Potential new feature: what do you think of it?

[James Park]

I am considering adding a feature that lets you assess how well your bow is tuned. For example: are you likely to get fletch contact with the launcher, and what can you do about it.
Would such a feature be of interest, and what would you like it to tell you?

Background: I have put considerable effort into analysing the dynamics of arrow flex upon release and now think I understand it well enough to make predictions about what will happen. The mathematics and programming is complex and difficult, but if it was felt to be of value I would see if I could include something.

[Marcus]

Yeah very interested in seeing what it can do. If you can predict poor tuning that would be awesome.

[StevenB]

Would be very interested :D ,especially if you include recurves.

[Kuru]

Agree Steven. I would like to see some recurve troubleshooting software

[mike]

Jim, I don't think that there is any doubt that people would love a feature like that.

You could even sell it as an additional 'plug in' to the standard Accurate Sights program.

If what you are working on means that you could enter in a "theoretical arrow" that is, one that you are thinking of buying, and see if it will or won't have clearance and tuning issues, you would have solved one of the biggest difficulties in equipment selection. In fact, you would have solved the main problem that archers face, particularly for recurve.

You would reduce the income of dealers somewhat though!!

It is an impressive concept. I'm sure that the market in the States would be huge. I'm not aware of any other software that does that.

[James Park]

After thinking about the physics for a very long time, the status is:
I am now pretty confident I can model an ACE 520 being shot from my Quantum. The modelling seems to be satisfactorily consistent with my paper tune, in that I can predict the appropriate amount of tail high tear and that I will get clearance over the launcher. I think I know how to extend that to the whole range of ACE's, although I still need to collect some data (particularly relating to point weights). This is useful in that I have a set of ACE's at my arrow length with one for just about each size of ACE (I have 400, 430, 470, 520, 570, 620, 720 all at 700mm long, and am missing 380, 670, 780, 850, 920). My next step is to set an hypothesis covering the paper tear and clearance I will get with each ACE size with a constant point weight. If a practical test validates my hypothesis I think I have it beat.
I can then reasonably easily extend it to other arrow types: mostly just a matter of collecting data.
As for the programming: I have been working on a new module for Accurate Sights to cover it. The maths is quite onerous, as is the programming, but at present I can show the 520 and the Quantum reasonably well.
In relation to recurves: I have had the physics beat for quite a long time now, and think I understand it reasonably well. It is a bit more complex than the compound (I originally thought that the recurve was easier, but have changed my mind). While I have modelled it, I still have some way to go to be able to make predictions. Nevertheless, I think it is viable.

[mike]

Have you thought about approaching Easton or another arrow manufacturer about sponsorship for your research. I'm sure a manufacturer would pay you for this kind of stuff if they felt it gave them an edge over competitors (and I think this would provide an 'edge')

Only problem I see is the domination of Easton over the market already.

[James Park]

One thing my work so far has led me to conclude: the front on the arrow rests on the launcher (of course), but how much of the front of the arrow actually touches the launcher when you shoot the arrow? Actually not much. For my 520's it would seem that after the first about 70mm of arrow has passed the launcher the remainder of the arrow clears it totally. Hence, while I am using a Golden Key launcher, were I to use a drop down variety I could pull it down after the arrow had travelled only quite a small distance.
Depending upon the arrow parameters, with my fixed launcher I then have to worry about approximately the rear one third of the arrow clearing it, and for the 520's that is ok. I am able to show that for a poor choice of arrow the rear third will hit the launcher.

[Kuru]

James I have a stack of 670 ACE's so you can help yourself if you need some

[James Park]

Thankyou Gareth. Would you have one about 700mm long? The carbon, that is.

[Kuru]

Closest I've got for a blank shaft is 678mm so don't know if that helps or not

[James Park]

Gareth, I would value borrowing a made up arrow of that length if I could. I would measure its parameters and then return it.

Progress now: I am now able to predict the performance of ACE's at my arrow length and a fixed point weight. I will now verify this with a set of paper tests and powder tests using different size arrows. Assuming that works, I will then test it at several arow lengths and collect some data for different point weights. So far I have done the modelling for different arrow lengths, but not yet for the different point weights (I have done them all at 85 grains). After that I will add the data for X10's (I have the first data point which is for one of my 500's). What I will need is a few X10's of different sizes, hopefully at my arrow length - Bryce has 550's so that will be useful. I think Norn has 450's so I will try there. If I can find one of my old recurve arrows that will give me a 600, and that will probably be sufficient, although if anyone had a 700 or thereabouts at my length (most unlikely) it would be useful.
I have one data point for a Safari (same as Carbon Aero's I guess), so a couple of other sizes there would suffice.
I am not planning to cover Aluminium arrows - too onerous a task.
I could also try the Doosungs and ACC's.

[Kuru]

Not a problem James, will you be shooting at sherbrooke next Sunday ? Also If your interested I've got some 3L04-750 ACC's and 550 x10's

[Bruce]

James, Have you had a look at the pinwheel site. this program seems to have some good features yu may be able to incorparate.

The one that I found most interesting was a print out for adjusting pin sights to ( 5 pin for Bowhunter Div)

I know that you have based your workings on movable sights but there a lot of keen archers using pins extemely well .

Have a look at the site you might get some ideas.


Bruce

[James Park]

Bruce,
Yes I will have a look. What is the URL?
I have used Accurate Sights for pins. I simply set the sight tape down the side of the pin carrier and then set the pins to the distance marks. Worked satisfactorily.
Leigh Cornish also used it on one of the adjustable hunting sights (one with the curved bit at the back that you move to move the sight pin - don't know how better to describe it).

[Bruce]

James , I know the sight you are talking about .

and I agree that your method would work. this program prints out a card with the measurements in Thou ( i think ) it looks quite neet.

Here is the url http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com


There are a lot of good links at the start of the forum page know from gpr

[Marcus]

http://www.archery-forum.com/gprlinks.lasso

Links added recently, provided by a friend of mine from some of the other boards. Some pretty good ones in there too.

[James Park]

Bruce,
I have had a look.
It has some similarity to Accurate Sights.
I haven't checked their values compared to mine, so I don't know how well their algorithms work. It looks like they only do it in yards.
They are correct in pointing out that the allowance for uphill is different to that for downhill, so my guess would be that they are calculating it correctly.
Their input data looks to be the same as mine, so my guess is that they have done the geometry the same way.
I will see if I can do something about pin sights.

[GaryH]

James,
I've seen your software is available from the Nock Shop, though wondered if available from anywhere else?? Cost?? Has anyone written a review??? Not asking for much, am I??

Is the program only for compound, or is it useful for recurve aswell?? Is it similar to the Archers Advantage program??? :roll:

[Marcus]

For reviews visit
http://www.dva.asn.au/reviews/
I'll let James answer the rest. :)

[James Park]

It is available from a number of shops: The Nock Shop, Archery World, Benson's, Archery Mart.
It works for compound, recurve and crossbow.
The recommended retail price is $40.
It does similar things to ARchers Advantage (plus a few others).

[Robert Halley-Frame]

Gary H.

The Accurate Sights program is an excellent tool to obtain very accurate sight settings, get an understanding of the effects of slope for field, gauging (in the latest version) and wind drift. Prints out sight scales in either metres or yards, or if you like print out the sight scale for each metre of distance.

You can set up the program to your individual bow setup etc or have multiple files for each individual user or bow We use it at our club and it is very useful. Highly recommended...

:D :D

[GaryH]

:D Sweet!! :D
Just the item to go with my Sure-Loc Contender-X :P and my Hoyt AeroTec on the way from the States.

Damn, I like a little kid in a candy store!!!! :D :o :D

[Marcus]

Wait till you the the software, I spent weeks just playiing with the stats on it. Great stuff. If we did this kind of maths in High school I may have paid attention.