Mastering The Mind

[Aarleks]

Been musing over this since the weekend. Thought I would throw some questions to the Forum for the sake of conversation.

How much of your good scores, and more importantly your good form, come from or with a good mind set (whatever that may be for you)?
I am increasingly finding that maintaining good form will, in any given session, get me to a certain level. If I am also then thinking in the right way (good mental form? too subjective perhaps), I am capable of much more, and of much finer shooting. I think I remember Mike saying he shoots better when slightly nervous. I'm the same, all my best scores have come with a certain level of nerves and arousal.

However, when things are not going how you want them, and you are thinking yourself into a hole, how do you try to get out of it mentally?
I find that sometimes, when I am having form difficulties, simply thinking about my form will fix the problem. Other times it seems as though there is a deeper mental problem (just crazy weird perhaps :lol: ). At these times I find that psyching myself up helps a great deal (as does eating something sugary). Other times I'm at a loss...

Finally, if the mind and mind-sets do have significant effects on your form and subsequent scores (as I believe they do) how can we 'master the mind'? If there is a biomechanically ideal archer, is there a psycho-neurologically ideal one? Are there mental form techniques? When we are having mental problems should we whip out our little cushion, assume the lotus position, and meditate on the emptiness of time and space? Or should we yell C'MON!!! and punch the air (a la Lleyton Hewitt) every time we get closer to what we are looking for?






Or should we just forget about it (because there is no mind/body dualism) and simply shoot arrows? :lol: :lol:

[mbomike]

Extreeeeeeeeeeemly valid point Aarleks.
I do believe that if my mind is with archery, I shoot well.
I try not to analize my form or the target before the shot.
I analize after, thus eliminating all the "what if's"
I believe that my archery relies on at least 80 to 90% good mind set.
The rest just falls into place seamlessly.
IMO :D

[mike]

A few ideas of mine...

I reckon being a bit aggressive can help you out of a mid-tournament mental slump. No need to hurt anyone :D but you know, just tell your self that your better than the guy who's beating you (even if that is patently not true) and that you're damned if he's going to continue to beat you. That makes you start to want to win, and it also makes you try to shoot like a winner, rather than shoot like someone who's along for the ride. A bit more of the Lleyton Hewitt approach is probably a good thing...

Self-talk (I think thats what they call it :roll: ) but it has worked for me on ocasions (but has only led to victory once :cry: sometimes you just slip too far behind...)

Also, don't be scared to look at other's arrows, scores, etc. Don't dwell on it, but don't have some sort of religious thing going where you'll swear not to look at you score, their score, another target etc...don't have rules, they'll come back to bite you one day.


Don't get depressed about bad shots. That's probably the worst thing you can do. Each arrow is a new chance, and should be approach with a clear mindset...

All that stuff said, it is damn hard in disciplines like field and indoor when you've dropped a few points and the whole weekend is looking like a waste of time (PBs get out of reach, you feel you can't come within cooee of a place, you wonder why you are there...) At least in target you can come back and salvage something out of your day...

Relax and enjoy yourself -- it is your recreation time afterall, if you're not enjoying it, stop, go home, read a book -- its your weekend, no need to beat yourself up...


Anyway, thats enough of me sounding like a w*nker for a while... :-?

:bday: :silly:

[recurve boy]

I find my shooting is extremely dependent on mind set. On a very good day I will have all arrows in the gold at 70m, all in the 10 at 50m. On a bad day I'll miss the gold at 30m :roll:

If I have a bad day I try and concentrate on the basics of good form, take a coffee break or leave my sights a little off (so that I will never hit the gold and thus will not worry about it). Sometimes I find whipping out the theraband helps.

I shoot best when I am relaxed. So I find all the 'zen' things helpful. Yoga, meditation. But I have an extreme dislike of philosophers and philosophy so you will not find me pondering on the 'emptiness of time and space'*.

However prevention is better than a cure and a proper stretch helps me not have a bad day.

*First time is an artificial construct. While there is a natural ordering to events that occur its people that decided to 'time' them. Also space is not empty. You should meditate about how to unify physics or the Riemann hypothesis. Something useful. :P :P

[mbomike]

Recurve Boy

However prevention is better than a cure and a proper stretch helps me not have a bad day.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike

Don't get depressed about bad shots. That's probably the worst thing you can do. Each arrow is a new chance, and should be approach with a clear mindset...
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I couldn't agree more. You both had good points in your individual views & these I find for me are very important.
I came equal 4th last comp, could have made 3rd if I had gained 3 lousy points. I gave up from the 3rd last target onwards because I thought that I was having a bad day. Obviously not as bad as the rest of my division.

Mental Strength is the key
IMO :wink:

[DrRalph]

There is a lot of mentality in this game. Recently I was working towards my target of breaking 1000 at the ACT Champs.

Some of the mental things I worked on were

1) Building confidence in my equipment. I matched my arrows to a ridiculous extent (0.3gr across the whole set), and removed worries about my arrows from the equation. I went through each piece of equipment leadingup to the comp, and then I was able to completely forget about the gear, trust it totally and concentrate purely on myself.
2) A couple of times during the round I started to lose the 'zone' but I
gritted my mental teeth and fought back. I was not going to cave in, and I did quietly punch the air when I got back into the ten zone.
3) I found shooting with with really good archers helped me no end. Just seeing them perform up close and first hand really encourages you to lift. If everyone around you is hitting in the inner target, it seems logical that you should too.

I was more mentally drained after the comp than physically, that came the next day :)

[mbomike]

I'm going to sound like a broken CD
I agree I agree I agree.
I realy love this type of conversation It means so much for me to see that others think the same way I do. :D :D

[Aarleks]

I reckon being a bit aggressive can help you out of a mid-tournament mental slump.

Aggression intrigues me. So many great athletes in other sports use it to great advantage (Hewitt again). I've never seen any (except towards a judge) at an archery comp.


Anyway, thats enough of me sounding like a w*nker for a while... :-?

Awww... Come on Mike. Wank it up Arts student style. :lol: :lol:


Here's another question: Mike kind of touched on this with thinking that you are better than the other guy, but what about using the performances of others (eg your favourite football team's grandfinal win, Simon's Gold etc) to inspire you to better shooting? We hear a great deal about motivational talk to individuals and teams before and during competition in other sports. Does this happen in archery?

[Aarleks]

First time is an artificial construct. While there is a natural ordering to events that occur...

Ahh, but is there?? :D :D My field of study looks at plenty of people who think there is not. But that's off topic. :oops:

A couple of times during the round I started to lose the 'zone' but I gritted my mental teeth and fought back. I was not going to cave in, and I did quietly punch the air when I got back into the ten zone.

This is what interests me. I think if you can identify what it is that can get and keep you in your 'ten zone' (I like that phrase - sport specific and goal specific) and you practice it, you will have an edge over those who do not.

We identify and practice the physical form and technique that is best, how can we do the same for our mental game?

[mbomike]

People try the motivational talks once in a while with me, it seems to bounce off,
Before the tournament I'm visualising the targets & thier zones, the type of terain I'm shooting on. And especially focusing out any other distractions (hardest one to achieve).
If I miss a zone or worse still a target. Other archers around are concerned for me and are trying to analize the shot and explain or console. Whilst this is appreciated, it also bounces off. For I'm trying to get back in the ZONE.
I was told to focus and burn a hole through the target with my minds eye.
This is where my aggression comes out in archery, I try to focus with deadly hatred towards the target zone pinpoint, every distraction around right at that moment fades into the distance.

[Aarleks]

If I miss a zone or worse still a target. Other archers around are concerned for me and are trying to analize the shot and explain or console.

Turning that around, I have found that this is often (depending on the person) a form of passive aggression in archery. At one competition in particular an archer on a neighbouring target gave me lots of 'friendly' advice. I know he was trying to psych me out. All he was saying to me what he thought was wrong with my form... not how to fix it.

So mbfmike has pointed out another skill that must be learned and practiced - focusing things out.

[mbomike]

There is another theory that I havn't researched fully yet.
I have been told that the human mind runs on clock cycles
Lets say for arguments sake that once per second your mind takes a snapshot of youself, surroundings, feelings, thoughts etc etc.
Then analizes those statistics and makes decisions on what to do next.

Apparently it is achievable to be able to fractionalise that timebase to 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 size and use that to look at yourself.

Scenario
You are driving in a car and have an accident. The whole accident seems to take forever to finalise.
And for some reason you can see individual shards of glass, people on sidewalk looking, vertually time stands still.

This subliminal information can apparently be tapped and used at the time of release, focusing on a target etc etc

I hope I made some sense :D

[mike]

Aarleks;

Thinking about it now, when I have been shooting really well, it just feels like its going to work. You walk up to the line/peg and just know what's required and you just do it. When you're in this 'zone' the ten feels easier to aim at (I guess this is like the 'seeing it like a basketball' thing that batsmen get) and releasing well is just a matter of course.

But then, sometimes, out of the blue, something jolts you out of the zone. Perhaps a person in your group tells a joke, you think about work (well some of us, anyway -- Maccas doesn't leave much for thought :wink: ) whatever it is, you are suddenly in a different frame of mind, and the b*tch is that it can be quite subtle. But one thing is obvious, it no longer feels right when you draw, aim, shoot.

What I have found works to counter this (I mean counter, the real trick is to not get distracted, but that is REALLY hard in this game) is to visualise your next shot before you take it. Imagine every detail, remember how it feels to execute a really good shot. Then remind yourself that you're at the line to shoot tens and thats damn well what you're gonna do...

Agression works I think by making your mind more "one-tracked". This is probably why men make good archers! :wink:

mbfmike;

Very interesting. The eye can pick up a "frame" of information about every 1/10th of a second. Thats why videos seem so smooth -- they generally run at about 1/24ths of a second per frame. But curiously, the brain is capable of picking up information at smaller intervals (its probably more like you remember different bits of that 1/10th frame). Under stress it must pick up more details, creating that slowing down effect.

Think of the times when you've shot an arrow and have somehow been aware of your last point of aim -- and found that that is where it has gone -- this probably is the reason.

[mbomike]

Yes.
& also being able to slow the clock pulse, for analisis.
Bringing the subconcious forward to the concious mind.

I don't believe its mumbo jumbo. I feel the strengths of the mind havn't been fully tapped.
Hopefully I will be talking to this person next week, & recieve more enlightenment on the subject. :new-alien:

[Pete]

Or should we just forget about it (because there is no mind/body dualism) and simply shoot arrows? :lol: :lol:

Although there is no mind/body dualism the mind sitll exists as electrical signals in the brain. Perhaps someone could develop some electrodes that stimulate the right parts of the brain to enchance archery performance.

[recurve boy]

Ahh, but is there?? My field of study looks at plenty of people who think there is not. But that's off topic.

Damn philosophers. But that's off topic too.

The 'zone' a lot of atheletes like to talk about is known as 'flow state' in science circles. Under certain stresses your brain actually relaxes after some period of being excited. Happens in atheletes, when playing video games etc ... you can easily observe its affects. when you try something new you have to really pay attention with what you are doing, as you practice and get better you can eventually perform most actions without really thinking about it.

So perhaps th mental edge Alex is looking for is something we all do anyway. Think through your shot sequence. The next best thing to shooting is thinking about shooting.

[mbomike]

Or should we just forget about it (because there is no mind/body dualism) and simply shoot arrows? :lol: :lol:

Although there is no mind/body dualism the mind sitll exists as electrical signals in the brain. Perhaps someone could develop some electrodes that stimulate the right parts of the brain to enchance archery performance.

Off topic (sorry) :oops:
Hold on a minute there Aarleks & Pete.
I have recently watched a program on the telly regaurding heart transplant recipients.
Apparently some patients are experiencing abnormal behavioural traits.
IE. recent obsession for cheesy puffs, like rap music, cleaning obsession etc etc.

Curious to find out why, the doctors held tests and spoke to the heart doners familys. Only to find the doners had the exact same traits.
Poses the question is there a memory in living tissue, not just our brain.

Too take this a bit further...If you will permit (I think it is a bit relevent with this thread)
Heart transplant patients MUST take anti rejection medicine(for obvious reasons). For the rest of their lives.
One heart transplant women in the States has recognised the fact that she is living with someone else inside her, and accepted that person. Gave up her medication against her doctors wishes and warnings of maximum 2 weeks life expentancy b4 her body rejects the doner heart.
She is still active mobile & ticking along at so far 6 months.

There is more to the human psychy than meets the eye. :o

[recurve boy]

Yes.
& also being able to slow the clock pulse, for analisis.
Bringing the subconcious forward to the concious mind.

I don't believe its mumbo jumbo. I feel the strengths of the mind havn't been fully tapped.
Hopefully I will be talking to this person next week, & recieve more enlightenment on the subject. :new-alien:

I think you remember those missing bits becasue the brain is very good at extrapolating things. If you're reading this post right now you probably don't notice the two blind spots you have where the optic nerve attaches to the eyeball. You don't even notice one if you close one eye. Your brain is obviously doing something very clever to fill in details it doesn't see.

That 'people don't use the full potential of their brains' schtick is BS. We simply don't understand what is going on. Figuring out the mental aspects of archery is the same as figuring out the technical aspects. We figure out what is happening and there will be something we can do to 'practice' it.

[mike]

As a scientist (well, will graduate this year, but like to think of myself as one in spirit at least) I have to agree with you Recurve Boy.

One never ceases to wonder at the ability of science to take the romance out of things. But what it replaces it with is more beautiful in my opinion. Any way, off topic...

When you think about it, shooting is an entirely mechanical process. But our brains are at the controls of that machinery. Once the machinery is configured properly (ie good basic form) then it is simply down to the operating system. You just have to weed out the bugs (like the "punching the trigger" script and the "target panic version 56.345 error message")

Having a good mental approach, principally through visualisation, is, to keep the analogy going, like writing a neat, logical and concise program with an effective and clean repeat function. I know bugger all about programming, but I bet that if a programmer tried to write a shooting script, it would take a few versions before it worked well.

[mbomike]

Digital electronics is another hobby of mine, which also entails programming Pic micrprocessors.
And yes it sometimes can take many versions of script b4 its right :x

[mbomike]

That 'people don't use the full potential of their brains' schtick is BS. We simply don't understand what is going on.

Yes I agree with your analagy moreso. :wink:

[Aarleks]

Figuring out the mental aspects of archery is the same as figuring out the technical aspects. We figure out what is happening and there will be something we can do to 'practice' it.

Word! Totally what I am getting at.

When you think about it, shooting is an entirely mechanical process. But our brains are at the controls of that machinery. Once the machinery is configured properly (ie good basic form) then it is simply down to the operating system. You just have to weed out the bugs (like the "punching the trigger" script and the "target panic version 56.345 error message")

Word again!
So are we thinking correct structure (scripting) and correct functioning (working out the bugs like TP 56.345) make a better archer? Similar to biomechanics/body alignment and technique? Sounds like a good thing.

I suppose scripting would involve visualisation mostly. You visualise often (on the bus to McDonalds, putting the fries in the frier, etc :icecream: ) so that when you are actually in the shot process/competition any errors stand out. The trick then is to know what to do with that information. I guess this is where a certain level of aggression, self talk, and the other things we have mentioned come in handy.

[clever_guy]

Visualization is the only useful thing mentioned so far. It's nice to theorize about the mechanism, but it isn't going to get you far practically.

Visualizing on it's own isn't going to get you far though - there are thousands of FITA 1,000 level shooters that try talk about "visualization" and for them it is nothing more than mental masturbation. First you need the fine co-ordination, technique, strength and endurance that comes with a high volume of training

[clever_guy]

http://www.usarchery.org/news/articles/The%20Development%20of%20Psychological%20Talent.pd f

Turn on the friggin editing feature on the forum...

:roll:

yeesh

-CG

[NOCK HUNTER]

I think we would all shoot well, if we could leave our brain at home :o
(just shoot no thinking)

[Oldtimer]

A chicken and egg question:
Do we shoot well when we are confident, or are we confident when we shoot well ?

[Aarleks]

Indeed. :D

[clever_guy]

"A chicken and egg question: Do we shoot well when we are confident, or are we confident when we shoot well ?"

No...it doesn't have to be that vague. Confidence comes from skills and knowledge of past accomplishments. In other words if you can shoot a 1200 in practice consistantly, you *know* that you can shoot 1.200 in competition (given fair weather conditions, and no equipment issues). If you can only shoot a 1,000 there there is no point in planning to shoot a 1.200 in competition - as that kind of thing almost never happens. Your training plan should include goal planning (and achievement) in several timeframes so that you can see progression, and increase your confidence as you progress.

You have to be able to trust your skills and accomplishments, and see progression to re-enforce future goal attainment. The worst position to be in is being full of hope (and fear) about how you will shoot in any given tourney, only to have your hopes dashed with performance. Rather have an implimentable plan to get to a long range goal, and achievable goals along the way.

More than one archer has developed a bad case of performance anxiety or related malidies (like flinching) because they have found themselves shooting above their normal skill level (performance spikes happen as you progress) - without really believing that they can shoot that well.

-CG

[archerybob]

ROUTINE.........in a physical and mental sense! you can never be 100% at a comp or at training. if you keep to a routine you can deal with any distraction!

[DrRalph]

Despite the fact that I am only a lowly 1000 FITA shooter :fist:
I agree with CG in the second post. I set out from not having shot a FITA to getting my 1000 FITA this year. In practise I had shot PBs at the distances that added up to over 1000, I had just not strung a set of 4 together. I also had to keep focussed once I knew I had made it.


I was confident I was shooting at the 65-70 rating level required, and if I hold it together all day I could do it. I went into the comp not even dreaming of breaking 1200 let alone placing. The field consisted of AIS, World ranked archers and Olympians! My next goal is 1100, and I want to eventually show up at the nationals and not embarass myself :)

[clever_guy]

"I am only a lowly 1000 FITA shooter"

Don't take it personally, there are always more 1,000 shooters than 1,300 shooters out there - and at some point everyone was a 1,000 level shooter (though relatively few ever hit 1,300+).

I don't want to discourage anyone, but at the same time have some realistic goals to go with the dreams - it makes bad days and performance dips easier to take. There is no reason to think that anyone couldn't become a 1,200 shooter given enough hard work and smart training, its all up to the shooter.

;)

-CG

[Oldtimer]

"I want to eventually show up at the nationals and not embarass myself"

Dr Ralph - the only person who, deep down, really cares how well or otherwise you shoot is you. Everyone else is too busy caring about how they are shooting, so it is inpossible to embarasses yourself at any tournament. Come along and have fun. (Even the 1300+ shooters are too busy caring about their own shooting, or they are unless they are having an 'off' day and their competitors aren't !).

[DrRalph]

"I want to eventually show up at the nationals and not embarass myself"


I meant that purely in terms of my own perception of myself. I'm sure no one else will worry about it. :)

So far I have had a lot of fun at tournaments, and hopefully I will continue to do so, but I feel that some level of seriouslness is needed to keep the personal motivation to train and so on going.

I will come to the Nationals, if only to shoot with more Recurve archers!

[andy]

Don't think about the shot just shoot it! Well in tournaments anyway! Practice should be to practice the shot and think what you are doing! In a competition if something goes wrong DONT try to fix it, it usually gets worse, after an arrow or two it's more than likely going to fix it's self anyway!