ABA V AA

[Kunnara]

Gaday folks...Just wondering if ABA members can shoot AA or any other form of archery and vis versa without having to be affiliated with each of them???
Regards...Kunnara

[James Park]

ABA members can certainly shoot with AA, and are most welcome to do so. AA has a "temporary member" form you need to fill in to get insurance cover, but the process is quite simple and quick. We had a number of ABA archers shoot in our State Short Range Championships earlier this year.

[Randall Wellings]

"temporary member" form you need to fill in to get insurance cover

We had a number of ABA archers shoot in our State Short Range Championships earlier this year.
now really...do you think the insurance underwriters would like to read that post.....sure it's there..but not to be abused....me thinks :o :o

Cheers

[James Park]

The other way to do it of course would be for ABA to declare an ABA event of the same type on the same day at the same venue as the AA event (assuming that the ABA insurance policy could cope with that). And vice versa.

[2Dogs]

As far as I know you have to be affilated with ABA to go shoot one of their tournaments.......ie: IFAA.......which is extremely painful when you enjoy target (AAmember) and only want to enjoy the IFAA

[James Park]

Why could you not have both AA and ABA declare an IFAA tournament on the same day at the same place? That is: independently, just happen to have two identical events coincide.

[robbo]

My understanding of AA's temporary membership, is that is only for the purpose of trying target, ie doing an introductory course.

Not for archers just to shoot AA target every now and then.

Just my interpretation. :-?

[robbo]

But I would like to see members of each archery organisation be able to shoot at each others shoots.

Probable not be able to shoot for awards unless a member of that particular organisation.

[Randall Wellings]

Why could you not have both AA and ABA declare an IFAA tournament on the same day at the same place? That is: independently, just happen to have two identical events coincide.

We have a joint venture for our indoor on Wednesday nights...works fine :D :D

had a couple of 'stick in the mud' AA members who tried to get it nocked on the head....jepodising their chances to shoot in major tournements..they said. :o :roll: . illegal shoots supposedly..they took it to the CEO and we are still operating fine:fist:

Sure it would be good if we could just rock up and shoot....same as being a footballer..no rugby player is going to be allowed to play League if they haven't joined the league association :roll:

cheers

[Alan Loy]

Is it possible for the tournement fees to have a second level to cover the insurance costs for shooters who are not members of the particular association? There is clearly a number of shooters who would like to shoot different types of events.

That said how much are the fees for the 3 memberships?

[Marcus]

"temporary member" form you need to fill in to get insurance cover

We had a number of ABA archers shoot in our State Short Range Championships earlier this year.
now really...do you think the insurance underwriters would like to read that post.....sure it's there..but not to be abused....me thinks :o :o

Cheers
yes it is the intention Randall. By allowing ABA members to shoot AA comps on a one off basis you are introducing more people to AA. This is an awesome thing for AA. If ABA had it I would have certainly used it by now. Best part is that everytime someone uses it that organisation has another participant for the year.
The only way an AA shooter can compete next to an ABA shooter is by running it as an AA event and putting ABA members under temporary player.

Alan
To join all three the cost is approx
AV: $101
ABA: $64 (I think)
3DAAA: $30
Total: $195

Not bad, but still insane as we are paying for 3 lots of admin fees and 3 lots of insurance. And to think only one organisation is holding back from merging the three and meaning that we can all shoot together.
:roll:

Sure it would be good if we could just rock up and shoot....same as being a footballer..no rugby player is going to be allowed to play League if they haven't joined the league association
Yeah Randall, but what we have is three football teams all playing in grounds next to each other unwilling to talk. 3 Leagues of 2 teams will never be as popular as one league with 6 teams playing.

[Randall Wellings]

yes it is the intention Randall

What an absolute load of 'crocodile crap' ...

Marcus...you are only too well aware the tempory player form was brought in for clubs to use when working with beginners...for a 'tempory period' usually the length of the introductory course..after which anyone wishing to continue in the sport would be encouraged to do what everyone else does..PAY their dues.
By allowing ABA members to shoot AA comps on a one off basis you are introducing more people to AA.....Best part is that everytime someone uses it that organisation has another participant for the year.
somehow your sums just don't add up. :o :lol:

Nobody said the present situation couldn't be better...BUT!! as has been said time and time again.....it don't just happen overnight.
Sure, I would like to play all the games on offer...and as much as you would like to argue the point...the games are very much disimilar...if it was up to you...there would be only one division in the one game shooting for the one award...the one Marcus chooses and that would be any one but ABA..

You really should get a grasp of your negativity and start to do something positive for archery on the whole...not just your little world.
You may well feel ABA has done the dirty on DVA, others will argue the point....they chose to get out of ABA....great....their choice...now get over it :roll: :roll:

[Marcus]

yes it is the intention Randall

What an absolute load of 'crocodile crap' ...

Marcus...you are only too well aware the tempory player form was brought in for clubs to use when working with beginners...for a 'tempory period' usually the length of the introductory course..after which anyone wishing to continue in the sport would be encouraged to do what everyone else does..PAY their dues.
By allowing ABA members to shoot AA comps on a one off basis you are introducing more people to AA.....Best part is that everytime someone uses it that organisation has another participant for the year.
somehow your sums just don't add up. :o :lol:

Nobody said the present situation couldn't be better...BUT!! as has been said time and time again.....it don't just happen overnight.
Sure, I would like to play all the games on offer...and as much as you would like to argue the point...the games are very much disimilar...if it was up to you...there would be only one division in the one game shooting for the one award...the one Marcus chooses and that would be any one but ABA..

You really should get a grasp of your negativity and start to do something positive for archery on the whole...not just your little world.
You may well feel ABA has done the dirty on DVA, others will argue the point....they chose to get out of ABA....great....their choice...now get over it :roll: :roll:
Bull**** Randall, if you were at our meetings you would know that I am one of the ones pushing to do what we can to keep ABA at DVA. ABA has not done the dirty on us, they simply do not fit the needs of our club and are doing nothing to rectify that. I have said a thousand times it's a shame they will not come to the party for the good of the sport.
As for awards only in MY division, again utter bull****. I am one of the ones who has DEFENDED IFAA's division on the grounds that it's an international standard. I have a problem with local games adding their own.
How do my numbers not add up? Every sport except archery uses one day players as an indication of the amount of people who play their game. Archery uses members, people like tennis use a number of anyone who touched a raquet that year. That makes a huge difference to our standing in the government.

for a 'tempory period' usually the length of the introductory course..after which anyone wishing to continue in the sport would be encouraged to do what everyone else does..PAY their dues.
But not exclusive to a beginners course. If you are an ABA member then as far as AA is concerned you are a beginner. I have looked into this and it is valid. Argue whether it should be all you like, doesn't change the fact that the insurance company allows it.

Reread my post, it's not negative towards ABA, you are looking for things that are not there. I do plenty positive for ARCHERY, but that doesn't mean I endorse EVERYTHING done in the sport.

Nobody said the present situation couldn't be better...BUT!! as has been said time and time again.....it don't just happen overnight.

No Randall, it NOT happening at all. ABA is not even entertaining the fact.

there would be only one division in the one game shooting for the one award...the one Marcus chooses and that would be any one but ABA..
Yes Randall, that's why I shoot 3D and ABA at DVA, I coach people to shoot recurve, I am running a shoot at the end of this year to get more ABA guys at our club shooting ABA again and am trying to drum up some club members to enter our state titles as barebow shooters. You know very little of what I am doing behind the scences. If I wanted ABA out I would not have put it's own forum section in. :roll:

[Randall Wellings]

doesn't change the fact that the insurance company allows it.
don't think the insurance company would be aware of the blantant abuse of the "Tempory Player" allowance. :wink:
As far as your numbers thingy goes...again..con the people the best you can....sure numbers will appear on the books...but don't you look like an idiot when people actually look at the numbers who regularly participate in archery.
ABA has not done the dirty on us, they simply do not fit the needs of our club and are doing nothing to rectify that.

do they have to??

No denying, you make countless references your input, but then we read you dis-jointed ways of covering other issues...one must ask "is this for real or just another attempt to influence" maybe your a potential politician.

Your section on the forum for ABA ..hmmmmm..good place to bash the rug :o :roll:


Nobody said the present situation couldn't be better...BUT!! as has been said time and time again.....it don't just happen overnight.


No Randall, it NOT happening at all. ABA is not even entertaining the fact.


Who of the current ABA members advicate the change that you so desparately desire... here is where the numbers do stack up :o

You know very little of what I am doing behind the scences

True..can't argue..always a pleasure :wink:
cheers

[Marcus]

Well I don't know Randall, but one of the most frustrating things in archery has always been that the ones who complain at the club rarely approach the National Bodies with their wishes. Also ABA, AV, AA all suffer from an overly complicated system to get things bought up. Finally our club has no vote at ABA meetings so we can not push for the change.
Finally I would hardl;y say I am using this area to beat the rug, started one thread regarding our problems with ABA at a club level. It's a shame you are not interested in hearing from those who are not having the rosy time you are having with ABA. Perhaps instead of shooting the messenger you should look at the problems I am communicating and let National know. Just letting you know how my club's ABA members feel.

always a pleasure
Always. :wink: 8)

[robbo]

I am running a shoot at the end of this year to get more ABA guys at our club shooting ABA again and am trying to drum up some club members to enter our state titles as barebow shooters. You know very little of what I am doing behind the scences. If I wanted ABA out I would not have put it's own forum section in. :roll:

Glad to hear that. :D But how will that work if DVA is no longer ABA?

[Marcus]

We are still affiliated and you can still be an ABA member, you just have to ALSO be a member of AV or 3DAAA to allow the club to be protected while you are shooting as ABAdo not cover our club should an ABA member be involved in an incident.

[Randall Wellings]

It's a shame you are not interested in hearing from those who are not having the rosy time you are having with ABA. Perhaps instead of shooting the messenger you should look at the problems I am communicating and let National know.

You know, that's one advantage of being in my position...I can talk to National and do so on a regular basis.. I have put forward ideas on many occasions and to date have had enormous success in having my ideas addressed.
Any proposals that haven't come to fruition was due to my not selling the benefits well enough.. or...upon further discussion, agreed that at this point in time.. things are best left they way they are.

but one of the most frustrating things in archery has always been that the ones who complain at the club rarely approach the National Bodies with their wishes. Also ABA, AV, AA all suffer from an overly complicated system to get things bought up.

How many club people even take their beef to the first level. .the Branch Controller.. for debate.. That's where the implementation of change starts.. presentation of proposal

[Bruce]

I really hope that in the near future , archers from all associations will be able to participate at each others disciplines , each of the 3 associations has something to offer the sport and until the executives start to talk to each other , it is up to us as members to try and organise things where we can all shoot together , covered by insurance ( I wish we weren't so americanised ).

After the agm in october I will report back to the forum , insurance I am sure will be raised again at this meeting .


BRuce

[Alan Loy]

No denying, you make countless references your input, but then we read you dis-jointed ways of covering other issues...one must ask "is this for real or just another attempt to influence" maybe your a potential politician.

...if it was up to you...there would be only one division in the one game shooting for the one award...the one Marcus chooses and that would be any one but ABA..

You really should get a grasp of your negativity and start to do something positive for archery on the whole...not just your little world.
You may well feel ABA has done the dirty on DVA, others will argue the point....they chose to get out of ABA....great....their choice...now get over it




Randall you obviously prefer to attack the person rather than the arguement.

For other readers who have a more balanced view of the world let me say the following from my personal observation:
Marcus has in fact invested considerable amounts of time (and I suspect money) in promoting a variety of Archery games not just FITA. He regularly assists in coaching non compound shooters (my daughter is one). I have also heard him argue for the continued affiliation between DVA and ABA.

DVA offers its members the opportunity to shoot all forms of the game at least at club level. It should come as no surprise that a large number of members at DVA would like the opportunity to shoot them all at the competition level. I suspect a lot of Forum members would too.[/quote]

[Randall Wellings]

Randall you obviously prefer to attack the person rather than the argument

Alan...rather presumptuous of you I feel...but then ..that may well be presumptuous of me... :fist:

Marcus, like the rest of us on the forum,..choose to make our personal opinions public...therefore one must be prepared cop flack if it doesn't sit well with others in the debate at hand and that's all it is a "debate." :wink:

Alan, isn

[Eberbachl]

Just for the record I want to say that Marcus does an AMAZING amount of work for the benefit of archery in all it's forms.

From running this amazing forum that gives archers right around the world this magnificent vehicle for healthy and open debate to running countless tournaments at club level, getting leagues running, to coaching heaps of beginners - juniors, compounders, recurvers, ABA, AV and 3D shooters to providing DVA with a great website (www.dva.asn.au), serving on the DVA committee, etc etc etc...

As a DVA member who sees the benefits archery and DVA are reaping from Marcus's hard work I take exception to comments like:

You really should get a grasp of your negativity and start to do something positive for archery on the whole...not just your little world.

Anyway, thanks for all the effort Marcus, a more tireless and more willing and giving individual one would be hard pressed to find!

...and as for the situation at DVA at the moment - well it's unfortunate that ABA chooses not to provide us with any real information pertaining to insurance, but DVA is unable to allow uncertainty to continue on this front, and will therefore be forced to insist that existing ABA members join either 3DAAA or AV to be fuly covered by insurance.

I'd like to think of this actually as an opportunity to grow as a club and would like to welcome 3DAAA on board.

DVA intends to be affilitated with ABA, AV and 3DAAA, and will be able to bring archers an unprecedented variety in what we shoot.

Our ABA members are encouraged to stay - we value them highly, and we hope that DVA's current course of action will only bring us one step closer together to everybody playing together as archers instead of three separate factions :-)

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Flame]

I really hope that in the near future , archers from all associations will be able to participate at each others disciplines , each of the 3 associations has something to offer the sport and until the executives start to talk to each other , it is up to us as members to try and organise things where we can all shoot together , covered by insurance ( I wish we weren't so americanised ).

After the agm in october I will report back to the forum , insurance I am sure will be raised again at this meeting .


BRuce

Hi Bruce

I live not far from an ABA club and have been following all of this debate with interest.

As you know I am a AV member but I would like to give ABA a try so I can see what happens on the other side of the fence and be more informed of your side of Archery.
Is it a case of rocking up and shooting as a guest or do you need to be a full member

[Randall Wellings]

this magnificent vehicle for healthy and open debate

and we do just that :lol: :roll:

I take exception to comments like
SO :lol :roll:

I was having a go at Marcus and his projected negativity when on a certain topic...ABA and pointing out that nothing good can come of this stance.

OK fine..I may have been a little harsh in previous statements, never the less...none of this association bashing does anyone any good...it's a time honoured event...****!! AA people have bashed ABA and visa versa since the original split...it has become a little tiresome.

ENTERanother player in the bitchin game. :wink: :wink:

Luke...Marcus stated that the insurance situation does not fulfil council requirements..fact of life, so surely..
that should be it...let it go.

Enjoy whatever game you choose to play..life's just too bloody short to worry about the "them and us"

cheers

[Eberbachl]

ENTERanother player in the bitchin game. :wink: :wink:

I haven't just entered - I've been here since day one :-) I can assure you ;-)

Luke...Marcus stated that the insurance situation does not fulfil council requirements..fact of life, so surely..
that should be it...let it go.

cheers

If you took the time to learn to read you'd have noticed that whilst I said it was unfortunate that ABA chooses not to give us any information on their insurance, DVA are ready to move on and take this as an opportunity to grow.

We've moved on :-)

Cheers,

Big Dog

[robbo]

[As you know I am a AV member but I would like to give ABA a try so I can see what happens on the other side of the fence and be more informed of your side of Archery.
Is it a case of rocking up and shooting as a guest or do you need to be a full member

As I understand the rules, you can turn up and shoot. I think it is about three shoots and then if you want to continue you have to join ABA. And you are covered by insurance.

I could be wrong but that is how I understand it.

Others that now more than me will no doubt set me straight. :wink:

[Randall Wellings]

I haven't just entered - I've been here since day one I can assure you

once again...see how easy emotions can cloud and issue....my reference above was not aimed at you..personally..
"it doesn't always have to be about you, you know" :wink: :wink:

it's a time honoured event...sh*t!! AA people have bashed ABA and visa versa since the original split...it has become a little tiresome.

ENTERanother player in the bitchin game.
another association...dippy :lol: :lol:

Glad to see you and DVA have moved on...I and everyone else i'm sure wish you the best....lets just go and shoot.
cheers

[Eberbachl]

....lets just go and shoot

That's the best suggestion I've heard yet :-)

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Flame]

thanks Robbo.

[Eberbachl]

As I understand the rules, you can turn up and shoot. I think it is about three shoots and then if you want to continue you have to join ABA. And you are covered by insurance

I'm not sure about that one Robbo - can anyone confirm that?

Bruce - can you confirm that anyone can rock up to an ABA club to shoot three times and be covered by insurance?

I know of quite a few instances where ABA clubs (well one comes to mind) have been asked this question, and they said - no way if your not an ABA member you can't come and shoot.

Not sure what the official ruling is.....

[Randall Wellings]

not sure about any offical ruling on this one....but to date..we have always allowed people to come along and experience the pleasures of archery.

Have'n taken the bait, we play these unsuspecting fools for apporoximately another two club shoots..then jerk hard..reel them in, cause those poor unfortunate suckers are caught in this overly adictive sport.

Yes..this 3 club shoot format has been the practice in the past (not official shoots) and I can't every remember having to ask someone to join..they usually are aware of the situation and come to us to sign up...otherwise when the time has lapsed..they just don't front up.

cheers

[Eberbachl]

this 3 club shoot format has been the practice in the past (not official shoots) and I can't every remember having to ask someone to join

Is this a potentially dangerous practice for the individual and the club?

What if that person shoots someone whilst shooting on an ABA club ground at an ABA club shoot - invited to do so by that club, and yet that person has not joined ABA and has not signed anything?

Is this person insured?

Is the club insured?

Should clubs be doing this?

...not trying to stir up trouble here over the great debate again - I'm genuinely interested in the answers, as I think ht eimplications are relevant to all ABA clubs currently practicing this informal 'come and try' scheme.

[robbo]

We have a visitors book that visiting archers are asked to sign.

[robbo]

I have always thought the 3 shoot rule was the go, otherwise how do people try the sport.

Most people will not pay to join something if they are not sure they like it. :-?

Will have to check.

[Randall Wellings]

Is this a potentially dangerous practice for the individual and the club?
NO...depending on the constitutional structure of the said ABA club.
The Club concerned will have either "Probationary Member"..or a "Registered Visitor"..within the structure in their constitution.

The person coming along to try their hand at archery, having signed the appropriate book, will be covered for a period of 3 months.

Always has been

Cheers

[robbo]

Thanks Randall

I will have to read our constitution.

[Eberbachl]

The person coming along to try their hand at archery, having signed the appropriate book, will be covered for a period of 3 months

Question: Is that just because somebody said so - or does ABA provide any real (current) documentation to clubs to support the fact that a Probationary member of an ABA club will have 3 months worth of insurance? Does ABA also specify exactly what that person, and the club is or is not covered for, and for how much?

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Randall Wellings]

Seeing as this "them and us" is not going to go away..and of which I am happily in both.

I'll bring up another important point, I'm sure there are some on this forum that may have some worthwhile input to the question...

How do A.A. coaches.. whilst coaching .. have insurance cover when the association does not have current endorsement from the NCAS..under the control of the Australian Sports Commission.??...and hasn't had for quite some time.. :o :o

i'm sure that this little point would be very relevant in an insurance claim...makes you wonder just who would be covered by insurance under those circumstances.. don't it..

Luke
...not trying to stir up trouble here over the great debate again - I'm genuinely interested in the answers,
same here
cheers

Randall

[Randall Wellings]

Is that just because somebody said so - or does ABA provide any real (current) documentation to clubs to support the fact that a Probationary member of an ABA club will have 3 months worth of insurance? Does ABA also specify exactly what that person, and the club is or is not covered for, and for how much?


Luke..that is fact....besides...go and ask your local RSL for a copy of their insurance policy...they will tell you where to go..i'm sure :lol: :lol:

the person is covered the same as any other member of the Association as they are a member of the Association for that period of time...providing they have signed the appropriate book.

cheers

[Eberbachl]

This isn't a them and us question Randall I don't mean it to be - I just have genuine concern for ABA clubs relying on ABA to provide insurance. My question is simply:

Question: Is that just because somebody said so - or does ABA provide any real (current) documentation to clubs to support the fact that a Probationary member of an ABA club will have 3 months worth of insurance? Does ABA also specify exactly what that person, and the club is or is not covered for, and for how much?


I beleive the answer is no, ABA cannot or will not provide such documentation. ABA has recently made available a certificate of currency to us - but guess what - the certificate of currency had long since expired. All requests directed through our ABA branch have not been able to produce any CURRENT documentation that can confirm insurance.

As far as your question is concerned - I cannot answer that. Perhaps some AA people here know the answer.

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Marcus]

I believe this has been sorted out and is not an issue because the AA insurance actually lists 'coaches' on the policy as being covered. As long as the person is recognised by AA as a coach they are fine. The policy does not require then to be NCAS registered.

How many projectile weapons do you fire at the RSL Randall? That's a bull**** responce and you know it.

cheers!

Seeing as this "them and us" is not going to go away..and of which I am happily in both.

I'll bring up another important point, I'm sure there are some on this forum that may have some worthwhile input to the question...

How do A.A. coaches.. whilst coaching .. have insurance cover when the association does not have current endorsement from the NCAS..under the control of the Australian Sports Commission.??...and hasn't had for quite some time.. :o :o

i'm sure that this little point would be very relevant in an insurance claim...makes you wonder just who would be covered by insurance under those circumstances.. don't it..

Luke
...not trying to stir up trouble here over the great debate again - I'm genuinely interested in the answers,
same here
cheers

Randall

[Eberbachl]

Luke..that is fact....besides...go and ask your local RSL for a copy of their insurance policy...they will tell you where to go..i'm sure

I'm not an RSL member :-)

...besides - in the ABA consitution, it states that any member has the right to view any and all documentation of the association.

[robbo]

How many projectile weapons do you fire at the RSL Randall? That's a bull**** responce and you know it.


You want to try yelling bingo in a room full of old ladies. :agrue: :snipersmile: :agrue:

:lol:

[Marcus]

Good point, that's it not joining an RSL without insurance now!

BTW would you RUN an RSL without knowing the insurance policy Randall?

[Bruce]

Randall is correct the probation period is correct , this was reinforced at last years agm , along with signing a register , visitors are requested to sign a waiver form , much like the sort participants at rock climbing centres or horse riding centres ask clients to sign .All clubs should have a copy of this waiver form (Lets not have a debate about waiver forms now ):agrue:



Luke , the reason why DVA failed to appear on the certificate of currency was that there had been an era at your club level regarding affiliation ,

Also , DVA , whilst being a none 100% ABA CLUB HAS NEVER HAD FULL INSURANCE BY ABA

A club must be 100% ABA to get full insured status .

[Eberbachl]

[/quote]Luke , the reason why DVA failed to appear on the certificate of currency was that there had been an era at your club level regarding affiliation

Hi Bruce,

I am fully aware of why DVA was not on the certificate of currency, and I realise to what extent DVA can expect cover from ABA.

The issue is that the certificate of currency produced has expired (in February 2003), and is therefore not current. ABA at this time has either not been able to - or chosen not to produce a cuurent certificate.

Question: I'm not concerned with what was discussed at last year's AGM, what I am concerned about is can ABA provide a CURRENT certificate of currency showing that visiting archers are indeed covered whilst shooting at ABA clubs? It's not a difficult question, but at this time - nobody has been able to answer this.

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Randall Wellings]

The policy does not require then to be NCAS registered
That's a bull**** responce and you know it.
no greater words were ever spoken..in reference to your first quote :lol:

ball's in the other court...I am certainly not comfortable with the fact that A.A. failed to re-accredit with the NCAS...or wasn't even accredited when the coaching council was in charged..a slight oversight ..me thinks not.
Sure A.A. has gone through redevelopment and may have just missed it..but wow..what an oversight :o :o

Just to be safe, only coaching I'll be doing in the forseeable future is through ABA.. :roll: :roll:

I am sure A.A's insurance policy does require everything to be above board and that means accredited...this would most certainly be true as A.A's insurance is the same as ABA's..through the same insurance company as you would be well aware.

BTW would you RUN an RSL without knowing the insurance policy Randall?
Valid statement Marcus....but you aren't running the ABA either..therefore you are not entitled to be in possession of the policy in question..

The only issue really at hand is that ABA hasn't physically presented you with a copy of the policy...a policy which would satisfy your club or council needs..

cheers

[Eberbachl]

Oops - disregard the dodgy quoting I did :-)

...you get what I meant - I'm sure :-)

...can't edit posts in this area :-(

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Randall Wellings]

visitors are requested to sign a waiver form , much like the sort participants at rock climbing centres or horse riding centres ask clients to sign

Bruce..maybe now is the time to also point out that every ABA member ..with their renewal, in fact sign a waiver..the declaration is that we accept responsability for any injury we may sustain whilst participating in offically recognised ABA activities..and not holding the association, club or members accountable.

Not really too big an ask in this day an age..litigation wise I mean.
just another tit-bit
cheers

[OldDog]

Luke..that is fact....besides...go and ask your local RSL for a copy of their insurance policy...they will tell you where to go..i'm sure :lol: :lol:

As I an sure you are aware Randall, there is a huge difference betweeen a RSL member asking his club to see a copy of the insurance policy and a RSL branch asking the parent body to see the same. I feel for you in some regards as the fight you are putting up now is the same one I fought for years before i finally gave it away. I hope ABA come into the new era of archery before any more damage is done. Even if it is kicking and screaming. The problems are more widespread than the insurance policy and I hope they address some of the fundamental probs in the area of rules for shoot etc. I wish them luck.

[Randall Wellings]

there is a huge difference betweeen a RSL member asking his club to see a copy of the insurance policy and a RSL branch asking the parent body to see the same

too true...but DVA are not the Branch...they weren't affiliated nor have they been covered by ABA's insurance for years...

DVA are actually getting the same response as would be forth coming from the RSL club because they aren't even in the association.

A great deal of effort has been put in from both sides to rectify the situation...but a bit too much give is expected by DVA and they may just have their hands tied by the council and all...but...they may just have to live with it..to bad for their ABA members though...I feel for them.

cheers

[OldDog]

Let me rephrase that Randall and say rsl club in lieu of rsl branch. regardless of wether it is dva or any other club the response has been the same.

[Marcus]

So Randall, are you saying that if I join ABA I am not allowed to see the insurance policy?

Also I would rather coach with AA than ABA because ABA has actually said outright that ABA coaches must get their own public liability insurance while AA's policy states that AA coahces are covered.

Also prove to me that ABA has the same insurance policy as AA. It's your word Randall, and frankly I don't believe it.

[Bruce]

Marcus ,

Your statement regarding coaches and insurance is not correct .

Aba does cover there coaches completely whilst they are coaching members or prospective members .

The cover , however doesn't cover individual ABA coaches if they are coaching for profit for themselves , ie charging for there services to coach a group or individual archer .

Does AA insurance cover coaches that are making money for them selves not there club ?

I strongly doubt that , ABA coaches that coach people for profit are strongly advised to have there own public liability policys


Bruce

[Eberbachl]

Question: Can ABA provide a CURRENT certificate of currency showing that visiting archers are indeed covered whilst shooting at ABA clubs? Actually any CURRENT documentation proving insurance at all from ABA would be nice?

Can anybody answer this?

Or am I to assume that everybody just trusts ABA, and hopes they are insured?

It must be a very difficult question - I just can't see why?

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[Flame]

Hi Bruce

I live not far from an ABA club and have been following all of this debate with interest.

As you know I am a AV member but I would like to give ABA a try so I can see what happens on the other side of the fence and be more informed of your side of Archery.
Is it a case of rocking up and shooting as a guest or do you need to be a full member

Jeeesssssssssss

I'm sorry I asked

[Eberbachl]

Don't be sorry Flame - this is good healthy debate :-)

...besides - some good might come of it if ABA clubs and members somehow gain a better understanding of what they may of may not actually be covered for.

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[OldDog]

Maybe they just dont like kindy pic postin cat lovin sandgropers eh Blue flame :multi:

[2Dogs]

As one who tested AA's insurance policy many years, I must say it was useless. An archer at the Local Club grounds put an arrow through my car.

And I'll bet you find that the insurances covering the other Archery factions would find it practically useless as well............all full of loopholes.

[robbo]

Oops - disregard the dodgy quoting I did :-)

...you get what I meant - I'm sure :-)

...can't edit posts in this area :-(

:angel: :bday: :angel:

Had me confused. :wink:

[Flame]

You need to take a lawyer to shoot!

[Kunnara]

Gaday again folks...remember me??
I started this thread about 60 posts back...heehee..hope you guys are still all friends...Reading over these posts there seems to be 90% politics and 10% communication..the easiest solution it seems is to join all disciplines,
if you can afford it,take out your own insurance and shoot away.
Or we can just turn our backs on all associations and shoot and hunt by ourselves or a few mates...and then a few more mates...and a few more mates...hey i know..lets start an archery club!!!!!!!!
Regards...Kunnara

[Flame]

Bloody troublemaker :D :D :D

[Randall Wellings]

PUSSY RULES - Dogs lick their Nuts

WHY...because we can..... :fist: :fist:

[Flame]

Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

[Bruce]

Paul has raised a reaally good point .

I don't think anybody of any association will know how good an insurance policy is until it is tested in a court of Law .

We all get told from our associations that we are all covered , but it will be up to some Lawyers to sort it out .

Let us all hope that it never gets to that situation.

Bruce

[Randall Wellings]

Noel
regardless of whether it is dva or any other club the response has been the same.
The response has been yes you can view the policy at the association's administration headquarters...why is this such a "hard to accept" reality..
The ABA entity is the policy holder and the documents are kept by the Director of the Association...if you want to view the policy..go and look...

Maybe..the RSL wasn't the best example ...go Compulsory 3rd Party on your motor vehicle....you pay it and accept what you are told you are covered for to be correct.
Have you asked to view your CTP policy..I think not.

Also prove to me that ABA has the same insurance policy as AA. It's your word Randall, and frankly I don't believe it.
Frankly...bit harsh Marcus..cause frankly...I don't care. :wink: :wink: ..

you are the one with a supposed problem...when was there a claim submitted to ABA that hasn't been acted upon...lots of supposition on your part...
and as stated earlier...at least i'm covered by the Association's insurance when I coach...are you???..of that you can't be certain..

Check out A.A.s policy and tell me that it doesn't refer to accredited coaches...sure we maybe accredited by A.A. but and a big but...A.A. isn't accredited by the NCAS...check out the NACS data base if you think otherwise.
Now who acting with blind acceptance :roll: :roll:

cheers

[Eberbachl]

response has been yes you can view the policy at the association's administration headquarters...why is this such a "hard to accept" reality..


Yes, that is correct.

Any ABA member wishing to view the policy must call ABA, and make an appointment with the ABA executive, and travel to Brisbane from wherever they may reside, by themselves, and for viewing only.

I think it would be great if ABA could see that it is not possible for most of it's members to travel to Brisbane to see said documents. That would mean travelling to Brisbane from Melbourne for me. Something like 2000kms!

If there is nothing to hide, and ABA are willing for members to view this policy, then how about ABA distributes a copy of the ABA insurance policy to each branch secretary, so that members are able to go and view the policy locally?

It would be a start...I'm not insisting that ABA copies the policy and posts it to every member - just that it is made accessable to members in a fair and reasonable manner.

Cheers,

Luke.


:angel: :bday: :angel:

[robbo]

This is probably a stupid question, but is it normal practice for an organisation to send an insurance policy (or copy of) to each of it's branchs? :-?

[Eberbachl]

It's normal policy for an organisation to make it's members aware of exactly what they are and are not covered for. I bet you don't have any current documentation to tell you that Robbo, I just think you should, that's all - and each ABA branch holding a copy of the policy might be a way to make that information accessable to ABA members.

Just a suggestion :-)

Cheers,

Luke.

:angel: :bday: :angel:

[robbo]

I think I may have to do some reseach.

[Marcus]

Because this thread has gotten a long way away from context and somehow has turned into critisism of the DVA/ABA issue here are some facts to make everyone a little clearer regarding the DVA/ABA issue.

* DVA was told that we were covered for public liability claims made towards the club due to ABA member actions.

* ABA has said 'no DVA is not covered'

* DVA's condition of lease is to provide insurance information. The coucil has accepted the AA policy. We are unable to provide the ABA one.

* DVA can not stop operation while this is getting sorted, especially as many ABA head conchos don't see the problem. So it may never be changed.

* DVA must look at 3 options. Either buying our on public liability for our ABA members (at a cost of $50 per ABA member), banning our ABA members from shooting at all, or requiring that they join an association who will provide the policy. Either AA or 3DAAA.

* As the cost per head is based on projected figures DVA must pay for that cover and hope we get the members. We can not afford to do this. Thus we have chosen the second option, and recommend archers join 3DAAA AS WELL as ABA. This will be the cheapest option for them.

* Some archers will choose to not renew their ABA, while others will just join AV. That is their choice.

* DVA will remain an associate member of ABA.

* DVA will continue to run ABA rounds for it's ABA members.

* DVA is investigating the continual running of ABA 2 Days, however are nervous due to lack of policy.

* While you can all argue till you are blue in the face regarding IF ABA should provide the policy here is a simlpe fact. We have 3 competing organisations. DVA promotes all 3. 2 will show the policy and one will not. In this competitive environment where ABA is NOT the cheapest option and is not providing as much information, who do you think will attract the most members? It is NOT in ABA's best interest to continue running in this way.

* Yes AA allows for coaches to charge, in fact they recommend it.

[Randall Wellings]

It is NOT in ABA's best interest to continue running in this way.
In your opinion :lol:
* Yes AA allows for coaches to charge, in fact they recommend it.
But...and again a big butt....have your own insurance..and ABA has never attempted to stop any coach from charging for their service.

Luke...if my car was registered in Victoria and I had moved to Queensland as so many Victorian choose to do....guess what I would have to do if I wanted to see or get a copy of my CTP....off to Melbourne

May not suit ...but how many people actually ask to see their policy :o :o

cheers

[Randall Wellings]

In this competitive environment where ABA is NOT the cheapest option and is not providing as much information, who do you think will attract the most members?

DVA have made their decision very obvious...the continued "discussion" pertaining to the inferior actions of ABA in this matter only make's one consider WHY??

Perhaps DVA's decision makers feel a need to rationalise their action pertaining to their ABA members...maybe by highlighting benefits of some associations over others is nothing more than a smoke screen.. after all.. when one takes a real close look into A.A....it's not really that squeaky clean in the operational side of things is it...

Sometimes it's best to let those in admin. "run the show" and you go out and "SHOOT YOUR BOW"

cheers

[CMB50]

Don't know who else does, but i have my copy of my car insurance policy in my filing cabinet. Always make sure i read it and get a copy of it, which is never a problem as my insurance company offers it to me anyway. :wink:

[Randall Wellings]

CMB50
but i have my copy of my car insurance policy in my filing cabinet

I too have my insurance policy....but do you have a copy of your Compulsory Third Party Policy...

cheers

[Marcus]

With my Sigma which I has THird Party with I did have my policy. I have my home and car policy's, and if I ever need copies I call and they send them right out, doesn't matter what state I live in.

[Randall Wellings]

Becoming very, very tiresome..

next issue :roll:...nahh stuff it...i'm going to play with my bow :fist: :wink:

cheers

[Marcus]

I agree, this is going nowhere. End it here and see what progresses in the future.
Shoot well Randall. 8)

[BBS]

Flame
At Lilydale for non members pay a visitors fee sign the book and the form, get a committee member to watch you shoot - to make sure your safe to shoot on the course and thats it.
the next club ABA shoot is 12th Oct. need to be there by 9:30am

AA have the insurance policy on their web site - to easy.

If a member is willing to pay for copying and postage I think the policy should be sent to any member who wants a copy.

I hope FITA & IFAA come to an agreement like FITA & IBO

[Randall Wellings]

I hope FITA & IFAA come to an agreement like FITA & IBO
we can only hope

There once was a man with great vision who believed that Australia would make an ideal case study

[OldDog]

Once upon a time in a land far away. Sigh..... if only. :(

[Randall Wellings]

Sigh..... if only.

DITTO :roll: :roll:

cheers

[Flame]

Thanks BBS

[robbo]

Bugger...he left our shores at took up the helm of FITA..would be nice if someone else would take up the challenge..me thinks :D :D

cheers

You volunteering Randall. :D

[Randall Wellings]

You volunteering Randall

Robbo...the 'someone' would first have to have the endorsement of the two associations concerned...before anything else....otherwise..what would actually happen except dialog.

What I mean to say is that if both associations are prepared to look at the proposal..and discuss the notion.
Well.. **** yeh....I would be prepared to pick up on the ground work..

just how much support would be forthcoming is anybody's guess

cheers

[robbo]

You volunteering Randall. :D

I wasn't serious. :D

But the idea of someone linking the organizations does have merit.

[Randall Wellings]

just how much support would be forthcoming is anybody's guess


I know you weren't serious..
but the idea is worth debating... as stated above..it's anyone's guess

cheers