Development Squad

[Sir Slick]

There seems to be a strong willingness from archers to have one of these.......there has also been this willingness in the past and they have fallen flat.

When I was asked if I would consider standing for the Coaching Convenor role this year I talked to a number of people about some of the things I would like to institute. This included the establishment of an 'Elite Development Programme' (shied away from the term squad after talking to several people). I was prepared to set this programme up and manage it if necessary. After some talk though I found out that

a. I wouldnt really have the support of the elite level coaches who no longer want to put the time in with ANZ after past bad experiences
b. Probably wouldnt get the financial support required
c. Probably wouldnt get the commitment of the archers required

Essentially the programme would take in archers who wanted to develop to a high level and could meet certain selection criteria and who were prepared to 'contract' themselves to the squad. It also would include the elimination of members who were not putting in the effort or were not improving (yearly culling). It was going to be a limited programme - certainly not open to everyone (I did draft a quite comprehensive document on this).

It became quite obvious to me that despite all the talk around, this programme would likely fall flat again.

My suggestion, if the archers are very serious about the establishment of such a programme, go through the Athletes Representative or Coaching Convenor and suggest at the next board meeting to get outside assistance from a sport that has truly developed (rowing would be my choice), get their development manager to come in, take a look at Archery NZ and provide independant guidance on where to go so that we do it right and the programme stays in operation. At the end of the day although archery skills are unique to us, development programmes and athlete administration are not and we could probably learn a lot from an independant review conducted by rowing or Bike NZ etc.

Would be interested in everyones opinions.

[The One]

To be honest, I'm starting to get a little bit pissed off with everyone telling me that it won't work because some people in the past weren't committed and I'm obviously going to be the same.

Yes, I do think we need outside assistance, that would certainly be beneficial. Pay to fly someone to a think tank meeting so they can nut out some ideas over a day or two.

[Jay.G]

I can see the point about pass failures sort of been a repellant for development but I really hope its not just another excuse.
You cannot say that the present situation will be a repeat of the past and even if it might turn out to be that way, you shouldn't give up, or at least the organization shouldn't. Its our sport and if we are willing to let it die because of some bad past experiences then I guess that's the end.

I agree on the point of independed assistance though.

[Archangel]

Personally I don't see past failure as a reason for such a thing not happening at present. The main reason it hasn't happened so far is that nobody is willing to actually organise it, drive it and make it happen. Several of our top coaches have expressed willingness to be involved, but only in a technical position; they won't run it. A vocal minority of archers are very keen for a squad to happen, but aren't willing to actually organise it.

Don't get me wrong, all of the above may be very well justified, but that doesn't help the reality of the situation. All Indians and no Chiefs is not going to work.

The second most important thing that it's going to need is some really hard-assed "coach" type person. Not necessarily a coach in our traditional archery sense, but someone who makes sure that people are sticking to their training plans and generally beating them into shape as athletes and not just archers. I haven't seen a lot of evidence that there's anybody who's actually doing such a thing - if you held a gun to my head I might point at Bernie and suggest he's probably the only one.

And finally, we'd need committed archers. Some of the archers showing the most commitment at the moment are _not_ being actively coached, but their results are still consistently good. Colour me surprised.
Let's give the archers the benefit of the doubt though, and assume that when faced with this squad they will magically become more committed. Then if the two points above are addressed, it might have a chance of working.

[flyboy_su27]

If this 'Elite Development Programme' was indeed set up. Would it mean archers "gathering" to one place for training? We all know that the majority of good archers are in Auckland. What would this mean for archers based down south? Would it be a permanent set-up in Auckland or would it be "correspondence", allowing archers to report on their development every week or so and then coming together once in awhile for training.

[burt666]

If this 'Elite Development Programme' was indeed set up. Would it mean archers "gathering" to one place for training? We all know that the majority of good archers are in Auckland. What would this mean for archers based down south? Would it be a permanent set-up in Auckland or would it be "correspondence", allowing archers to report on their development every week or so and then coming together once in awhile for training.

that would be in the line of the second option i guess.... absolutely_no_way we can finance the first one....

[Sir Slick]

If this 'Elite Development Programme' was indeed set up. Would it mean archers "gathering" to one place for training? We all know that the majority of good archers are in Auckland. What would this mean for archers based down south? Would it be a permanent set-up in Auckland or would it be "correspondence", allowing archers to report on their development every week or so and then coming together once in awhile for training.

I had the intention that it would be a combination of correspondence and "get togethers". The get togethers would be rotated around various venues throughout NZ dependant on location of programme members approx once every couple of months for a weekend and a twice yearly intensive 1 week training camp, with archers required to submit documentation, journals etc to coaches once a fortnight. Reports would be written on athletes once every six months by the coaches, with comments from squad manager and recommendations as to future inclusion or expulsion made. Emphasis would be recurve archery. Programmes would not solely contribute to archery form/technique etc but would also concentrate on fitness, strength, equipment set-up maintenance, having head screwed on right blah blah blah list goes on. People would have to fight for spots - limited numbers and "talent orientated"

It would have however been highly self funded (dont think I would've got the funds that I wanted), required huge support from clubs and coaches and a huge level of commitment from archers.

But it was not to be, I didn't think I could get it up and running so someone else can pick it up and run with it.:thumb:

[flyboy_su27]

I had the intention that it would be a combination of correspondence and "get togethers". The get togethers would be rotated around various venues throughout NZ dependant on location of programme members approx once every couple of months for a weekend and a twice yearly intensive 1 week training camp, with archers required to submit documentation, journals etc to coaches once a fortnight. Reports would be written on athletes once every six months by the coaches, with comments from squad manager...

haha ok that clears that up, cheers. The taking notes on athletes progress is very Korean...but also a very good idea. The Koreans have whole manuals on their students, they seem to know everything about them, from their archery to their personal lives.

[Jay.G]

lol like, meals-->
Breakfast: kimchi and Rice
Lunch: Kimchi with bit more rice
Dinner: More kimchi with more rice

[The One]

I had the intention that it would be a combination of correspondence and "get togethers". The get togethers would be rotated around various venues throughout NZ dependant on location of programme members approx once every couple of months for a weekend and a twice yearly intensive 1 week training camp, with archers required to submit documentation, journals etc to coaches once a fortnight. Reports would be written on athletes once every six months by the coaches, with comments from squad manager and recommendations as to future inclusion or expulsion made. Emphasis would be recurve archery. Programmes would not solely contribute to archery form/technique etc but would also concentrate on fitness, strength, equipment set-up maintenance, having head screwed on right blah blah blah list goes on. People would have to fight for spots - limited numbers and "talent orientated"

It would have however been highly self funded (dont think I would've got the funds that I wanted), required huge support from clubs and coaches and a huge level of commitment from archers.

That's pretty much on the money IMO.

[flyboy_su27]

lol like, meals-->
Breakfast: kimchi and Rice
Lunch: Kimchi with bit more rice
Dinner: More kimchi with more rice

Hell, if it gets gold medals, why not!

[Sir.Nightingale]

if we are looking at a quick fix the A team is the best idea, if were after something to benefit the future of archery New Zealand something to improve the beginner/intermediate level archery i would have thought along with the archers that are looking to train as a communicating group sorta thing are on to it and sort out what everyone is up against which will be a great learning exercise if anything for the future and those coming up, just a thought.

[jtimps]

From what I see, it is not the archers that are lacking dedication, it is the "support personal" (coaches, managers, psychologists, fundraisers etc) that need to be there to give them direction and keep their heads straight and actually get our archers the exposure to top competition that they need.
From what I have seen we do not have enough ANZ support people in any one geographical location to look after one archer let alone the twenty or so who are intending to try out for the commonwealths. Ask Peter how many people helped him get to the olympics.
Getting a dedicated coach from another sport would be the best thing ANZ could do at this stage, I just don't see how we can afford it (and yes, a cycling coach or a rowing coach could do wonders for our sport.) We don't really have enough archery coaches to go around, but what the big problem is that most of the archery coaches don't know anywhere enough outside shooting form to take the archers from the "good" level to the "world competitive" level which is where we need to be.
I haven't been involved with any of the previous development squads but if you expect one to be carried by the archers then I am quite sure that it will fail just like the rest.

[puddin]

From what I see, it is not the archers that are lacking dedication, it is the "support personal" (coaches, managers, psychologists, fundraisers etc) that need to be there to give them direction and keep their heads straight and actually get our archers the exposure to top competition that they need.
From what I have seen we do not have enough ANZ support people in any one geographical location to look after one archer let alone the twenty or so who are intending to try out for the commonwealths. Ask Peter how many people helped him get to the olympics.
Getting a dedicated coach from another sport would be the best thing ANZ could do at this stage, I just don't see how we can afford it (and yes, a cycling coach or a rowing coach could do wonders for our sport.) We don't really have enough archery coaches to go around, but what the big problem is that most of the archery coaches don't know anywhere enough outside shooting form to take the archers from the "good" level to the "world competitive" level which is where we need to be.
I haven't been involved with any of the previous development squads but if you expect one to be carried by the archers then I am quite sure that it will fail just like the rest.
thsi could be a good point. could archers get ahead with coaching form coaches that are experts in other areas. they could give views on how to develop good training programes and physical and mental strength if we get the right coach. specific form is only one part. there are others that i think alot of nz archery coaches just dont really know much about.

only my opinion feel free to pull that last statement to bits

[Ray Watchman]

[QUOTE=Sir Slick]
My suggestion, if the archers are very serious about the establishment of such a programme, go through the Athletes Representative or Coaching Convenor and suggest at the next board meeting to get outside assistance from a sport that has truly developed (rowing would be my choice), get their development manager to come in, take a look at Archery NZ and provide independant guidance on where to go so that we do it right and the programme stays in operation. At the end of the day although archery skills are unique to us, development programmes and athlete administration are not and we could probably learn a lot from an independant review conducted by rowing or Bike NZ etc.QUOTE]
I think this idea is spot on. Identify the sport success stories and ask them how we go about it within a framework of the resources we have. Rowing and cycling are, as Sir Slick points out, two obvious ones.
Archery in NZ, it seems to me, has always been beset by parochialism and lack of cohesion. Clubs need to catch hold of a national vision and be willing to fly in formation. I am sure a national elite development programme can be built on regional foundations. There's a lot of sound, creative thinking coming through this forum on the subject - and a real sense of frustration in seemingly not being able to bridge the chasm between vision and reality.
I believe it must happen, can happen and will happen.
Let us ask those who have successfully worked it through. I am sure they would be only too happy to share their experiences and offer practical advice. From there, a convenor group could, in dialogue with clubs and committed individual archers, draw up a plan and invite interest from people with the hard-nosed administrative skills to run it. And that includes the funding skills such a venture requires. But we sure as hell ain't gunna see the stars if we keep looking down at the mud!

[The One]

My suggestion, if the archers are very serious about the establishment of such a programme, go through the Athletes Representative or Coaching Convenor and suggest at the next board meeting to get outside assistance from a sport that has truly developed (rowing would be my choice), get their development manager to come in, take a look at Archery NZ and provide independant guidance on where to go so that we do it right and the programme stays in operation. At the end of the day although archery skills are unique to us, development programmes and athlete administration are not and we could probably learn a lot from an independant review conducted by rowing or Bike NZ etc.
I think this idea is spot on. Identify the sport success stories and ask them how we go about it within a framework of the resources we have. Rowing and cycling are, as Sir Slick points out, two obvious ones.
Archery in NZ, it seems to me, has always been beset by parochialism and lack of cohesion. Clubs need to catch hold of a national vision and be willing to fly in formation. I am sure a national elite development programme can be built on regional foundations. There's a lot of sound, creative thinking coming through this forum on the subject - and a real sense of frustration in seemingly not being able to bridge the chasm between vision and reality.
I believe it must happen, can happen and will happen.
Let us ask those who have successfully worked it through. I am sure they would be only too happy to share their experiences and offer practical advice. From there, a convenor group could, in dialogue with clubs and committed individual archers, draw up a plan and invite interest from people with the hard-nosed administrative skills to run it. And that includes the funding skills such a venture requires. But we sure as hell ain't gunna see the stars if we keep looking down at the mud!

Well said

[Jim Reid]

[QUOTE=Sir Slick]
My suggestion, if the archers are very serious about the establishment of such a programme, go through the Athletes Representative or Coaching Convenor and suggest at the next board meeting to get outside assistance from a sport that has truly developed (rowing would be my choice), get their development manager to come in, take a look at Archery NZ and provide independant guidance on where to go so that we do it right and the programme stays in operation. At the end of the day although archery skills are unique to us, development programmes and athlete administration are not and we could probably learn a lot from an independant review conducted by rowing or Bike NZ etc.QUOTE]
I think this idea is spot on. Identify the sport success stories and ask them how we go about it within a framework of the resources we have. Rowing and cycling are, as Sir Slick points out, two obvious ones.
Archery in NZ, it seems to me, has always been beset by parochialism and lack of cohesion. Clubs need to catch hold of a national vision and be willing to fly in formation. I am sure a national elite development programme can be built on regional foundations. There's a lot of sound, creative thinking coming through this forum on the subject - and a real sense of frustration in seemingly not being able to bridge the chasm between vision and reality.
I believe it must happen, can happen and will happen.
Let us ask those who have successfully worked it through. I am sure they would be only too happy to share their experiences and offer practical advice. From there, a convenor group could, in dialogue with clubs and committed individual archers, draw up a plan and invite interest from people with the hard-nosed administrative skills to run it. And that includes the funding skills such a venture requires. But we sure as hell ain't gunna see the stars if we keep looking down at the mud!

count me in! I can help you Ray, where do you live, sorry I missed it, but I,
........."FMD", I just google earthed it, OTAGO, perfect, SI, a blood brother.
'North Dunedin' a man with convictions. sssh!!!

ANZ, 'The Eagle has Landed'....'One small step for Ray, a giant leap for ANZkind.

see you soon Ray. ;)

[Jim Reid]

Just found out, wrong Palmerston, Palmerston North, in the middle of nowhere, the eagle just up and went.

Yer on yer own Ray, may the lord have mercy on your soul.

Do you get mobile phone reception and TV in Palmerston North?

What is the population? :(

[Ray Watchman]

Just found out, wrong Palmerston, Palmerston North, in the middle of nowhere, the eagle just up and went.

Yer on yer own Ray, may the lord have mercy on your soul.

Do you get mobile phone reception and TV in Palmerston North?

What is the population? :(

"Better that the eagle goes up where we belong than the vulture circles overhead." - Ancient North American Indian proverb found scribbled on a reservation casino bar stool.:D

[Ray Watchman]

My suggestion, if the archers are very serious about the establishment of such a programme, go through the Athletes Representative or Coaching Convenor and suggest at the next board meeting to get outside assistance from a sport that has truly developed (rowing would be my choice), get their development manager to come in, take a look at Archery NZ and provide independant guidance on where to go so that we do it right and the programme stays in operation. At the end of the day although archery skills are unique to us, development programmes and athlete administration are not and we could probably learn a lot from an independant review conducted by rowing or Bike NZ etc.

Would be interested in everyones opinions.

Back to the serious stuff ... This has been a worthwile forum. But where to from here? We should not lose the moment. In the light of the above quote, which kicked this discussion off, would a worthwhile proposal be to ANZ for it to convene a working party to explore this concept and come up with the necessary recommendations as to its establishment? Part of the working party's job would be talking with other sporting codes, as Sir Slick suggests. It would also need to be in dialogue with archers to ascertain exactly what they themselves want to see established. Actual and potential resources, such as funding streams, would need to be identified.
Perhaps ANZ could call for volunteers for this proposed working party and see who comes forward, then select members from that pool?
If this idea has any wings, maybe those of us who have been involved in this discussion could draw up the submission to ANZ and take it to the board via one of the avenues Sir Slick has suggested. If we want this to happen, let's make it happen guys!

[Archangel]

The Board have discussed this at length several times previously, and have called for volunteers more than once. It's been our opinion that the most important thing lacking at this point is some sort of manager/someone to run the squad. Despite us asking, nobody has volunteered so far.

[The One]

The Board have discussed this at length several times previously, and have called for volunteers more than once. It's been our opinion that the most important thing lacking at this point is some sort of manager/someone to run the squad. Despite us asking, nobody has volunteered so far.

Yep, I'm sure it will have the momentum to get underway once we have someone with the right experience, management expertise and committment to the program offer to run it.

Bernie mentioned that someone had been asked and was waiting on a reply. However, when I asked Bernie whether he would be interested in running it, he didn't exactly say no, rather he would see what the reply from this mysterious person was first. So Bernie may be a possibility...

[Sir Slick]

Yep, I'm sure it will have the momentum to get underway once we have someone with the right experience, management expertise and committment to the program offer to run it.

Bernie mentioned that someone had been asked and was waiting on a reply. However, when I asked Bernie whether he would be interested in running it, he didn't exactly say no, rather he would see what the reply from this mysterious person was first. So Bernie may be a possibility...

Bernie is referring to the manager for the Comm games stuff, not an elite programme. From my discussions with Bernie, he is not an option and should not be turned to. I would look somewhere else - Justin has indicated that he would be interested in the management side in the future - why not ask him - peer pressure will go along way:)

[The One]

Bernie is referring to the manager for the Comm games stuff, not an elite programme. From my discussions with Bernie, he is not an option and should not be turned to. I would look somewhere else - Justin has indicated that he would be interested in the management side in the future - why not ask him - peer pressure will go along way:)

The Commonwealth Games squad would seem to be most usefule if developed into an 'elite' squad afterwards. I don't see us starting two squads, especially if it would be similar people in each squad...

Justin has put his hand up for Assistant Manager. He has clearly said that he doesn't have the experience/knowledge to run an elite squad, but would be happy to assist and learn.

[burt666]

bit of thread necrophelia here...

So, heard rumors this weekend there is something happening! not sure of any details yet, but hopefully ANZ will announce something soon :munch:

[The One]

Yes, finally some cogs appear to be turning! Hopefully everyone will get behind the idea and we can turn the sqaud into a really beneficial component of ANZ.

[gizzy]

Yes I agree it would be good to get things up and running, it would be good to see everyone working together

[targetgirl]

Been reading through your ideas and they are fantastic. I am also aware that this sort of idea has been bandied about in IFAA clubs in New Zealand as well. Could this be something that both sides could work on together, knowing that shooting form is basically the same for both? With both having the same desired effect, it could be a way of increasing participation as well as making the sport more visible to the whole country. Just an idea.

[burt666]

Been reading through your ideas and they are fantastic. I am also aware that this sort of idea has been bandied about in IFAA clubs in New Zealand as well. Could this be something that both sides could work on together, knowing that shooting form is basically the same for both? With both having the same desired effect, it could be a way of increasing participation as well as making the sport more visible to the whole country. Just an idea.

The more the merrier, but i'm not sure can work...

Such a squad *may* (let me emphasied again, *may*...) be likely to use some sort of SPARC money at some point.

SPARC reconized only ANZ as the official "archery" NSO (National Sport Organisation) for New Zealand, as it is FITA-style archery which is used in high profile event like Olympic Games and Commonwealth Games. SPARC people are really keen to "support" athletes to send to those, as they give the best exposure.

Sad but true, not sure ANZ/SPARC would be keen on the IFAA people to "freeload" (understand benefit) on some SPARC money, if it ever get used.... as it's likely they wont send people to those events.

But dont get me wrong, i know a couple of very successfull field archers playing the FITA games these days... and if IFAA people get ANZ affilliated, then there i no problem anymore ;)

[The One]

Been reading through your ideas and they are fantastic. I am also aware that this sort of idea has been bandied about in IFAA clubs in New Zealand as well. Could this be something that both sides could work on together, knowing that shooting form is basically the same for both? With both having the same desired effect, it could be a way of increasing participation as well as making the sport more visible to the whole country. Just an idea.

A nice ideal scenario, but it won't work unfortuantely. The two disciplines are too far away in how the organisations are run, how they get funding, etc. It will always come down to bickering about how much each discipline gets of funding money. Easier to leave it as it is.

[NZLou]

Here is an idea just for fun..... what about SPARC helping to fund those that have actually represented NZ and that have actually won something for NZ like 3-4 years in a row - no matter what archery discipline!

[burt666]

Here is an idea just for fun..... what about SPARC helping to fund those that have actually represented NZ and that have actually won something for NZ like 3-4 years in a row - no matter what archery discipline!

i think SPARC is really after Olympic-style stuff Lou....:(

[NZLou]

Yes Burt I realise that - You are not getting what I meant.

[burt666]

Yes Burt I realise that - You are not getting what I meant.

oh, sorry, i think i did tho :(.... recalling what we talked about at Mitre10, i think i know what you mean know....

[Archangel]

SPARC funding archers would be a nice idea full stop.
As far as NZFAA goes - looking for funding when you're in a non-Olympic discipline of a sports body not affiliated with the IOC, but of an Olympic sport, well, you're not on to a good thing...