D loops - to use or not to use?

[Eberbachl]

Hands up those that shoot D loops!

Hands up those that don't!

Hands up those that cant remember!

...I switched from Barebow to sights yesterday (Bowhunter Unlimited), and had some great help and advice on equipment setup from David and Marcus Anear (THANKS!).

One of the things that David recommended that I do was use a D loop. Now... I'm not saying that they are bad for a second, but I had alot of trouble, the loop kept twisting, wouldn't stay at the same height, I couldn't get the peep to align consistently, I punched myself in the face when it came undone OUCH! :rolleyes etc.etc...

I finally took the D loop off, replaced the rope on my Cascade 8 Release Aid, fitted my old trusty tie on nock, and an eliminator.

Now after the removal of the D loop I've only had a few shots, but it seems to be very stable, and the peep is also seeming to behave itself.

I know many many people use D loops succesfully, so what did I do wrong (apart from not tying it on properly when it came undone, which is pretty obvious:D)???

Do you think they are good, or ...otherwise?

If anyone knows some real advantages/disadvantages of using either system (or indeed another system which I haven't heard of) I'd love to hear about it!

Cheers!

:) :) :)

[Marcus]

I don't use them.

From what I've seen because the loop is tied above and below the nock if you twist it it will either allow the release to come off the loop or it will twist the main string. If you twist a string release it does neither.

To me there is no reason to shoot a d loop and too many bad things about them. IMHO if a change has more bad points than good points it's not worth the change.
However I am a very old school target shooter and believe that if Terry Ragsdale shot 4x300 Fita indoor scores at Vegas in 1976 with a 4 wheel bow then I can do it with a 2 wheel Mach 5.
:)

[Eberbachl]

mmmmmmm...good point about Terry Ragsdale!

I've been shooting a fair bit since Sunday, and despite a multitude of other problems I'm having, I've been pretty happy with the rope release directly on string method.

One small issue is that the rope from the release seems to be pushing the serving below the nock down quite badly. I'm shooting mono center serving (simply a remnant from the barebow setup). I wonder if I go to that diamondback stuff for a center serving it would stop this problem:confused

One of the arguments from the pro D loop camp that I've heard is that it is faster. Personally I would have to see the same bow shoot through a chrono with both methods before I belived that ;)

[Marcus]

Hmm, while I could see that the release may in theory be faster (although slow motion footage proves that the rope if out of the way in the first few millimetres) I would think the added weight of the loop on the string would be a counter for that. I would be socked if you got an extra 1 fps from it. Maybe on a rainy day we should drag the chrono out.
I would reserve with fast flight type serving and also make sure you serve it tightly. Most mono breaks easily when over tightened but fast flight doesn't (well requires more force).

[Eberbachl]

Yep, we should get the chrono out and check, I reckon the added weight of the D loop would slow it down if anything. Although which is heavier, a tie on nock + eliminator, or d loop.

I'll definitely re-serve with Fastflight.

I've been playing with the chrono a fair bit this week, and the Stratus Plus is now doing 304 FPS with ACE 570's. I'm not happy with the 570's at the moment though, I can get a perfect paper tear every time, but from 48lbs to 60lbs I just can't bring the bare shaft in.....mmmmmm more playing! :D

[Marcus]

That's funny because I get a crap tear but a perfect bare shaft. Go figure.
I would guess a nock and eliminator would be about the same weight. We must be talking grains difference.

I would be interested to see what I get from the Mach 5 and my 570's. My Carbon Techs pumped out a whopping 225 fps. I expect about 235 from the ACE's. Of course in target speed is no substitute for accuracy.

[Eberbachl]

Yeah, you're right about the accuracy part, but to me in field, speed is *almost* as important...I just wish I could have both:D

Interestingly enough, I did re-serve with Diamondback this morning, re-tied my nock on and replaced my eliminator, and hey presto, the bare shaft (although still a little left) is alot closer to the group.

Anyway, it's shooting pretty well now, I'll just go out and do some longer distance group shooting to see how the tune really is. The rest is up to me :cool

[Marcus]

Interesting your serving fixed that problem. I replaced my arrow rest with a shoot over instead of a Barner drop down and my left right tears went away.

Grouping is hard to tell at 18m. Especially as you don't want to shoot too many arrows on one target.

The speed vs accuracy is the best bit about field in my opinion.

[Eberbachl]

Yeah, weird, but like I said, a little left stil but alot better and I think ceratainly acceptable now.

Speed vs Accuracy is the big compromise about archery, and I reckon on could write a book about it. But I agree that whilst being a pain in the neck at times it's definitely one of the things that draws me to field.

The nice thing now is that shooting Bowhunter Unlimited I'm not bound by that silly 50lb rule anymore - YAY open slather!

Not really, as I'm now bound by the 300(read 309!) FPS speed limit. But still, I can get it a heap faster now than with fingers, which is nice:)

[Marcus]

Yeah I'ld prefer more speed for field as well, love being 5 yars out and still hit the centre.

So how is the bow going without the D loop now it's been a week or so?

[Eberbachl]

The bow is going great now without the d-loop.

I've been playing again, and I think with the current tune it's doing about 296 FPS - still no slouch.

The non- d-loop system I love, especially after the diamondback center serving was installed to replace the mono. With the mono serving, the release rope was pushing the serving down, but the diamondbak serving is alot more stable. The theory is that the diamondback is maybe a little faster as well, hence the bare shaft showing not quite as stiff. And my tie on knock with eliminator is howing no signs of movement on the diamondback either.

I've gone to a slighly longer stabilizer now, to give me more stability in aiming, and to help with a more consistent bow arm form. It's right on the 12" limit now, but fairly heavy (relative to it's weight) which seems to give me good stability.

Read the latest post about my sight review for the story on my new Hoyt Micro3D sight. I haven't shot it with the new sight yet, that's tomorrow's test! But the new sight looks good:)

[Marcus]

I really noticed the stabilizer issue with it on my bow. I have no idea how you shoot with that. WHen I'm relaxed mine doesn't move at ALL. Not even a ring on the target. When I eventually setup a BU bow it's go to be a prblem for me I know.
What speed did you get when it was at 49#?
Must admit I'm kinda keen on the Diamondback stuff, very impressive.
I'm really looking forward to seeing tha sight, might try to come down tomorrow night depending on what time I finish work.

[Eberbachl]

Shooting Barebow with fingers and ACE 570's I was getting around 270-275 FPS at 49lbs.

Shooting with a short stabilizer is all I've ever known, so it seems natural to me. I must say with your long rod the other day it felt weird! But definitely a whole lot more stable to aim with.

I think the diamondback stuff is very cool. Do you know how it differs from braided fastflight (not just regular fastflight serving, but the braided stuff)?

I wish I could get the bow not to move at all! When I'm feeling super good, I still get movement of the pin all around the 5 on the indoor. Maybe the slightly longer rod will help.

What would be really scary is to tape a laser pointer to my bow and see just how much I move!!!

...not a new idea I know, but still a scary thought nonetheless:)

[Marcus]

I've been thinking of buying a laser pointer to try and shoot with as a training aid. You can never be too steady. We did it a few years ago when they cost $700 (we borrowed one). Very interesting. Of all the people we tested mine moved the least (gloat) but the funny thing was almost everyone released at the same point in the laser's movement.

Not sure with the serving, not something I know much about, I don't play much with things like that. If it groups I leave it.

[Eberbachl]

WOW $700 bucks!

Can't you get them from the novelty stands at the VIC market for around 10 bucks now???

......or am I dreaming?

At any rate, I think it would be a very interesting excercise:D

[Marcus]

That was 10 years ago. Only uni's had them for doing lectures with. We snuck around a uni camaps with one being pests with it, now every kid has one.
Market is a good idea, should go. Don't want to pay $50 for one.

[Eberbachl]

mmm, yeah, I think you can get them from the market, I might go down next week (school holidays! the joys of being a teacher:D) and have a look.

[Marcus]

Saw this and thought I would add that one reason to shoot a DLoop is that they prevent nock oinch on shorter bows. Not really a problem on say a 41" UltraTec, but on a 36" CyberTec it may become an issue.

[Eberbachl]

I don't think nock pinch will be a problem on the (AWESOME) CyberTec...my Magnatec for hunting is around the same length and has been fine.

BTW, after our old discussion about laser pointers I bought one on the weekend for $5 Bucks from the Bundoora Market ...cool, something else to play with.

BTW...I love the new look forum :D

[Marcus]

maybe even shorter then, that's what I read. Single cam may also create more pinch.

$5!!!!

Where is the bundoora market????? :eek :eek :eek

[James Park]

I now use a D-loop on each of my bows.
Several reasons: they tuned better, it is better with X10 nocks (less chance of them falling off the string), less chance of the serving moving, the peep stays lined up a little easier.
I have a tie-on nocking point both above and below the nock, and the D-loop above and below the tie-ons.

[mike]

D-loops make every thing easier, I think, but for me they have a major drawback. Since I shoot a stan, I have found that the stan feels much nicer to shoot with the release rope, not a off a D-loop. A D-loop I have found makes a hinge type back tension release, like all the Stan models, react as if they had been set much coarser. If I go to a D-loop I have to rotate the half moon in the release by as much as 25 - 30 degrees in the finer direction in order to aproximate the nice feel of the release with a release rope.

Other than that, I prefer the ease of a d-loop and basically recommend them, because they are easy to put on, help provide nock location ( although I would still use a brass ring locator or some other such thing to be sure) and it is so much quicker to load the release aid for a shot!!!

I don't get too fussed about a little serving movement. In fact, I'm not very fussy in general! :cool

[Bruce]

I have played around with D loops and found them to be of no real advantage at my draw length and set up type . just another thing to go wrong I still like the KISS method of bow setup.

[James Park]

At the Nationals, about 60% of the top archers used D loops.

[2Dogs]

I tried a D-Loop when i started shooting again, but had trouble setting them up, and went back to old faithful....elimanator button & rope on string.

Did quite a bit of reading on the Retreat Messages board, and many of the worlds top Target Archers post on there. Most of them use a D-Loop.

Dave Cousins said that from his/Hoyts testing a d-loop with a tied on nock point under the arrow, with the loop tied under the knot and slighly above the nock was the most acurate setup for a twin cam bow.

Having seen video footage of the different ways the arrow come out of the bow between a loop and not having one....I figured I would persist with the loop.

I found them much more accurate shooting my carbons at indoor targets. I believe that the arrow recovers much faster.

Really you have to test them yourself and see how they go. They seem to suit my shooting style and setup.

[Marcus]

I'ld be interested in trying he TruBall D Loop with a rope release. Anyone tried one of the screw on D loops?

[Kuru]

I wouldn't mind trying one of those, their speed nocks also look interesting

[Derbytown]

Here's what Bob Ragsdale has to say about string loops:

"Eliminates arrow-falloff at full draw.
- Makes nocking point location less critical.
- No need to re-nock after a let-down.
- No serving wear from release aid contact.
- Assures easy one-handloading
- Releases can remain attached and ready to go.
- Eliminates gaps in serving from up pressure on nocking point.
- Controls peep sight rotation.
- Eliminates nock warping due to pinch at full draw.
- Allows release aids to be at an angle rather than only level.
- Makes shorter length bows easier to work with.
- Extends maximum available sight range area.
- Prevents arrow from sliding down the string during the shot.
- Prevents release aid rope slap with high cheek anchor.
- Improves shoulder alignment.
- Loop length can modify draw length of bow.
- Eliminates chin slap from inward swinging release aid ropes.
- Can be used with all non-rope release aids.
- Reduces string vibration noise."
Hope this helps. Be safe.
Shoot Straight
Derbytown :D