Beginner's Hope?!?

[antonbuys]

I've been shooting for about a month now, my basic set-up being a W&W Trigger (70", 36# w/29.5" draw), using Mckinney Sportster 210's with 50mm Kurly Vanes & Beiter Nocks. Stab is a 30" W&W Fomax w 12" V-bar rods, all fitted with W&W's damper weights. Now, here's the questions:

I am slowly working my way up to 30m... (some of us have ot crawl, others are born lucky ) :oops:

At 10m I get an Easy 350 on Fita 30m Target.
At 15m it drops to 344
At 20m it's around 300
At 25m it's going on 280
At 30m it's going for a loop...

Now, barring telling me I need to get a "real" bow :evil: , or spend millions on arrows :cry: , is this a decent level of shooting after "being at it" for a month?

[Marcus]

It's a hard one. I don't think buying a new bow or new arrows will make a difference. Alot of people try to buy success when it was their form that was the problem.
As you move further back you will see form errors more. Do you shoot with a clicker? If not then get one. This is the most important piece of gear to a recurve shooter.
If you do shoot with a clicker I would suggest getting some coaching and work on your form. You may have to shoot blank target for a while. You may be moving your head or have a bad release.
Also as a beginner check out as many books as possible on the subject (start at http://www.dva.asn.au/books/) and find out how other people do it.
However it sounds to me like you need a coach first. What club are you at?

[franklin]

antonbuys

it is hard to pinpoint anything on a message board. please check if you over draw your form. clicker practice can come after talking with your coach.

your scores are good but with no bearing to future progress.

[Kuru]

Just practice on getting a good anchor and squeezing thru the clicker. Whatever you do don't stop pulling back otherwise it takes alot to get it thru the clicker. It will come, just takes a bit of time. Don't change your gear there isn't anything wrong with it. I get good groups upto 70 meters with my recurve that cost me $200 brand new and some old xx75 arrows. It all comes down to doing the exact thing over and over. Goodluck with your shooting :)

[antonbuys]

I'm currently shooting at a club in Kaohsiung in Taiwan, but my working hours are such that I can't get there most of the time when the coaches are there. Sucks, doesn't it? :cry: I'm working on it to get into a position where I can work with a coach on a regular basis (fun for them to have a FOREIGNER as an understudy). I'm keeping at it diligently. I was wondering whether my aiming isn't a bit "coarse" and inconsistent. (Keeping the bowstring to the right of the sight pin, and distance could possibly vary from shot to shot?)

What effect does a poor tab have on release and accuracy?

Best wishes

[antonbuys]

I forgot to add: "Yes, I use a clicker, and have rececently been spending a lot of time working on my form." I'm off shooting again this afternoon and will focus on form, and make some notes on any errors I detect. I currently own Archery Anatomy and Professional Archery Technique. Work through them on a regular basis. Also have the whole FITA 2001/2002 traning plan up to date. Was considering starting out on it next week. Would this be too advancd for a beginner?

[McDoof]

Hi antonbuys.

Reading books about archery can never be to advanced to an archer as long as you know how to improve your skills with it.
Although I'm a recurve archer and I do not have the problem to hit the target at 30 m I do work on my shooting technique very often. I would say it is the most important thing to me. To improve my technique (my scores also) I shoot about half of my time on a blank target (as marcus already mentioned) at 30 m. While doing this I'm concentrating on certain things like release, bow hand, anchor point, clicker, body alignment,... . Sometimes I also close my eyes while shooting at 30 m just to "feel" the shot (sounds funny but it is recommended by many archery coaches and works for me). For you I would recommend to work on your form instead of buying a new bow. To proove this I can tell you that if the bow wasn't o.k. you would not make good scores at 10 m and 15 m either. Your bow setup sounds to me like you should be able to reach 70 m or even 90 m (??).
Just go on working on your form! You are in it for a short time so you have to do a lot of "work" and to keep your fun at shooting your bow.

Never forget archery is fun and no work you have to do!! :D


the tab: doesn't seem to important to me as long as your release is consistent there should be no problem.

[franklin]

antonbuys

string to right side of sight? that string position depends on your facial shape. who told you to put it there? reading books to get information is good for data input, but knowing how to use is far more important.

working on form? you can work on one component at a time only and there is no guarentee you can find the solution. it is only data collecting. please be patient.

[antonbuys]

Thanks to Marcus A, Franklin, Gareth & McDoof!

I've started on Saturday, working from the very basics again, using the ten steps as a guideline and supplementing it with material from any and all resources I've got. Thought of spending 3-4 weeks on form, basicly three days on each aspect, starting out on ablanc butt, say at 15 and 25 meters (day 1), shooting for score (day 2), reinforcement (day 3), and so work my way through, until I see improvement. This I'll try and couple to weekly sessions with a coach. Also thought of something useful for "the old ball and chain" to do, she can take pics of me shooting on a weekly basis, and then I can analyze them to see if there's any mistakes.

After doing the form bit, I'll work my way through my setup, and double check everything there.

If nothing else, another month of 150/200 arrows a day can't hurt my scores.

I'm logging off on this topic for a while, will post news as scores improve and give feedback on what was the cause of the problems.

Good shoot all

Anton

[Marcus]

Hope you get this.

Buy a video camera. Record 6 shots. Look at then straight away and see what you are doing. Instant visual feedback.

Otherwise sounds like a good plan. Good luck, look forward to hearing how you go.

[antonbuys]

Yes, got it... Have thought of getting a vidcam, maybe I'll get it sooner than I though...

Have been checking around, and talked to Pascal Colmaire of FITA, he recommended I get some Coaching Manuals from GNAS (Grand...). I've also come across some basic MPEG clips for beginner archers. Will work on it. Did work on bowhand and stance yesterday, then did a bit of shooting for score. Got a 357 at 10 and 351 at 15. Will see if any impro on 30m tomorrow.

Best
Anton :P

[antonbuys]

:D
I got this on the Centenary Archers' site, and hope it proves useful. Anybody else that need it can copy it from me, or visit them at:
http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au

I hope this is ok with you Marcus? If it's too long, and clogs up the bowl :lol: , just flush it! Seriously though, let me know if it is ok to post such a long post, and if you mind info being posted here that was gleaned from other sites.

Here goes:

Shooting Form Check List

1. Stance

a) Feet Position - regular, oblique, reverse oblique, other.
Spread - wide, natural, close.
Turn - heels in, heels out.
Balance - balls of feet, even, heels of feet, other.
Consistent position of feet, arrow-to-arrow, end-to-end, distance to distance.
Consistent footwear :o , footwear with same fit and foot support, heel height. :oops:
b) Leg Position - knee joint locked, extended, relaxed, bent.
Leg muscles - tensed, relaxed.
c) Waist - rotated left, straight, rotated right, tilted forward, tilted back.
d) Trunk - rotated left, straight, rotated right, tilted forward, tilted back.
Abdomen muscles - tensed, relaxed.
e) Shoulders - alignment to target - left, center, right, consistency.
f) Head position - rotation amount.
Tilt - forward, backward, consistency.
Movement during draw of bow, anchor position, release.

2. Bow Shoulder

Shoulder position - high, natural, low.
Shoulder muscle - tensed, relaxed.
Movement during draw of bow, anchor position, release.
Consistency.

3. Bow Arm

Bow arm extension - locked, tensed, relaxed.
Bow arm - bent at elbow, direction of bend, amount.
Bow arm - rotated at elbow, amount.
Steadiness during anchor, aiming, release, follow through.
Consistent position - arrow-to-arrow, end-to-end, distance-to-distance.

4. Bow Hand

Wrist position - high, lowHand position on bow grip - left, center, right.
Finger and thumb position - tensed, relaxed, open, closed.
Movement during draw of the bow, anchor position, release, follow through.
Consistency.

5. String Hand

Finger position on string - consistent position arrow-to-arrow, end to end.
Finger pressure - top finger, middle finger, bottom finger, even.
Tension - fingers, knuckles, wrist.
Wrist alignment - up, natural, down, bent in, aligned, bent out.
Movement on draw of the bow, anchor, release, follow through.
Consistency.

6. Anchor

Position - contact points, nose, face, lips, chin, and neck.
Consistency of contact points arrow-to-arrow, end-to-end, and distance-to-distance.
Pressure at each contact point - light, firm, heavy.
Consistency.
Position of teeth - clenched together, closed, open.
Movement during aiming, release.

7. Drawing Arm

Elbow alignment to arrow - vertical - high, aligned, low.
Elbow alignment to arrow - horizontal - forward, aligned, backward.
Muscle tension - forearm, bicep, shoulder, back.
Movement during the draw of the bow, anchor, aiming, release, follow through.
Consistency.

8. Hold

Length of hold during aiming - timeSteadiness of hold.
Consistency.

9. Aiming

Method of aiming - direction of movement to center of target.
Consistency of movement.
String alignment - consistency of position.
Steadiness of aim.


10. Final Draw

The amount of draw between anchor position to release position.
Consistent amount arrow-to-arrow, end-to-end, distance-to-distance.
Movements - push on bow, pull on string, both push/pull, finger tension.
Consistency of movement.

11. Release

Activated by - aim position, clicker, time or other factors.
Consistency of movement - fingers, release aid.

12. Follow Through

a) Bow hand movement
b) Bow arm movement
c) Shoulder movement
d) String hand movement
e) Drawing arm movement
f) Stance movement

13. Check Position

Position of body after Follow Through - consistency.

14. Breathing

Rhythm of breathing - in during draw of the bow, half out at anchor or slow exhale from anchor to release.
Holding time during aim and release.
Relaxing between shots - number of breaths.
Breathing - relaxed, tensed, with chest, with abdomen.
Consistency.

15. Relaxing between shots

Method - distracted, attentive, concentration.
Preparation for next shot.


Well, that's it in it's entirety.

Working on my form, have seen some small improvements. If I can make it through the list :P , I believe I'll see some major improvements.

Best wishes

Anton

PS: Also have an adapted version available on fixing left/right/high/low misses, as well as the mental game - thinking, training, shooting. Anybody want it, I'll post it. (Went and fixed all the bloody spelling mistakes...) 8)

[Marcus]

Yeah that's fine. Nice checklist there.
One thing worth looking at too is your achour point. Where is it on your face? Reason I'm asking is that one of my Jnr recurve shooters was suddenly shooting with the string on the lfet side of his nose. If you look at any top recurve shooter the all have the same anchor point. String down center of nose and hand under jaw just beind the chin. This will e a huge factor I believe in your success.

[franklin]

Marcus A
:lol: the nose check depends on the nose size and shape and the amount of neck turn possible for that person. all will be well if there is no bow canting.

[Marcus]

Good point franklin. I would have a hard time shooting recurve cause my nose is too big. :D

[antonbuys]

:o I have to side with Marcus, will have to sell my recurve and take up woodpecking!

Jokes aside, I anchor tip of (big) nose and index finger under jaw, with the bowsting just lightly resting in a natural cleft in my chin. So those of you without a cleft, go get one. I happen to know a good plastic surgeon... :wink: Draw hand will be evaluated as I go along.

Some good news anyway, we're (me and the ball and chain) relocating closer to Taipei city (capital of Taiwan), and there are more coaches, ranges and competitions there (also closer to my local dealer - I'll have five of the purple ones, please, they make me shoot so goood!). Also have better working hours, thus hope to be able to start regular coaching sessions in the next 4-6 weeks.

Best all

[franklin]

antonbuys

the issue is not the nose or the jaw or recurve or compound. accuracy needs checkpoints. i think you Do need a coach.

good hunting(for the coach)

[Marcus]

Yeah agree. It doesn't matter what the referece is. It's like a rifle. You need a front reference and a rear reference. On a compound it's the peep sight, on a recurve it is a consistant anchor point. (compounds need anchors too, just a bit easier.)
A kisser button is worth trying too if you don't have one.

Good luck with your new job, let us know how you go about finding a club and a coach. WOuld love to see a picture of the club you join.

[antonbuys]

Thanks,

I know about the need for a consistent anchor point, have read about them in my books, and have been applying it consistently in my shooting. What I will do when I have a coach is have him evaluate my entire form (anchors away and all), and then start working from there. I have been able to find out about coaches in the area where I'll be staying, and one of the National coaches (professor Fu) lives and coaches there. He is apparently viewed as one of THE archery coaches in Taiwan. My local W&W dealer knows him and will help me to wangle my way in with him. Now I just have to wait until 1st of June when I move there! :P

Consistency and Zero Defect!

Best wishes all

Anton

[clever_guy]

antonbuys;

Sounds more like form issues to me. Keep shooting and pulling your recurve in the mean time (until you line up a coach). The more effort you put into conditioning the easier time you will have working with your coach.

Recurve (Oly) shooting is hard work, so don't get frustrated, it will all seem worth it when it comes together.

-CG

[antonbuys]

Hi guys

I have relocated to Hsin-Chu and am in the process of now setting up a meeting with the coach to start a regular traing program with him. As far as the shooting is going, it is slowly improving, working on my form and making small changes to equipment and setup. Will let you know when I manage to "catch a coach".

Bets wishes
Anton