View Full Version : The 3M line
James Park
02-05-2008, 10:03 PM
In target archery, if you drop an arrow and it is your side of the 3M line it is deemed not to have been shot and you can shoot another one.
What happens in field archery?
You are shooting from an elevated position and drop an arrow. It falls vertically 4M, but horizontally only 1M. Has it been shot? Can you shoot another?
Hannah
02-05-2008, 10:37 PM
I didn't realise that the 3m rule still applied for field!
rachel
03-05-2008, 12:14 AM
According to Merv it doesn't. If you can touch the arrow with your bow, the old rule applies. Don't know about the cliff thing though.
Archangel
03-05-2008, 05:47 AM
Yeah, that was what I thought too - it went by the old 'if you can touch it with your bow it's not shot' rule.
On the topic, I notice that most of the tournaments around here have _finally_ stopped explaining the damn rule before the start of shooting. Progress!
The One
03-05-2008, 06:28 AM
Yeah, that was what I thought too - it went by the old 'if you can touch it with your bow it's not shot' rule.
On the topic, I notice that most of the tournaments around here have _finally_ stopped explaining the damn rule before the start of shooting. Progress!
Yes!
Clare Barnes
03-05-2008, 06:30 AM
I didn't realise that the 3m rule still applied for field!
It doesn't - read FITA 9.4.4 ;)
9.4.4 Under no circumstances may an arrow be re-shot.
An arrow may be considered to have not been shot if:
9.4.4.1 The athlete can touch it with his bow without moving his feet
from their position in relation to the shooting line, and provided
the arrow has not rebounded.
9.4.4.2 The target face or buttress falls over (in spite of having been
fixed to the satisfaction of the Judges). The Judges will take
whatever measures they deem necessary, and compensate adequate
time for shooting the relevant number of arrows. If the buttress
only slides down it will be left to the Judges to decide what
action to take, if any.
James Park
03-05-2008, 06:40 AM
So, I gather that if it falls vertically too far for you to reach it it is deemed to have been shot.
Even if it just falls out of your quiver as you climb a shooting stand?
So, I gather that if it falls vertically too far for you to reach it it is deemed to have been shot.
Even if it just falls out of your quiver as you climb a shooting stand?
I firmly believe that common sense should apply in a field scenario such as this. If the arrow dropped vertically or fell out of your quiver (are you trying to actually shoot it? Doubtful!) I would certainly allow another arrow to be shot.
We always have to try to look at the 'intent' of the rule we are told and whether the archer gains an 'unfair' advantage over others.
If you are on fairly solid ground and really have "shot" the arrow then I believe that the rule quoted by Clare is applicable.
Bottom Dweller
03-05-2008, 07:49 AM
"9.4.4.1 The athlete can touch it with his bow without moving his feet
from their position in relation to the shooting line, and provided
the arrow has not rebounded."
Hmmm....... It might be a big stretch, but I wonder if that rule would apply if you had a very tall junior shooting 5m. They might just be able to touch the back of a shot arrow in the target with their recurve or longbow. If they could, they could shoot all day until they had a perfect end ;-)
James Park
03-05-2008, 07:52 AM
Yes, time to get the telescoping stabiliser out of the cupboard.
"9.4.4.1 The athlete can touch it with his bow without moving his feet
from their position in relation to the shooting line, and provided
the arrow has not rebounded."
Hmmm....... It might be a big stretch, but I wonder if that rule would apply if you had a very tall junior shooting 5m. They might just be able to touch the back of a shot arrow in the target with their recurve or longbow. If they could, they could shoot all day until they had a perfect end ;-)
Again, common sense needs to be applied. If the arrow has been shot and is lodged in the target there is no way you would be allowed to re-shoot it. The arrows are not allowed to be touched or withdrawn until all the scores have been recorded. Think you're clutching at straws here!
Archangel
03-05-2008, 03:41 PM
It does say an arrow may be considered to be unshot under those circumstances, not that it will be ;-)
couldnt the rule about touching the arrow the target will disqualify said arrow then be applied if the arrow did indeed reach the target?
even a tall 16 year old would struggle to touch the target without a 40 inch rod
couldnt the rule about touching the arrow the target will disqualify said arrow then be applied if the arrow did indeed reach the target?
even a tall 16 year old would struggle to touch the target without a 40 inch rod
Please explain!
rachel
03-05-2008, 07:30 PM
:o
Craig R
03-05-2008, 08:14 PM
It all seems pretty clear to me.
In target archery, if you drop an arrow and it is your side of the 3M line it is deemed not to have been shot and you can shoot another one.
Of course its not been shot....its been dropped so pick it up and shoot it! I can't see that it would matter even if its been dropped passed the 3m line(probably hard to do). If it wasn't nocked and shot shoot another.
What happens in field archery?
You are shooting from an elevated position and drop an arrow. It falls vertically 4M, but horizontally only 1M. Has it been shot? Can you shoot another?
Same again, dropped not shot so shoot another.
It only matters if the arrow was shot .
Of course it all matters what the definition of shot is?
I would think that unless the arrow was nocked and drawn partially/fully and loosed then its not shot.
Just my 2 cents
Please explain!
umm, like in target, how your not supposed to touch the arrow or the target face before scoring is done?
and then im refering to what bottom dweller said.
Hmmm....... It might be a big stretch, but I wonder if that rule would apply if you had a very tall junior shooting 5m. They might just be able to touch the back of a shot arrow in the target with their recurve or longbow. If they could, they could shoot all day until they had a perfect end
couldnt the rule about touching the arrow the target will disqualify said arrow then be applied if the arrow did indeed reach the target?
even a tall 16 year old would struggle to touch the target without a 40 inch rod
What do you mean by "disqualify the arrow?" You are still not being clear even after your second post!
Just as an aside, I have yet to see the 3M rule NEEDED at any major event I have attended in the past 15 years. And I have attended quite a few.
Just as an aside, I have yet to see the 3M rule NEEDED at any major event I have attended in the past 15 years. And I have attended quite a few.
This is very true - I've seen millions of arrows 'shot' over the years and I've seen it only once. Jim's original query related to Field archery, however, and even then it's extremely rare. We shouldn't get our knickers in a knot over this - again, a plea for common sense rather than blind, black and white rules.
James Park
04-05-2008, 06:56 AM
The only time I have needed it was in a FITA at DVA a couple of years ago at 30M.
However, rather than a 3M line I needed a 10M line. (I touched the trigger while letting the bow down).
Marcus
04-05-2008, 10:16 AM
Is there something where if indoors the arrow falls at the feet of the archer and then slides past the 3m line? Outdoors it would have been re-shot while indoors the choice of flooring impacted on the results (which is bad)
Also is there a rule on if the arrow bounces off a wall and slides back to the archer's feet. can it be reshot?
Is there something where if indoors the arrow falls at the feet of the archer and then slides past the 3m line? Outdoors it would have been re-shot while indoors the choice of flooring impacted on the results (which is bad)
Also is there a rule on if the arrow bounces off a wall and slides back to the archer's feet. can it be reshot?
If the arrow is past the 3m line it is regarded as having been shot,no matter how it got there. If it is within the 3m line it can be re-shot, provided it has not rebounded(Rule 8.4.5.1). I'm sure we've had a similar thread before.
johnske
04-05-2008, 03:05 PM
The only time I have needed it was in a FITA at DVA a couple of years ago at 30M.
However, rather than a 3M line I needed a 10M line. (I touched the trigger while letting the bow down).Before the advent of the 3m line 'touch it with the bow rule' applied for target. I'm pretty sure that it was Terry Reilly telling me that he (or someone else on the {WC or Olympic} team) was determined not to have mis-shot arrow recorded as a miss and went into all sorts of contortions, leaving feet in shooting position while laying down and stretching out with one end of the bow tip held at arms length to try and touch the arrow - which he eventually did :rofl:
katzgrin
04-05-2008, 06:06 PM
Please explain!
At times it's difficult to explain a teenager's dreams.
Archangel
04-05-2008, 06:15 PM
At times it's difficult to explain a teenager's dreams.
One word: Testosterone.
sorry.
ive been constantly told in tournaments (target) that if an arrow is touched by an archer prior to scoring then that arrow can be considered invalid (not scored) by a judge.
thats just what ive been told
The One
04-05-2008, 06:45 PM
sorry.
ive been constantly told in tournaments (target) that if an arrow is touched by an archer prior to scoring then that arrow can be considered invalid (not scored) by a judge.
thats just what ive been told
I believe that an official warning is first given...
sorry.
ive been constantly told in tournaments (target) that if an arrow is touched by an archer prior to scoring then that arrow can be considered invalid (not scored) by a judge.
thats just what ive been told
Who told you this?
This is not true. The rule says that neither the arrows nor the face should be touched before all arrow scores have been recorded and checked BUT the rule does not state a penalty. Usually a judge might give you a warning about this but the arrow scores will still be counted. The reason for the rule is that if you touch the arrow or the target face it could possibly mean that a shaft lying very close to a line (let's say the 9/10) could move it into the higher scoring zone.
Of course, if you continue to do this, despite a warning, then the rules do go on to mention that your scores may be disqualified. Do you have any questions about this?
Archangel
04-05-2008, 06:53 PM
sorry.
ive been constantly told in tournaments (target) that if an arrow is touched by an archer prior to scoring then that arrow can be considered invalid (not scored) by a judge.
thats just what ive been told
Obviously that penalty could only be applied if it was that archer's arrow...
There's a long-held theory here that line calls have to be called up if an archer or judge molests it. Suspect that it's just a myth (Ed's explanation seems much more believable than other alternatives...).
Obviously that penalty could only be applied if it was that archer's arrow...
There's a long-held theory here that line calls have to be called up if an archer or judge molests it. Suspect that it's just a myth (Ed's explanation seems much more believable than other alternatives...).
Oh, my God - I don't think I've ever molested an arrow - this could be quite painful. Actually, any archer can request a call on any other archer's arrow values on the target.
GuyDawg9
04-05-2008, 07:02 PM
heres one, what if the judge touches the target face when trying to call a line cutter?, as i have seen half the judges that call my arrows do this
Archangel
04-05-2008, 07:04 PM
Oh, my God - I don't think I've ever molested an arrow - this could be quite painful. Actually, any archer can request a call on any other archer's arrow values on the target.
Yep, knew that, the idea was that if a judge is calling it and nudges the arrow, it had to be called up. As I said, it's most likely a myth perpetuated by archers looking to get extra points ;-)
heres one, what if the judge touches the target face when trying to call a line cutter?, as i have seen half the judges that call my arrows do this
Good one - old chestnut. Judges always try not to do this BUT if it happens they still call the arrow value as they see it with the benefit of the doubt going to the archer. Sometimes it's almost impossible not to touch an arrow or the face. The myth that the arrow is called as the higher value is just that - a myth.
Jim Reid
04-05-2008, 08:35 PM
OK Ed
What if a judge, an archer or any other person trips on the way up to the target and grabs the target face as he falls ripping it off the butt and pulling out half the arrows, what happens then Mr. Judge. What is the official line? Nice to know these things just in case. Or maybe a runaway bull, kangeroo, or stolen 4WD cleans up a few targets (knocks them over), what is the official line. I know this does not happen very often, but nice to be prepared for when it does. OR... an even simpler and possibly more likely one, what if the target (butt) blows over and all the expensive world class you beaut arrows are mangled, bent, broken and smashed to pieces :rofl:, do you pick up the target (butt) and score the bits that are left, and knock off the top two scores 'cause now the archer has been deemed to have shot eight arrows, as two brocken off bendy bits got stuck in the target. Well Ed, have you encountered any of these extreme scenarios or something similar.
Can we have the answer please Mr. Judge.
OK Ed
What if a judge, an archer or any other person trips on the way up to the target and grabs the target face as he falls ripping it off the butt and pulling out half the arrows, what happens then Mr. Judge. What is the official line? Nice to know these things just in case. Or maybe a runaway bull, kangeroo, or stolen 4WD cleans up a few targets (knocks them over), what is the official line. I know this does not happen very often, but nice to be prepared for when it does. OR... an even simpler and possibly more likely one, what if the target (butt) blows over and all the expensive world class you beaut arrows are mangled, bent, broken and smashed to pieces :rofl:, do you pick up the target (butt) and score the bits that are left, and knock off the top two scores 'cause now the archer has been deemed to have shot eight arrows, as two brocken off bendy bits got stuck in the target. Well Ed, have you encountered any of these extreme scenarios or something similar.
Can we have the answer please Mr. Judge.
Some very good points here, Jim. Extreme cases have indeed been encountered by judges around the world. A recent one involved the discovery of six huge spiders on a butt 3 women were shooting on. A fainting spell ended up with one lady sliding down the target face and ripping out just about all the arrows before they had been scored.
A more extreme case in Kenya involved a rampaging rhino who did, in fact, wipe out a good half dozen butts.
Fortunately, the second dot point of Article 7.4.5.1 adequately covers all the above (and any future similar scenarios) in relation to arrows being considered as "having not been shot."
This allows the judges to "take whatever measures they deem necessary."
In such instances, and because the judging philosophy is to protect archers' scores wherever possible and within the rules, the archers would be able to shoot their arrows again.
Hope this clears it up for you, Jim
By the way 'kangaroo' has a middle 'a' (not an 'e') and 'broken' doesn't require a 'c.'
The One
05-05-2008, 05:45 PM
By the way 'kangaroo' has a middle 'a' (not an 'e') and 'broken' doesn't require a 'c.'
Yes, the being able to spell hippopotamus (http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=5013&highlight=kangaree)is in fact a very useful life skill ;)
Jim Reid
05-05-2008, 11:35 PM
By the way 'kangaroo' has a middle 'a' (not an 'e') and 'broken' doesn't require a 'c.'
bye the weigh eye no, saw a brocken kangeroo once.
"wee sleekit coorin brocken kangeroo
looks like yon ute got the better o' you"
......Yabbie Creeks
stejac
06-05-2008, 08:50 AM
Oh GOOD GRIEF ....:rolleyes:
:D
Aragorn
13-05-2008, 10:19 PM
Same again, dropped not shot so shoot another.
It only matters if the arrow was shot .
Of course it all matters what the definition of shot is?
I would think that unless the arrow was nocked and drawn partially/fully and loosed then its not shot.
Just my 2 cents
This is what happened in Italy...
Archers A and B shooting on the same target. Archer A was preparing to shoot, that is his arrow was on the string but the bow was "on rest" over his foot.
Archer B pulls the string, releases but... BANG, the arrow was not correctly nocked on the string, big frighten and incoerent movements made that the long rod touches the string of archer A... the arrow of archer A is kicked away past the 3 m. line... Judge says it has been shot and so archer A scores an "M"... fair?
Another one...
Indoor situation...
Archer A lifts up the bow but the arrow just fells off the rest and the string, bounces on the floor and goes past the 3 m line... again a splendid "M" on the score!
This means that...
Archer A and B are head-to-head in a competition. Archer A has the arrow on the string. Archer B manages to give a stroke on the string of archer A. Archer A scores a Miss and archer B wins
Aragorn
13-05-2008, 10:27 PM
Fortunately, the second dot point of Article 7.4.5.1 adequately covers all the above (and any future similar scenarios) in relation to arrows being considered as "having not been shot."
This allows the judges to "take whatever measures they deem necessary."
In such instances, and because the judging philosophy is to protect archers' scores wherever possible and within the rules, the archers would be able to shoot their arrows again.
Hope this clears it up for you, Jim
Sorry but this is not the case for all judges...
I personally saw in the Varese World Cup event last year a judge slipping in the mud, ripping a target and with an incredible applomb say "what you called me for? It's an 8!" Actually, the arrow shaft was in the middle of the 8 ring. But before the arrival of the judge the arrow was really very close to the 10 line...
What should archers do when such things happen?
2Dogs
13-05-2008, 10:33 PM
Punch him out ;)
Sorry but this is not the case for all judges...
I personally saw in the Varese World Cup event last year a judge slipping in the mud, ripping a target and with an incredible applomb say "what you called me for? It's an 8!" Actually, the arrow shaft was in the middle of the 8 ring. But before the arrival of the judge the arrow was really very close to the 10 line...
What should archers do when such things happen?
I'd call over the Chair of judges and lodge an immediate appeal before any of the arrows or the face are touched. I'd make a pretty big deal of it if I were the archer.
Craig R
14-05-2008, 08:13 AM
So does the FITA rules give a definition of "Shot"??? :confused:
Archangel
14-05-2008, 08:21 AM
So does the FITA rules give a definition of "Shot"??? :confused:
Congratulations on achieving a new level of pedanticity even beyond that usually seen in archery circles!
Craig R
14-05-2008, 09:38 AM
Congratulations on achieving a new level of pedanticity even beyond that usually seen in archery circles!
Thanks;)
I'm actually serious if there is a definition of what "Shot" is. It would seem to me to make things alot clearer. Otherwise we are just leaving it up to judges common sense/interpratation of the rules.
JMO
So does the FITA rules give a definition of "Shot"??? :confused:
No - 7.4.5.1 simply states "an arrow may be considered to have not been shot if..."
katzgrin
15-05-2008, 08:25 PM
Congratulations on achieving a new level of pedanticity even beyond that usually seen in archery circles!
Shouldn't the word be pedantry?
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