equipment failures

[Marcus]

why do we have equipment failures holding up shoots? How about no failures and if someone's gear fails then they battle on or quit?
Grand prix's don't get stopped while someone does a repair.
What does everyone else think?

[flyboy_su27]

Hmmm...

I think there definitely be a time limit of no more than 5 mins, or in an extreme case (limbs fly off and take off a hand), maybe 15mins at the very, very most.

In a shoot that can take several hours to complete, what's 10 minutes? But yeah, if they are going to hold everyone up for a long time, they should just retire. I've never been in the situation so I really wouldn't know however.

[burt666]

why do we have equipment failures holding up shoots? How about no failures and if someone's gear fails then they battle on or quit?
Grand prix's don't get stopped while someone does a repair.
What does everyone else think?

I *think* it's in the Judge rule book somewhere, that they have to hold the shoot at least as possible, or something like this... so if you break and can repair within one end, you just shoot it immediately after the end you fail, and if more at the end of the distance... or something like this as a rule of thumb anyway...

Re not allowing gear failure at all, i find it a bit harsh really

[Marcus]

why is it harsh? keep your gear well maintained. I think if your bow fails then game over, tough luck.

[timbo72]

I think it should be 5 minutes maximum for any failure. Any longer and it just starts to hold everyone else up too much.

[James Park]

Dear opposing knights on horse back,
While I have been (successfully) shooting lots of deadly arrows at you as you have been galloping towards me and have seriously damaged a few of your friends, my high-tech assisted crossbow seems to have a small technical challenge.
You see, as I (get my assistant to) draw the bow the (very new and novel) peep sight is rotating just enough so that I cannot quite see through it. I think I should be able to fix it within the 10 minutes allowed under the rules of chivalry.
Hence, I would be very grateful if you could pause your high speed gallop for just a few minutes. The herald (his name in this case is 'Ed') will let you know when I am once again ready to try to kill you.
Best regards,
Scum archer

(ps. I realise that the rules of chivalry don't actually apply to archers but only to the men at arms when they have a 'sword dilemma', but we recently put a proposal to FITA that they be extended just for such an eventuality as I now face. I am sure you would be able to see the sense in that.)

[Ed]

why do we have equipment failures holding up shoots? How about no failures and if someone's gear fails then they battle on or quit?
Grand prix's don't get stopped while someone does a repair.
What does everyone else think?

Cos it's in the rules! Except for Individual and Team Matchplays where no equipment failures are allowed - that's why quite a few archers carry two 'identical' bows.
At the recent Vic indoors with 150 archers shooting over two days (3 flights-1000's of arrows) we only had 2 EF's and each of these was fixed very quickly so that the archers could shoot almost straightaway. In my experience EF's have become more and more rare which means that equipment is superior to the "old days" and that archers are looking after their gear really well.
Why do we have a blood rule that stops play in AFL?

[Archangel]

I think there definitely be a time limit of no more than 5 mins, or in an extreme case (limbs fly off and take off a hand), maybe 15mins at the very, very most.
There is a 15 min limit.

I agree with Marcus - who needs it. You don't get any time in matchplay which is the more important part of the event anyway, so why have it for the ranking.
They don't have gear failures in cycling or rowing which you could say are approximately on a par with us in terms of gear. In motorsport they have more gear than any of us except 2Dogs, and again you don't see them stopping everyone for 15 minutes while Hamilton pulls in to get his engine changed.

I don't have any useful statistics but my gut feeling is that in top competition most of the time the damage has been done by the time a gear failure can be called; and most of the time at that level you have two bows, so it's often easier to swap one out and carry on then rather than wait until everyone else has done and shoot your arrows on your own.

So yeah, I say scrap gear failures. Less rules, less hassle.

[Archangel]

Why do we have a blood rule that stops play in AFL?
Safety. With things like AIDS being potentially carried in blood, nobody wants to take the risk. Can't say I blame them.

[Ed]

Safety. With things like AIDS being potentially carried in blood, nobody wants to take the risk. Can't say I blame them.

Isn't 'safety' an archery-related issue too?

[Archangel]

Isn't 'safety' an archery-related issue too?
Not sure how abolishing waiting 15 minutes while someone who hasn't shot their bow in the past six months stuffs about because "the peep isn't rotating properly" becomes a safety issue?

[Jimmbow]

if someone's gear fails then they battle on or quit?

What does everyone else think?

That would depend on the failure, rules, time to repair and safety?

If your failure could pose danger to the archer or those near would the option to "battle on" be available? No.
Then if the problem could be fixed in a timely manner, why not?

In a grand prix if your car was on fire and leaking fuel all over the track should you just "battle On"? No.

I think the better option would be to quit?

[renae farrugia]

A little of the topic here
What are the rules in archery if day an archer hurts themself some how and they start bleeding. (Perfect example if they smack themself in the face with a back tension and there in a competition)

Does the archer lose the ends it takes for them to get First Aid or Can it be called as something and then the archer makes up the arrows at the end of the distance while most others are having a 5-10 minute break?

[Ed]

Not sure how abolishing waiting 15 minutes while someone who hasn't shot their bow in the past six months stuffs about because "the peep isn't rotating properly" becomes a safety issue?

I didn't say that this particular one was a safety issue but there are quite a number that could be. Why would you want to stop an archer from shooting after just one end when he has inadvertently dropped his release aid at the target butt and no one has (or can lend) him a spare one for the next end?
So it's 9.10 a.m. and he has to finish when, with simply a little time consideration he could easily shoot the rest of the day? A bit harsh.
FITA tournaments go for a whole day just about - what's a few minutes?
The 'need for speed' syndrome is for you young people - as you get older you learn that doing things more slowly is far more enjoyable;)

[Marcus]

Yeah but if it's the first lap of a GP and their car fails tough luck.

Seems soft to me.

[Craig R]

Personally I wouldn't be all that comfortable winning because someone had a gear failure and had to pull out.

[Enlightened One]

without time given for equipment failures the junior nationals wouldn't exhist, and junior nationals are a good thing :)

if your serious enough about archery you'll carry two identical bows so equipment failures are not an issue.

i think its a good rule, but does annoy me when d loops break because they're tied wrong or something silly like that, there should be a penalty for that

[Sandy Hancock]

As far as I can see, there are essentially three types of equipment failure:

1) something completely unforeseen and unavoidable: e.g. a limb breaks due to a manufacturing defect.

2) poorly maintained gear: e.g. cam timing goes off, drop away rest falls to bits, bolts work loose and something moves or fails as a result.

3) archer error: e.g. a dry fire damages strings, cables and cams, and sends bits and pieces to the four winds.

Example 1) will result in retirement unless you have a spare bow.
Example 2) deserves little sympathy. Unless it can be fixed between ends, you lose points until it is.
Example 3) likewise. You stuffed up; you lose.

I think I'm with Marcus. If you're really serious, have a spare bow, which is the expectation at elite level. If you're not really serious, accept that bad stuff happens and do what you can to avoid the problem next competition.

[DICER]

At the Junior level it should not be that a spare bow is required! Juniors should be given every chance to do their best and should have access to great coaches, facilities and know-how. Quite a bit of money and material is needed to start archery. Therefore in the Junior level tournaments (inc. cubs, intermediates etc), competitors should be given ample time regardless of equipment maintenance since they may not have the "know-how" yet! It should be up to the judges discretion.

For senior level FITA tournaments - 10 mins in total max per competitor. With a warning given at 8 mins. The second bow idea is fine. I have an identical, but it does make it that more expensive for those athletes on the margin. Matchplay - no equipment failure time. Injury time - yes.

Recoverable injuries at both levels should be treated differently to equipment failures. I think it is a fair game that the athlete should have time to seek the proper first aid/medical help and be allowed to compete again and not be pushed into retirement or loose considerable points due to a minor problem. That goes even for a matchplay! Most sports take the mainstream - even equestrian events.

In this regard it was the Junior Nats in Sydney 87 where I had a recoverable "injury". For this it was dry eyes. It was a hot dry wind that had picked up in the afternoon - pushing 30 knots. I couldn't see since my eyes were streaming. They gave me two ends at 50m to recover. The simple application of some eye drops was all that was needed to continue.

[Archangel]

without time given for equipment failures the junior nationals wouldn't exhist, and junior nationals are a good thing :)
What? Why not?

I agree with what everyone's saying about first aid - but there is a separate rule for that and we're not talking about that changing. Just gear failures.

[Naomi Woodbury]

i would have to agree both ways really since i have had it happen i was greatfull but at the same time its a time waster yes and if your gear was well looked after it souldn happen at all.

by the way Brendan not everyone can afford to have 2 set ups my dear :silly: i know i cant the one i have atm cost me a arm and a leg as it is for the complete set up

[Bottom Dweller]

FITA tournaments go for a whole day just about - what's a few minutes?
The 'need for speed' syndrome is for you young people - as you get older you learn that doing things more slowly is far more enjoyable;)

I agree Ed. When the rules are applied sensibly the delays are minimal.

Archers spend a lot of money attending tournaments, and to have that wasted by a simple unforseen equipment failure is not in the best interest of the sport.

Most failures that I have witnessed are usually fixed in a few minutes. If the judge assesses that it will take longer then the judge will usually allow the end to continue. The archer then makes up any missed arrows at the end of that distance, when everyone else is having a break. Hardly a huge inconvenience.

[tropicalshot]

i cant afford a second bow incase of failure so that option is out.
after rigorous maintainance of my equipment and triple checking the night before that Git Murphy will always sneak up behind me and move adjust or break something, i would hate to be dissadvantaged over a minor problem like a string breaking

[Archangel]

i would hate to be dissadvantaged over a minor problem like a string breaking
That's hardly a minor problem!
I've had one string break on me over the years, and luckily it was in practice because it left my bow in an unshootable state afterwards (one of the limb pockets was damaged).
And it was fully my fault; I knew my serving was starting to spread, but thought I'd get away with it. Wouldn't have been deserving of holding up forty other archers.

[James Park]

You pick up the nearest bow and use it if need be.
If all else fails, I would throw the arrow (the least you will do is look stupid - if you actually hit the target you will be famous).

[Dr Phil]

why is it harsh? keep your gear well maintained. I think if your bow fails then game over, tough luck.


Agree. I know that it is possible to use the equipment fail rules to your advantage if you are shooting indoor and are deep in the yellow with an arrow still to shoot and are shooting a franks rest and decide to twist the plate 90 degrees.... or not.;)

[Dr Phil]

If all else fails, I would throw the arrow (the least you will do is look stupid - if you actually hit the target you will be famous).

I did this in a moving target 'fun' shoot. I grabbed all of the arrows in my quiver that were left after I had shot two and threw them at the target in one big bunch. I still managed to score zero. Epic.

[tropicalshot]

That's hardly a minor problem!
I've had one string break on me over the years, and luckily it was in practice because it left my bow in an unshootable state afterwards (one of the limb pockets was damaged).
.

the older shooters on this forum have just read that and are :rofl: and about to post the following,

"well young sonny in my day way back when with the old kevlar strings. you could not go three ends without your string snapping."

the old saying of the sounds of arrows loosing and a strings a snapping,

"you've never had it so good young one"
and i still got change out of a farthing
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Archangel]

Luckily the technology has improved, and I'm not old enough to be going on about "in my day when we had kevlar strings they used to break five times every shot, get off my lawn" etc etc ;-)

[Marcus]

It's the year 1346
The English are lined up in an epic battle with the French, who are beginning to charge.
The English archers draw and loose their arrows.
Barrage after barrage hit French Knights racing across the mud
Suddenly a cry from the English comes out
"EQUIPMENT FAILURE!!!!"
The French stop suddenly. The arrows stop flying.
One long Englishman is standing there looking at the piece of cow hide he used on his bow's shelf. "This ruddy stuff just won't stick......hang on, hang on, OK got it. Alright let's go"
The battle continues.

[Marcus]

Luckily the technology has improved, and I'm not old enough to be going on about "in my day when we had kevlar strings they used to break five times every shot, get off my lawn" etc etc ;-)

Yep, and they would pull out a new one, restring and keep on shooting.

[tropicalshot]

It's the year 1346
The English are lined up in an epic battle with the French, who are beginning to charge.
The English archers draw and loose their arrows.
Barrage after barrage hit French Knights racing across the mud
Suddenly a cry from the English comes out
"EQUIPMENT FAILURE!!!!"
The French stop suddenly. The arrows stop flying.
One long Englishman is standing there looking at the piece of cow hide he used on his bow's shelf. "This ruddy stuff just won't stick......hang on, hang on, OK got it. Alright let's go"
The battle continues.

you forgot,

Hang on chaps its past eleven time for tea!

but in the age of chivalry one side would wait for another to be ready for battle.
there were rules to follow. and ransoms to be gotten from capturing the nobels.

[Marcus]

Romantic view, but not followed in those times in reality.

Another good example is that often in American Football someone loses a helmet. They keep playing that down despite risking massive head trauma. They don't stop because someone loses a shoe or helmet.

[The One]

I'm all for getting rid of time allowed for equipment failures. Else, reduce it to a minimum.

I feel we are way too soft, just like we are on not DQing peole who add up their score incorrectly. If people know they won't have time to repair D-Loops, they will spend more time getting it right. I seemt o remember having a gear failure when I was about 14. My sight screw had stripped. I duct taped the sight to my bow and kept shooting. Harden up.

[whiz]

Well, coming from a background of people's lives relying on my workmanship... I have very little sympathy for equipment failures.

A serious competitor with one (recurve) bow has at a minimum:
A spare shot in, known good string that has been inspected and tested so that it can be swapped in the minimum of time and the minimum effect on shooting.

This would be a MINIMUM requirement.
In fact, I think that we should probably generate with the help of everyone here, a pre competition minimum checklist of equipment for each discipline. Recurve and compound.
Starting with the basics and stepping up to a totally duplicate setup. That way you could achieve the most logical and cost effective set up with a well thought out level of redundancy.

We could also have an inspection checklist for equipment serviceability.

You'd feel a bit stupid turning up at a world level competition to find that your release aid is about to have an issue that you would have noticed if you'd carefully visually examined it later.

Sounds like grounds for a new thread....

[tropicalshot]

how often do we get equipment failures now?

i know on the weekend just past, over two days we did not have any equipment failures and only i had to perform 3 line calls, i think archers have HTFU in regards to arrow calling and are taking more care with their equipment
imo based on our venue.

[whiz]

I couldn't see since my eyes were streaming. They gave me two ends at 50m to recover. The simple application of some eye drops was all that was needed to continue.

Soft!
These days it would be "Dry your eyes, Princess!" and HTFU!!!

[flyboy_su27]

It's the year 1346
The English are lined up in an epic battle with the French, who are beginning to charge.
The English archers draw and loose their arrows.
Barrage after barrage hit French Knights racing across the mud
Suddenly a cry from the English comes out
"EQUIPMENT FAILURE!!!!"
The French stop suddenly. The arrows stop flying.
One long Englishman is standing there looking at the piece of cow hide he used on his bow's shelf. "This ruddy stuff just won't stick......hang on, hang on, OK got it. Alright let's go"
The battle continues.

Hmmm...your story was good, although I believe the French would have taken the opportunity to retreat :silly:

[burt666]

Romantic view, but not followed in those times in reality.

Another good example is that often in American Football someone loses a helmet. They keep playing that down despite risking massive head trauma. They don't stop because someone loses a shoe or helmet.

they are paid to do so too...

[GrahameA]

Evening Sandy

I think I'm with Marcus. If you're really serious, have a spare bow, which is the expectation at elite level. If you're not really serious, accept that bad stuff happens and do what you can to avoid the problem next competition.

I agree. Even if the other bow is different at least you can shoot it.

I have bailed out at least one archer as I had a spare set of arrows in the back of the car.

[Enlightened One]

What? Why not?

I agree with what everyone's saying about first aid - but there is a separate rule for that and we're not talking about that changing. Just gear failures.

clearly you have never been to one:rofl: theres always dozens of equipemnt failures at the junior nats. from my years of experience shooting at both tournament, juniors nationals take usually an hour longer per day than senior nationals, equipment failures were a very large part of that time. i dont think a good percentage of the field would finish the tournament without equipement failure time given

[rachel]

A little of the topic here
What are the rules in archery if day an archer hurts themself some how and they start bleeding. (Perfect example if they smack themself in the face with a back tension and there in a competition)

Does the archer lose the ends it takes for them to get First Aid or Can it be called as something and then the archer makes up the arrows at the end of the distance while most others are having a 5-10 minute break?

To answer your question, Renae (seeing as no one else will), there is time for medical emergencies. I think it is up to 30 mins. I found that out when I got a nose bleed during the world field trial in 2002, but no one told me till after..

[Archangel]

i dont think a good percentage of the field would finish the tournament without equipement failure time given
Only the first time.

[Ed]

To answer your question, Renae (seeing as no one else will), there is time for medical emergencies. I think it is up to 30 mins. I found that out when I got a nose bleed during the world field trial in 2002, but no one told me till after..

For target archery the injury rule is the same as for equipment failures. You always need to let a judge know if you have an injury. You can make up the number of arrows at the earliest possible opportunity (under judge supervision) but you only have a maximum of 15 minutes to do this (Rule is 7.4.2.6).

Once again - this does not apply in Matchplay (like EF's).

For field archery the time is 30 minutes (as Rachel said).

[Peter King]

There are obvious cases where EF and injury time should be made available.

I don't have sympathy for stuffups due to archers failing in their preparation, but who can predict when limbs will crack (all brands do), a blade will progressively fail, or a release aid will "freeze"?

I have experienced those and I am sure heaps of others have too. That's what EF time is for.

On injury time, I haven't used this as much as I should. With loss of vision/focus, back injuries and cramps, I try to work out what I can do to shoot around the problem and what to do to avoid them next time.

Timeout for real injuries seems valid to me in every sense of the spirit of the game.

A few isolated incidents I recall of archers taking excessive advantage of the EF and injury rules doesn't change that view.

[renae farrugia]

To answer your question, Renae (seeing as no one else will), there is time for medical emergencies. I think it is up to 30 mins. I found that out when I got a nose bleed during the world field trial in 2002, but no one told me till after..

Thanks Rachel ;)

[bigfella]

I wonder just how much of a problem equipment failures are. At our Toowoomba Nationals last weekend I had none on my end in any of the 4 flights shot over the weekend. I think there were 2 at the other end. Neither occupied more than a minute or two.

If my memory of the last SQAS target championships serves me correctly (no wise cracks here 2Dogs) there were none.

Quite frankly I dont see that EF's are such a problem except that perhaps there is a rash of them at the moment in the southern states that is causing this present debate.

We all know that equipment fails at the most unexpected time and I am sure that all of us have benefited from the latitude and good manners that the rules allow us. I know that I have a couple of times and I appreciated the opportunity to continue shooting.

[Ed]

Quite frankly I dont see that EF's are such a problem except that perhaps there is a rash of them at the moment in the southern states that is causing this present debate.

At the Vic indoors (largest number shooting) we had 6 flights and 2 EF's which took all of 30 seconds each to rectify!

[Ashman]

As per below:
1. Don't forget your red flags..
2. 15 mins is soft
3. HTFU

8.4.2.4
In the event of an equipment failure the athlete will raise a red
flag while stepping back from the shooting line. Extra time may
be given to make the necessary repairs or changes to the damaged
equipment. The athlete will make up the appropriate number
of arrows at the earliest opportunity under the supervision of
a Judge (see article 8.5.1.7).

8.4.2.5
However, at no time will any equipment failure delay the tournament
by more than 15 minutes.

8.4.2.6
In the event of an athlete being unable to continue shooting because
of an unexpected medical problem which occurs after the
beginning of the shoot, no more than 15 minutes will be allowed
for medical personnel to determine the problem and decide on
whether or not the athlete is fit to continue competing unassisted.
The athlete will make up the appropriate number of arrows at the
earliest opportunity under the supervision of a Judge but has a
maximum of 15 minutes in which to do so.


8.4.2.7
In the Indoor Match Round, no extra time will be allowed for
equipment failure or the treatment of unexpected medical problems,
but the athlete with an equipment failure may leave the
shooting line to repair or replace the equipment and return to
shoot any remaining arrow(s) if the time limit permits. In the
Team event other member(s) of the Team may shoot in the meantime.

[Ed]

[QUOTE=Ashman;321459]As per below:
1. Don't forget your red flags..


You're out of date - the red flags have been scrapped as from 1st April (no joke) - try and keep up. The new wording is simply that the athlete "will call a judge."

[Ashman]

[QUOTE=Ashman;321459]As per below:
1. Don't forget your red flags..


You're out of date - the red flags have been scrapped as from 1st April (no joke) - try and keep up. The new wording is simply that the athlete "will call a judge."

Ah, that's what you get from cutting and pasting from dodgy websites. BTW, just trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to be funny... I thought Point 3. might have given it away.
:thumb:

[bigfella]

Quite frankly I dont see that EF's are such a problem except that perhaps there is a rash of them at the moment in the southern states that is causing this present debate.

At the Vic indoors (largest number shooting) we had 6 flights and 2 EF's which took all of 30 seconds each to rectify!

There you go Ed. No prob up here, none down there so why has this become such an issue with what seems to be everyone on this thread? Is it a genuine gripe or just stirring the pot?

[Marcus]

It's not a "oh my god we wasted so much time" issue. MOre of a "why do we even have this in the first place when perhaps the sport would be more interesting without it" kind of thing.

[bigfella]

It's not a "oh my god we wasted so much time" issue. MOre of a "why do we even have this in the first place when perhaps the sport would be more interesting without it" kind of thing.

Well, I am of the view that that EF's are there for the unexpected gear failure and I am sure that most (if not all) of us would have used them quite fairly from time to time and been glad of their existence. Who for example hasn't?

Many individual sports and even many team sports allow for equipment failure.. cricketers can hold up the game while they get a new bat, gloves etc, basketballers can change their team members (are they broken or just resting) and they also have time outs. Grand prix drivers/riders can call into the pits if something is going wrong etc etc.. so what is the hassle? In my experience they dont take long to deal with and it keeps most of us in the comp. Is there a problem with that???? not in my view.

Frankly (and this is the view of many) "if things aint broke, dont fix 'em".

Marcus, you may disagree with me, but I dont think that taking EF's out of the game would make it more interesting. Instead, I think that if you were to do this then there is always the serious risk that someone amongst our top archers is going to be knocked out of a comp for some minor EF and with this disappointing all who are enjoying the contest.

[2Dogs]

I'm all for leaving things as is.

EF's are part of our game.

[Ed]

I'm all for leaving things as is.

EF's are part of our game.

A:thumb:agree
I'm still wondering what the origin of the rule is, though?

I think my equipment failed last night;)

[bigfella]

a:thumb:agree
I'm Still Wondering What The Origin Of The Rule Is, Though?

I Think My Equipment Failed Last Night;)

:rofl:

[bigfella]

Tell me Ed, were you allowed time out while you had it repaired or did you just withdraw :)

[Ed]

Tell me Ed, were you allowed time out while you had it repaired or did you just withdraw :)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Only needed to make up one end.

[Ed]

Tell me Ed, were you allowed time out while you had it repaired or did you just withdraw :)

I may need a new release aid:o

[Peter King]

I may need a new release aid:o

Perhaps a bit more back tension?:D

[Hannah]

8.4.2.4
In the event of an equipment failure the athlete will raise a red
flag while stepping back from the shooting line. Extra time may
be given to make the necessary repairs or changes to the damaged
equipment. The athlete will make up the appropriate number
of arrows at the earliest opportunity under the supervision of
a Judge (see article 8.5.1.7).

8.4.2.5
However, at no time will any equipment failure delay the tournament
by more than 15 minutes.
Serious question.

I always understood it that the archer only has 15 minutes to fix the problem...but it says that the tournament will not be delayed by more than 15 minutes. Assuming that a single archer can shoot and score arrows quicker than a whole line of archers, doesn't this potentially give the archer more time
to fix the problem if 4 mins are allowed per end of six arrows?

Not that you would want to count on it, but in a pinch it would be nice to know!

[Ed]

Serious question.

I always understood it that the archer only has 15 minutes to fix the problem...but it says that the tournament will not be delayed by more than 15 minutes. Assuming that a single archer can shoot and score arrows quicker than a whole line of archers, doesn't this potentially give the archer more time
to fix the problem if 4 mins are allowed per end of six arrows?

Not that you would want to count on it, but in a pinch it would be nice to know!

Serious answer - the archer is actually informed by the judge of how many ENDS he/she can shoot to make up the arrows, e.g., if the full 15 minutes have been needed to rectify the problem, the archer will be told that s/he can shoot X number of ends of 6 arrows and one of, say, 3. In other words you are not allowed to shoot 4 ends of 6 in 15 mins just because you can shoot and score much quicker on your own.

[Hannah]

So is it 15 mins shooting time? Or 15 minutes with a presumed/estimated time allowed for scoring arrow ends?

[Ed]

So is it 15 mins shooting time? Or 15 minutes with a presumed/estimated time allowed for scoring arrow ends?

Yes, maximum of 15 minutes shooting time (includes time to walk up, score/pull arrows, return to shooting line,) The judges will normally inform you of just how many ends you can shoot in the time available to you.

Interestingly, let's say you have an EF at 70m and need to make up two ends of 6 arrows - that's OK - you go ahead and do this in, say, 12 minutes.
You then have ANOTHER EF at 60m where you need to make up 2 more ends of 6 arrows.
Therefore you are actually allowed another max time of 15 minutes since EACH EF IS COUNTED AS A SEPARATE ONE.
In other words, the 15 minutes is not the combined total for the whole tournament.

[qi-tah]

I seemt o remember having a gear failure when I was about 14. My sight screw had stripped. I duct taped the sight to my bow and kept shooting. Harden up.

Same thing happened to me in my first (and only to date!) comp. I have to say, i was very grateful for the injury time to tape the whole mess back together so i could finish the round. It wasn't as if i was an elite or "serious" compeditor, i just wanted to take part. It's pretty intimidating to come to yr first tournament; to be told "tough luck" if you have equipment probs (which in the case of yr inital equipment may be old and cobbled together as well) seems pretty harsh.

[The One]

Same thing happened to me in my first (and only to date!) comp. I have to say, i was very grateful for the injury time to tape the whole mess back together so i could finish the round. It wasn't as if i was an elite or "serious" compeditor, i just wanted to take part. It's pretty intimidating to come to yr first tournament; to be told "tough luck" if you have equipment probs (which in the case of yr inital equipment may be old and cobbled together as well) seems pretty harsh.

I can see how it would be intimidating, but you would not be given the same opportunity in most other sports.

[qi-tah]

I can see how it would be intimidating, but you would not be given the same opportunity in most other sports.

Which is why i was grateful for my EF time. :D
Actually, i think someone mentioned cricket earlier? A good example of a sport giving time out for an EF. There is certainly a precendent for it in a "points scored" game, as opposed to a race.

But i believe we were talking about archery. I was reading something earlier in another thread about how difficult it was to attract new ppl to the sport - how are beginners going to feel comfortable with starting to enter comps, with such inflexible attitudes from experienced archers? Would you rather that ppl didn't turn up until they were MB's? We all have to start flailing about somewhere, and sometimes that happens to be in public!

[Hannah]

I don't think that not getting an EF would turn away new competitors. Particularly because when you are new you don't ordinarily have any idea on how the competition will move forward. Of course, you are also forgetting that because EF's are so rare in most sports that many people don't even realise what they can and can't call an equipment failure for.

I've done that many times...not called an EF when I could've - but you live and learn. Its all part of the fun and games of it :)

[Gary Petts]

I was shooting next to someone recently who was getting desperate to take a leak. He asked my opinion on whether I thought he could call equipment failure due to his bladder's failing retention abilities.

[Coghlan]

I saw a guy kick his bow over and his sight broke and he called equipment failure.........and they gave it to him :-)

[Ed]

I was shooting next to someone recently who was getting desperate to take a leak. He asked my opinion on whether I thought he could call equipment failure due to his bladder's failing retention abilities.

You are allowed to change the order of shooting as long as you tell a judge.
At a recent tournament this was drawn to my attention by a male archer so I simply held up the shooting, signaled to the DOS, walked 70m to a butt on the pretext that the face had come loose - who knew that it hadn't? - and slowly walked the 70m back to the line. I'm a judge and it's my call!
Anyway - the archer's equipment had failed!

Protect the archer:o

[bigfella]

[QUOTE=Ed;324563]You are allowed to change the order of shooting as long as you tell a judge.
At a recent tournament this was drawn to my attention by a male archer so I simply held up the shooting, signaled to the DOS, walked 70m to a butt on the pretext that the face had come loose - who knew that it hadn't? - and slowly walked the 70m back to the line. I'm a judge and it's my call!
Protect the archer:o[/QUOTE

Good on ya Ed

[Peter King]

I was shooting next to someone recently who was getting desperate to take a leak. He asked my opinion on whether I thought he could call equipment failure due to his bladder's failing retention abilities.

That's OK for him to take a break, but if he said to me "can you hold this for me?", I'd be hoping he is handing me his bow.:D

[special]

At a Tournament i attended not long ago..an equipment failure was called and the archer re shot his arrows....at another comp i asked him what had failed..as he re shot immediately...i was informed that he got to re shoot because he was feeling sick???...how can this be deemed equipment failure:confused:

[Archangel]

At a Tournament i attended not long ago..an equipment failure was called and the archer re shot his arrows....at another comp i asked him what had failed..as he re shot immediately...i was informed that he got to re shoot because he was feeling sick???...how can this be deemed equipment failure:confused:
You can get extra time for medical incidents, the rules are much the same as equipment failure, but for obvious reasons it's not one.
No archer should ever be reshooting arrows though, all equipment failure lets you do is shoot your arrows at a different time.

[whiz]

At a Tournament i attended not long ago..an equipment failure was called and the archer re shot his arrows....at another comp i asked him what had failed..as he re shot immediately...i was informed that he got to re shoot because he was feeling sick???...how can this be deemed equipment failure:confused:

Do you know it's the absolute truth, or was someone just yanking your chain?

[special]

Thats the way i inderstood it...ill make sure he wasnt yankin my chain next time i meet him...