Mathews - Built to Last

[Colin]

A member of our Club (who name we wont say) , after shooting all day lent his Mathews aginst his car while he was chating to other members. He then forgot about his bow and drove over the riser in his two ton Volvo, apart from squashing the sight flat there seem to be NO damage and he was back shooting it again today with a new sight.
Good thing it wasnt a PSE.

[Marcus]

Mathews: The perfect bow for Volvo Drivers

:wink: :wink: :) :lol: :lol: 8)

[greglander]

you just gotta luv a mathews.written and authorised by a completely unbiased and unopinionated archer!!!!!!
:roll: :D :D :D :roll: :roll: :roll:

[OldDog]

You mean like Marcus. (see bad run for PSE post) :D :D

[Marcus]

Hey 3 of my last 5 bows were PSE's!

[OldDog]

And 15 of my last 18 were hoyts

[GaryH]

Honestly Noel,
Why the change from Hoyt??

[OldDog]

A legacy of broken risers broken limbs snapped cable guards and collapsed limb pockets, the final straw was the split limb system which I do not like

[Marcus]

Unfortunatly all bow companies go through spates of trouble, reason why I always get amazed at people who have only shot one brand and swear by it. The split limb system is a good example. I shot them on a Jennings bow, the bow was unshootable, nobondy to get this thing to work, yet I have not seen one instance of the 3/4 split limbs fail. Each bow should be taken on it's own merit, just never know when an awesome piece of gear comes along.
Good example was that I shot 100% Hoyt, then one day I picked up a PSE Fire Flight and tore my old PB's to shreads, shot awesome scores with that thing, then went to a Super Slam and broke those PB's again. You just never know.
Mathews however I doubt I will ever shoot, not a fan of long riser and short limbs as a combo. ALso too much vibration though them, but I'll keep trying them.

[OldDog]

While I have not shot hoyt for a couple of seasons I see nothing to suggest they have changed and as for vibration or lack of no bow on earth can match the new generation mathews for lack of recoil

[mike]

Children!! Please!!! :o

Both companies make good bows! :lol:

Tournament results speak for themselves for both Matthews and Hoyt (and PSE and High Country etc).

If their bows were really bad people wouldn't shoot them and the reason lots of people outside of the high level tournament scene shoot these brands over others has nothing to do with quality, its because these are the bows that are promoted heavily in the sport. ADVERTISING AND SPONSORSHIP drives these sales and also drives a lot of what people say too, I've noticed. :P

People don't generally get a full choice of products in this sport and so they go for what a dealer has in stock or strongly reccomends, or a bow they have seen a good shooter using (which brings us full circle to the whole promotion thing -- why is that shooter using that bow, was it supplied by a shop etc...)


Now if I could just buy a "good archer kit" that turned me into Dave Cousins or Clint Freeman on the line.............And I don't want to hear that the magic "good archer kit" comes from Hoyt and is called an Ultratec.





PS My High Country kicks the Matthews and Hoyts asses!!!! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Joking!!! :lol: :lol:



I am not biased I promise.

[Marcus]

Yeah it's cool, just ribbing Noel. Personally I believe a good shooter will shoot well with any bow.

[Eberbachl]

[While I have not shot hoyt for a couple of seasons I see nothing to suggest they have changed and as for vibration or lack of no bow on earth can match the new generation mathews for lack of recoil]


Hi Noel,

Whilst I wont knock anything else about Mathews, I don't believe your above statement is true. I've shot a couple of the new Mathews, and they vibrate and kick like no other bow I have ever shot :roll: If you have made your Mathews the most recoil free bow on earth, you truly are a magician :roll: :roll:

.....Ahh Mathews, ALL the speed with ALL the kick! (and you can drive over it with a VOLVO :) )

[OldDog]

This post is really humming now dont know which bows you shot Ederbacl but the hoyt pro staffers up here get embarrassed when we give them a shot of the icont

[Marcus]

Feelings on Mathews Q2XL

Appearance
Nice looking bow. Very well finished with strong anodizing. Looks like you get what you pay for,

In Hand
Grip is not very nice, too thin in hand. whole bow feels too thin.

Draw
Typical single cam, too much of a drop into the valley, not a smooth draw at all.

Shot
While better than the last Mathews I shot, the bow tends to jump to the right. Vibration can be felt in the front of the riser where the fingers sit. The bow really leaps out of the hand. Requires a fair bit of weight to prevent. Note that this bow had the built in dampners AND limb savers.

Overall: Very very well made bow, however the riser is far too long and limbs far too short. Not a bow I would put money down on.


Feelings on Hoyt UltraTec

Appearance
Looks awesome. Real cutting edge design. Anodizing was wearing where my clip on my wrist sling was. No longer using that sling and wear has been zero.

In Hand
Grip is good, take a little to get use to, but once shot feels good.

Draw
Very smooth to draw and shoot, easy to draw 2-4 pounds higher than other bows.

Shot
Zero vibration in grip area. Bow always goes with the follow through. No kick on even the radical models and no vibration. Very solid shooting bow.

Overall: Very very well made bow, shoots like a dream and is a joy to shoot. Yes this one was given to me, however I will be buying it at the end of my contract for sure. Also considering getting another.


Am looking forward to having a shot of an Icon, I think it's a good move for Mathews.

[Marcus]

ADVERTISING AND SPONSORSHIP drives these sales and also drives a lot of what people say too, I've noticed.

I think this is a very general and ignorant statement Mike. While a store shooter will be careful of what they say, that does not mean their opinions are bought. You do not accept a sponsorship unless you believe in the product. If someone said, "here is a free High Country" I wouldn't take it because I don't believe in their product. Personally I was going to ring an order through for an UltraTec before I got it, plus have owned 4 Hoyts in the past. Roger Cripps in Tassie is a Hoyt enthusiest and Paul Malynn has shot PB's with his. Does that sound like people who have had their opinions bought?
If guys like Jim Park and Shawn Pratt didn't think their PSE's would give them the scores they need to win they wouldn't shoot em. Bows arn't worth that much money.
Remember you are dealing with shooters who have owned many bows in their shooting lives, many change yearly, these shooters know what they like and often are only made by one or two companies. Erika for example will shoot nothing but Hoyts. She's not sponsored, and my opinion doesn't come into it. She shoots them because she trusts them, just like ALL staff shooters.

[James Park]

Quite true.
I would not shoot a bow I didn't like, even if it was free.
My PSE sponsorship gets me a free pick from the catalogue, and I have been quite carefull to select one that I thought would really suit me well, and perform well.

[OldDog]

Onya Marcus so now explain why so many ex hoyt shooters now shoot mathews and so very few ex mathews shooters now shoot hoyt and why if the long riser short riser design is so bad that most companies are copying it (not hoyt) and why in just a few short years they have gone on to be the number one bow manufacture in the world and without a budget priced bow in their lineup to boost sales numbers, I dont pay for my bows either but if I did I would have no qualms about which one I would buy, remember I have spent time with both bows and like I said 50 million flies cant be wrong, your shot Marcus :wink:

[Marcus]

why so many ex hoyt shooters now shoot mathews

This is a case of New kid on the block thing. We use to see it alot in Vic, Everyone shot Hoyt, then a few top shooters went with PSE, and everyone shot PSE, then back again etc etc. Doesn't mean one was better, just at the time that is the way the masses moved. Means little. Also it is hard to try every bow out there, if someone has made the commitment to a Mathews they won't change for a little while. Tell me why I can count the number of Mathews shooters in Vic on one hand?

why in just a few short years they have gone on to be the number one bow manufacture in the world and without a budget priced bow in their lineup to boost sales numbers,
Fisrtly I would like to see figures that state they are the number 1 in the world, and not from Mathews either. Secondly IF they are the top selling bow in the world well doen to them, marketing is a wonderful thing. Microsoft is the biggest selling OS maker too, but anyone who know anything will tell you they don't write the best software.

I dont pay for my bows either but if I did I would have no qualms about which one I would buy, remember I have spent time with both bows

And I'm happy for you, but remember I didn't say that everyone is either a current or soon to be Hoyt shooter. I'm sure you believe in your bow, and that's fine with me, doesn't mean I was as impressed with them as you were though. Doesn't make me right, or you right.

like I said 50 million flies cant be wrong
How wrong you are there. Since when has a majority made the right choice? Almost never. 50 million flies is as intelligent as one fly. :)

Balls in your court.

[Marcus]

Forgot this one

long riser short riser design is so bad that most companies are copying it (not hoyt)

Again, does that mean it's right? Hoyt do have long riser short limbs, check out eth ProTec with XT2000 limbs. 38" AtoA.

Secondly for speed. So many people buy for speed these days that it's a huge part of the market. I don't personally like that combination. You may, but I don't, that's why Hoyt have so many choices, to suit everyone.

[OldDog]

Marcus mathews are anything but new kids on the block, in just a few short years they have proven to be the most innovative bow company around, your response was the same as the other makers but they soon fell into line when they realised that these people were here to stay. As for figures as to who sells the most it amuses me to know that both hoyt and pse were quite happy to crow about their sales performances until they were overtaken by mathews some industry insiders say precision is in 2nd place some say hoyt but they all agree mathews is king of the hill. Fads come and go very quickly but these people are here for the long haul

[James Park]

Leigh Cornish has just purchased a new Legacy. It is a very different bow to anything else I have seen. The limbs are laid way back, the cables run over fixed wheels rather than a cable guard, and it has rubber dampers touching the string in the undrawn position. He shot it at Moorabbin last Tuesday. Not sure how well it works yet.

[Marcus]

No Mathews are a new company, (PSE 25+ years and Hoyt 50+ years, Mathews 10 years) and their snake oil marketing techniques show it. Many buy into that kind of thing, but I find it offensive. However I consider their equipment in the top 2 in terms of quality. I get annoyed when I hear people say they are poorly made because I like their build quality. Key point is that I wouldn't shoot one now or in the forseeable future, and I don't think they make the best gear. Also I don't consider their stuff very innovative. They did not invent the single cam (I believe Martin or York did) and NO company should make claims to be the smoothest, not without data to prove it.
But as I said, MS sells the most software, but it doesn't make them the best software makers.

[OldDog]

What martin invented was not even close to what mathews did, if it were mathews would be paying royalties to martin instead of the other way round, and as for snake oil marketing these people have never made a claim they could not substantiate, I too thought their success was due to a very good marketing programme but the longer I use the product the more I realise this is top shelf equipment,

[Marcus]

Oh come on,

"This bow is the smoothest shooting bow ever, bar none, period."

That's opinion made out to be fact. Their catalogs would not be allowed in Australia because they portray opinion as fact. (In fact most archery catalogs wouldn't be, but Mathews are the worst)

[OldDog]

You might want to go through some of your old hoyt, pse, jennings catalogues, as they have all laid claim to this at some stage or another. PS we should be charging for entertainment on this thread, have you seen how many views there have been on this post.

[Marcus]

I agree there, they all make claims unprovable, but you have to admit Mathews make amazing claims in theirs. (like comparing a 2 cam bows as being like someone running inn a 2 legged race, please, what a load of crap)
Personally I would like to see ALL archery companies halt their marketing techniques, it's out of control. In the computer industry if you make a claim you better back it up.

Yeah, so many people watching, so little contributing. :)

Jim
Interested to see how the cable guard holds up, more moving parts are a worry.

[GaryH]

Forget charging for entertainment, who's for drawn compounds at 50 metres. I think we'd all pay for a viewing :lol: :lol: :P

[Marcus]

I'm in, I'll have time to duck his shot. ;)

[James Park]

Leigh's new bow did not seem to be any quieter than others.
The force on the bearings of the cable guard must be quite high, so it will be interesting to see what the wear is like. Also, the added mass at the ends of the limbs with the rubber dampers and the metal bits that hold them in place will add to the bow's virtual mass and hence slow it down a bit.
I would have thought that if the vertically moving limbs really did result in less vibration felt by the archers (which seems possible and reasonable) then the rubber dampers would be not necessary - are they just marketing hype, or do they really need to be there?

[OldDog]

Yeah me too he,ll miss

[Marcus]

LOL :lol: OK you got me! Touche!

[OldDog]

Are you coming to the fita nationals in brisbane next year, I would like to meet you.

[Marcus]

Yeah I hope to, at this point we are definitly going, will be good to put some faces to names.

[OldDog]

What it loses on the limb weight factor it more than makes up for with the roller guard, this bow still has an IBO rating of 308 ft per second, I dont consider that too shabby.

[James Park]

I had a shot of Leigh's Legacy tonight. I have to say it was quite impressive. Nice and quiet, and no vibration to speak of. Leigh tells me he tried it with the rubber dampers removed and it then had much more vibration. He was shooting it quite well.

[mike]

Marcus, I don't want to delve in to a protracted argument about all this, and I think you are being a little defensive.

It would be equally naive to suggest that a high level of promotion through advertising and sponsorship does not drive sales. If it didn't work very well, you would have had no choice but to buy your bow.

I am not an "anti-sponsorship" person, I have no problem with stores or manufacturers offering free equipment to archers who they feel will get out there and shoot their bows in tournaments and generally promote their gear etc. It works, I'm sure that the two main shops in Victoria would not do it otherwise (they are in business after all and it would be imprudent to be just giving them away with no expectation of a good return)

I bought my High Country because it looked nice and was second hand and thus the only bow I could afford at the time (that I felt was half decent). It has since proven to be very good. I have tracked my scores over the last 2 and a half years and the most noticable jump was in the months following buying my bow. However, I believe this would have happened with most of the good bows on the market then had I bought them and I cannot truthfully say that my bow is any better than any other. I can say it was great value!!


If I were good enough/influential enough to be offered a sponsorship I would take it if I could first have a trial of the bow. If it performed, I would gladly promote it. I would do it on the basis of the advertising value. I'd be very careful not to dress opinion as fact! I would try to steer clear of comparisons with other companies/shops etc because I would feel that in that regard my opinion is neccesarily compromised by my sponsorship even if I genuinely believed that the company for whom I am shooting make the best product.


I'm sorry if I sound ignorant but as a relatively new archer I cannot help but observe these things.
I am not doubting for a second that you or Jim wouldn't shoot your bows any way. You must remember though that you were given them so that you would promote them. You always had the choice to just pay for it instead.


...


Who's shot next???? :lol:

[Leigh Cornish]

Declaration: I am a Mathews dealer however I have no allegiance to or sponsorship from Mathews.

My new Mathews Legacy is the quietest, softest bow I have shot, it is quite unreal to shoot. I watched Jim Park and Bill Williams shooting it at the Moorabbin Indoor last night, it sounded like a 20lb club bow shooting a heavy arrow but the safaris were coming out at 275 ft/sec.

I will know in a few weeks when I start shooting accurately again if it shoots as well as my Q2, my shooting always goes off the boil after a big competition. It is slightly slower by about 5ft/sec. compared with the Q2. The cam is slighly softer than the Q2 cam with a narrower backwall valley. The letoff is 65% holding 20lb at 57lb peak.

The string dampers really work and as Jim says without them more vibration can be felt. This should be kept in context though as the level of vibration is the same as my Q2 which has less vibration than any other bow I have shot.

The riser is longer than the Q2 and the limbs almost horizontal. Limbs laid back like this seem to make the riser firmer in the hand and resistant to torque.

I think the main benefit of the roller cable guard system, which is very well CNC manufactured and has ball bearing rollers, will be the reduction in string and cable wear but time will tell.

I will keep in touch. :D

[mike]

Carefull Leigh, you'll make people think you have a biased opinion!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

There are predatory people like me on this forum who love to jump down people's throats if they post and mention a bow brand!!!

Just kidding...


Welcome to the forum. How on earth did you manage to start in the one thread were Marcus and Noel Teelow and myself are having a barney about bows and sponsorships!!! Beginners should start in the more mundane threads!! :) :lol:

See you at Sherbrooke. I haven't seen the Legacy yet but from all reports its a mean machine.

[Marcus]

I can see you point Mike, however I can tell you that many store shooters take their job seriously and have not sold their souls for $700 a year. They don't do it for the free bow.
The implication is not fair to the time and effort they have put in and the service they give to the archery community. I personally have sold a half dozen bows and far more gear than that in the last 6 months. Roger in Tassie looks after the gear needs of his whole club, really keeps them going well. Consider it appreciation from the dealer to the shooter.

[Leigh Cornish]

Hi Mike,

Older people take a little more time to catch onto these forum things. The Legacy is very different. Too many companies follow the leader, I enjoy new ideas.

Leigh

[Eberbachl]

Qoute:[This post is really humming now dont know which bows you shot Ederbacl but the hoyt pro staffers up here get embarrassed when we give them a shot of the icont]

Yes Noel, this thread is Humming!

I shoot a Hoyt CyberTec....

My other bows have included:

Hoyt Superslam
Hoyt Stratus
Hoyt Stratus Plus (x2)
Hoyt MagnaTec (my hunting bow)
Hoyt AccuTec
Hoyt CyberTec (my current bow)

As you can see, I kinda like Hoyt bows :P

The MagnaTec is a great hunting bow, the Stratuses, and AccuTec were outstanding target bows. The CyberTec I have just recently purchased and it's shaping up really well.

I've gotta say, having shot a number of Hoyts pre TEC, and now having owned 3 TEC bows from Hoyt, the TEC concept really has reduced vibration and recoil to an outstandingly low level. My AccuTec was the quietest and most vibration free bow I had ever shot, and the CyberTec (considering it's doing 307fps for 3D) is remakably smooth and recoil free for such a quick bow.

Although I've not owned a PSE or Mathews, etc.... I have shot these bows, and I've not found a bow that I am as comfortable with as the gear that I'm shooting from Hoyt at the moment.

When I went for the AccuTec from my Stratus Plus, my scores went crazy, and I smashed almost all of my PB's........even in the first few weeks of the CyberTec, I've already beaten the AccuTecs's IFAA score, and I'm sure it'l blow away the AccuTec on the 3D course.

At the end of the day, shoot what you like, but for me, Hoyt is really kicking goals with it's TEC design :D

:roll: .....oh, and by the way, did I tell you, the CyberTec is the smoothest, most accurate bow ever produced, bar none....period?
:roll:

[OldDog]

Hey wheelbarrow, As far as I am concerned this thread has run its course. What you were priviliged to witness was a debate between two pro staff shooters who take their responsibilities seriously (and respect one another for doing so) Please do not try and demean this debate with your stinted view

[Eberbachl]

Hey Noel,

Firstly, I assume your comments are directed towards my last post, but if they are not, I belive all of what I say below goes regardless of who you are referring to.....

I seriously hope your last post wasn't meant to be serious.......IF IT WAS, THEN...

Nobody is privileged to witness these debates, or should have to feel 'special' to participate in them. These debates are on a public forum for all the world to see. Nobody owns these debates (if anyone does, Marcus does), and anybody has a right to contribute to them.

Nobody except a moderator or administrator, and certainly not YOU! has the right to tell anyone on this forum that a thread has run it's course and they shouldn't post!!!!!!! :x

You said that you didn't know what sort of bows I shoot, so I was simply answering that, and telling you that I liked them, I don't know who you think I am, and honestly I don't care.....but more to the point I DON'T KNOW WHO THE HELL YOU THINK YOU ARE???

You say "pro staff shooters....." congratulations to those who are pro staff shooters, they (mostly) deserve it, but I shoot with a number of these guys regularly, so don't even dare to suggest that they are above me, or I should feel privileged to even speak to them through a forum :evil: :evil:

Having said all of that, if your last post was indeed in jest, as I hope it was...then I suggest you try to structure your humour a bit more carefully.

Cheers,

Luke.

These comments were edited by Eberbachl at 13:48 on 19th July 2002

[OldDog]

Hi Luke. Yes it was directed at your last post, some of it in jest some not, however I apologise for none of it. To suggest that I could close a post on a public forum is is as you say, not right however I do reserve the right to debate with whom I choose and I realised we could not have a fair and balanced discussion after your earlier post onthis thread where you stated that you had shot the new generation mathews, there were none in vic. at the time. as to the staff shooter yes it was tongue in cheek, those that know me know that be they the new kid with the fibreglass recurve or the president of one of our associations they are all important to our sport, and as for my sense of humor, I.ll find mirth whereever I please

[Grant]

Well Guys
This debate has been very amusing to someone that does not shoot any of the bows mentioned.
I shoot for the new kid on the block when it comes to bow manufacturing. BOWTECH. I beleive this company is going places this year their sales have gone to a point that they are now the fastest growing bow company in history. That right in history. I am not saying that they are bigger them Mathews, hoyt or PSE. but i do beleive that they will be around for a long time and will become a major player in the bow manufacturing industry.
Matter of fact they have already established them self in the USA.
When it comes down to what is the best bow i beleive that it is what ever suits you the best. Just because i shoot for Bowtech does not mean that it will be the best for you.

[OldDog]

Hey Grant how are you, have you had any luck with your realease yet. cheers

[Eberbachl]

Hi Luke. Yes it was directed at your last post, some of it in jest some not, however I apologise for none of it. To suggest that I could close a post on a public forum is is as you say, not right however I do reserve the right to debate with whom I choose and I realised we could not have a fair and balanced discussion after your earlier post onthis thread where you stated that you had shot the new generation mathews, there were none in vic. at the time. as to the staff shooter yes it was tongue in cheek, those that know me know that be they the new kid with the fibreglass recurve or the president of one of our associations they are all important to our sport, and as for my sense of humor, I.ll find mirth whereever I please

Hi Noel,

I will apologise for my sloppy description of the "new matthews" bows that I have shot in my earlier post. I have not shot the Legacy or Icon, and don't claim to be able to judge these bows in any way. I have seen one, and it does look interesting (i could be concerned about the wear issue on the roller bearing cable guard, and I'm not sold on the rubber string dampners). I do wonder how my comments meant that we could not have a fair and balance discussion though?

I am a Hoyt shooter, but I certainly am open to discussion and intelligent critiquing of all bows.

As far as the staff shooter bit......well it did seem as though you were suggesting that we lowly non-staff shooters should feel lucky...

privileged

...that we can read a discussion between two staff shooters....??? :roll:

Anyway, at the end of the day, I would not ever question your right to debate with whom you choose, but we should all be carefull to try not to insult others whilst we do it.........right?

Cheers,

Luke. :D

[OldDog]

Fine by me Luke, I,m sorry that you took umbrage at a comment that as I said was tongue in cheek, however I felt it a little unfair of you to be stating your opinion on a product that at the time was not available to you , that said let,s bury it and get on with the business of entertaining ourselves and all others who care to join in on this excellent forum :wink:

[Eberbachl]

That's cool Noel, the bow I was forwarding my opinion on was a Mathews from this year catalogue shot by one of our guys (lander). I called it new 'cause it was out of this years catalogue. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

...sure, lets bury it and get on with the job at hand.....:D

[mike]

Its good to see that we're all friends again. :o

:P

[Grant]

Gday Noel
Yep i have sorted the release out i have gone back to what i am best at "fingers".
Still not back to my best but i have not used them since last year.

[OldDog]

I thought you would, how do you think this bow will stack up against the CSS shooting fingers.

[Grant]

So far so good. i did adjust the let off but apart from that it shoots good.
Will take some time to get my release back but it will be better then what i have been doing