Indoor FITA rules anomaly

[johnske]

Why are those shooting on 3 spot faces penalised twice if they shoot more than 3 arrows, yet those that are shooting on the single spot face are only penalised the once?

For example, let us say an archer shooting a single spot face shoots 6 arrows in an end and they all land in the 10 i.e. 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10

Under the rules...
rule 8.6.2.2: "If more than the required number of arrows should be found in the target butt or on the floor near the target butt or in the shooting lanes, only the three (or six) lowest in value will be scored. Athletes (or teams) found to repeat this offence may be disqualified."

so this archer can score the 3 lowest scoring arrows, and that is... 10, 10, 10 = 30 pts

Now let us say an archer shooting a three spot face shoots 6 arrows in an end and they all land in the 10 i.e. 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (2 arrows in each spot)

Under the rules...
rule 8.6.2.3: "When triple faces are used, arrows may be shot in any order, but if more than one arrow is shot into the same scoring area, both (or all) arrows count as part of that end, but only the lowest value arrow will score. The other arrow, or arrows, in the same spot will be scored as a miss, or as misses. Any arrow missing the outermost blue six (6) zone will be scored as a miss."

so in this case this archer can score the 3 lowest scoring arrows, and that is... 10, 10, 10 = 30 pts this seems to be almost exactly the same as the archer using the single face (with some variations for the number of arrows in each scoring area).

But then as judges we're told to go... "hang on, hang on, there's two rules been broken here" (and we can note that the second rule is the exact same rule that was applied to the archer using the single face)
i.e. rule 8.6.2.2: "If more than the required number of arrows should be found in the target butt or on the floor near the target butt or in the shooting lanes, only the three (or six) lowest in value will be scored. Athletes (or teams) found to repeat this offence may be disqualified."

so we then apply this rule to the archer using the triple face and they lose the remaining 30 pts and score M, M, M = 0

Why is the archer using the triple face penalised twice (once under the rule specifically applicable to triple faces and then again under the rule that is more properly applicable to single faces) - especially when they are already operating under an inherent "penalty" of not having the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 scoring zones?

[DKW]

I think these two rules must be mutually exclusive.

[2Dogs]

Why are those shooting on 3 spot faces penalised twice if they shoot more than 3 arrows

Simple, because they missed the target.

It's up to the Archer to work out the Pros & Cons before choosing a face

[johnske]

I'd hardly consider six consecutive 10's (the example given) as "missed the target" :)

The point is they've both made the exact same mistake of shooting more than the allotted number of arrows yet the one using the triple face is penalized twice, why shouldn't they both suffer the same penalty?

[Marcus]

Perhaps the rule should be any extra arrows shot shall cause one arrow to be removed, thus 2 misses, even outdoors.

[johnske]

Perhaps the rule should be any extra arrows shot shall cause one arrow to be removed, thus 2 misses, even outdoors.

Marcus, trouble is - that's a punitive approach and, by tradition, the rules of archery that judges are to apply are designed not to punish anyone for breaking a rule, but merely to ensure they can gain no advantage if they do so - i.e. to maintain the status quo.

This is the exact principle that's applied to the archer shooting on the single face, prior to them shooting their fourth (and more) arrow they'd scored a genuine 30 points and after rule 8.6.2.2 is applied they can still score 30 pts - there's no "punishment" for shooting the extra arrows (not this time anyway) and their score is protected.

The same principle is initially applied to the archer shooting the triple face, if rule 8.6.2.3 is applied they can still score 30 pts and their score is protected - but then we're told to apply rule 8.6.2.2 as well, and this then becomes very punitive indeed - they lose the 30 pts they'd shot before shooting the extra arrows (assuming they initially shot one in each scoring area). i.e. IMO not only is it 'unfair' and 'wrong' it also goes against the traditional principles behind the rules of just ensuring there can be no advantage in shooting extra arrows.

IMO, all that's needed is to make it clear that rule 8.6.2.2 is applied only when shooting the single face, and that rule 8.6.2.3 is to be applied when shooting the triple face (although 8.6.2.3 does need to be modified to include the extra situations of "or on the floor near the target butt or in the shooting lanes" that's included in rule 8.6.2.2)

[Marcus]

Problem with the Triple spot is this.

Archer shoots
10 top face
9 Middle Face
Then 7 in middle face again after a big flinch
If your rule applies and he shoots a 4th arrow as a 9 in the bottom face and gets a 25 instead of the 19 he actually deserved.

[Marcus]

Another example.

If the archer accidently shoots the wrong face with a 3 spot but then shoots a 4th arrow he can make up for it.
However if a single spot shooter shoots the wrong face they get a miss. (this happened to Erika when she won the Indoor Nats in 2006. She shot the wrong target by mistake. Miss.)

[johnske]

The example you gave with Erika is akin to an outdoor archer shooting on target number 3 scoring a 10 on another target such as tgt 2 or 4 (been there, done that) i.e. "someone elses tgt". Was it deliberate and a case of 'mistaken identity' or due to a huge flinch? Who knows - if there's the slightest possibility that it can be scored as a 10 the archer's hardly likely to admit they flinched - so one can only assume that it was a flinch, so it's scored as M. But this is a matter of shooting on the face that you've been allocated to shoot on.

As for the other example, the 3 scoring areas are on the same face and this face have been allocated to the one archer - and how does this really differ from an archer using a single spot face shooting a 10, 9, 7 (due to a flinch) and then a further 9 after taking a 4th shot? That's also scored as 25. It's actually cheating if done deliberately and that's why the addition to this rule of... "Athletes (or teams) found to repeat this offence may be disqualified."

[johnske]

Of course there is one simple solution to this issue - just remove the option and make triple faces mandatory (much kinder on both arrows and tgt butts) and rewrite the rules accordingly, everyone's then competing under the same rules and conditions - but just imagine the uproar from some! :rofl:

[DKW]

I think these two rules must be mutually exclusive.

What part of this comment don't you guys understand. Where does rule
8.6.2.3 say to refer to rule 8.6.2.2? It has to be either one or the other,
but not both! It makes sense this way. If one shoots on a single face then
they should refer to rule 8.6.2.2, it they shoot on a triple face then rule
8.6.2.3 will be the rule for them. Maybe this should be stipulated more
clearly though, when this rule was written I'm sure that's what was meant.

[littlejohnsboss]

If shooting at a world class indoor only triple faces are used this is the traffic light type and not a vegas type. The answer is simple everyone shoots a triple like world class and only 3 arrows are shot this is why they do it. Oh and compound archers shoot the inner ten clearing the line. Everyone should shoot under these rules then you would no if you got a world record. Is this not logical? If FITA world indoor does this. I shoot this way no mistake if a world record is shot.

[Marcus]

WTF?????? :eek:

[Jimmbow]

Of course there is one simple solution to this issue

Dont shoot more than 3 arrows or have any more than 3 in your quiver?:silly: