an equipment failure during practice, you may miss out on practice ends, but (assuming you can fix it within the allowed time) you will not miss out on scoring arrows.
That is: you will not get 'equipment failure time' during the practice period, and will not be able to make up practice arrows missed due to failures during practice.
Does that seem correct? (It does seem logical).

[Ed]

Ed,
My interpretation of that is then:
If you have an equipment failure during practice, you may miss out on practice ends, but (assuming you can fix it within the allowed time) you will not miss out on scoring arrows.
That is: you will not get 'equipment failure time' during the practice period, and will not be able to make up practice arrows missed due to failures during practice.
Does that seem correct? (It does seem logical).

Yes, Jim. EF can only be claimed during scoring time.

[Jim Reid]

Nowadays I find that we generally get through 2 day tournaments with hardly any EFs. Last year's Indoor in Vic we had 150+ archers shooting over 3 flights on 2 days with no EFs at all and this pattern has been around for the last few years outdoors too.

Ah!....remember the good old days of kevlar strings. I miss those 'poker' opportunities, and nipping down to HJ's for a burger, while the next kevlar went on..........SNAP!......oops, sorry, wasn't poker it was Snap, and it wasn't a burger it was a bloody nuisance. :silly:

Nobody has taken me up on the 'fast tracking' post, I find that a bit of a worry.

[mike]

Its interesting here in WA that clubs seem to have an obsession with only allowing a certain number of arrows in practice (often only 3 - what is with that???), rather than time. I've always shot FITA rules so I delighted in shooting as many as I like and then thoroughly enjoyed the ensuing argument.

I pretty much always shot as many good arrows as I could fit into the 4 mins. the 6 arrow thing only applies once scoring starts so i don't see the problem.

I agree with the 2 ends then straight in to it. Even 3 ends then straight in, either way, going straight in saves 15mins which you appreciate when you get to go home in daylight (often a problem with the sort of awards ceremonies we get)