Good looking field course

[Marcus]

Check out the photos of this course in Holland, looks like fun!

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3283

[James Park]

I have heard about that course before. Incredibly impressive and great photos.
The World Field in Italy had quite a number like that as well - including a 55M downhill target for which I set my sight on 40M and shot an X.
Never see anything like them in Australia (which is a pity).
Prior to the World Field in Austria (1998), Leigh Cornish and I looked all round Melbourne for some realkly steep terrain, and there just isn't any steep enough. Best we could do was practice on some quite steep hills out west of Melbourne.
On the Italian course I shot very well indeed and scored 348, and then was amazed to find that one of the Europeans shot 358, which just seemed impossibly good for such a difficult course. Shooting at Sherbrooke after Italy seemed simple - it is just so flat in comparison.

[Marcus]

Have you shot at Geelong Trophy Bowhunter's Jim? Similar angles to the ones in the photo. Shot my PB IFAA round there too.

[James Park]

I have often heard about GTB, but never shot there. What I have heard sounds very good.

[Marcus]

Yeah I'ld love to shoot some IFAA there again (hint Bruce hint!) Only course I have seen where if you missed the target it may fly up into the air , come down and hit the back of the butt. (At least I swear it was that steap)

[Bruce]

Marcus, I get your hint(subtle as it was) I will look at the calender and see what we can do. We only have 14 field on the front half I plan to set up 14 hunters on the back steep section once that is done I will organise a shoot for you guys , 14 field , 14 hunter .

[Marcus]

Swweeeeeeettttt!!!!!
God way of doing it really, shoot 2 rounds in one day!

[Steve B]

Bruce, when you have it organised for the guys in Melb, don't forget us country folk at Phoenix, I think there are a few here that would love to par-take. BTW was a pleasure to shoot with you at the Nationals ( That should let you know who I am )

[mike]

Is it possible for us FITA club shooters to shoot too? Or do we have to join ABA first? I would like to shoot the course, but joining ABA for one shoot would be a little excessive...

Shooting an 'extreme' course (compared to Sherbrooke) might rekindle an interest in field archery (an interest I think I well and truly lost after the recent Selection Trial - field is just too frustrating and is too much of a 'good way to spoil an otherwise nice walk")

Only thing is getting there, where is GTB?

[Marcus]

Firstly welcome to Steve B, great to see some more ABA club's posting on here.
Secondly I'ld just like to say that GTB is one of the most forward thinking ABA clubs in terms of allowing shooting of AV members. I've shot there twice and really enjoyed the people and course. Mike I'ld be shocked if hey didn't allow AV shooters. Alot of Werribee archers are members so there are alot of AV shooters in the club.

Where is GTB? About 15 minutes outside of Geelong. You head off to a stud farm and then up this steep windy dirt road where you have to concentrate on making sure you don't drift too far to the left or your day will be cut short. The club is on some Cow Farming area with green rolling slopes and the course in the bush to the side.
Long drive but worth it.

[L-Roy]

Marcus,
"---GTB is one of the most forward thinking ABA clubs in terms of allowing shooting of AV members." ????????????????

[Marcus]

OK firstly I didn't mean they shoot AV members. :)

In Australia we have 2 diferent archery organisations, ABA (Australian Bowhunting Assoc) and AA (Archery Australia). AV (Archery Victoria) is the state body for AA.
There have been a long time split between the 2 groups and in some cases just don't ever mix. My club is the only one that allows both (and due to this is frowned apon by ABA) and GTB while 100% ABA has an excellent relashionship with AV shooters.
Consider them like the NFAA and NAA.

[Robert Halley-Frame]

I would like to see greater interaction between the associations but there is one major underlying factor that has been brought to my attention.

ABA insurance only covers their members on ABA grounds, it does not cover them at other association sites. ( this was advised to me by an ABA member as they wish to shoot the AA round prior to the World Masters Games) Still trying to work on that one.... AA Insurance I believe currently covers at any venue. Consequently how can we invite ABA members to an AV club to compete?

It would seem sensible to have one insurance that covers all, the greater the numbers would also possibly reduce the premium per head. Greater voice and leverage..

I heard recently that NSW had taken out insurance with a shooting association, consequently due to the size of the combined association premiums were more affordable. I cant confirm this but it was brought up at the recent world field trial.


It might be worth starting another thread on this topic..
:D :D

[L-Roy]

Thanks Marcus. I surely hoped not. Just my attempt at a little levity on the situation! :wink:

[Marcus]

archers1st

We have been doing alot of looking into this one and have found these things.

1) AA's insurances does cover ABA shooters shooting at an AA/AV tournament or club shoot.
2) ABA WILL NOT provide a copy of their insurance to anyone. We only have Syd Green's word, and he is very anti-AA.
3) You do not have to be a member of a club to join ABA, thus their insurance should allow them to shoot anywhere, from their farm to any club ground.

Basically the problem is that we have met NOONE in ABA who actually has read the policy. Even people at the insurance company are not allowed to read it, it's marked as classified. (sourced from an insurance agency contact)
So invite the ABA shooters, maybe you'll even turn some into Tea-Drinkers. :)

[Robert Halley-Frame]

..

[Robert Halley-Frame]

Without confirmation of insurance in black and white I dont think any club should take on the responsibility. To not be able to have a copy of the insurance policy is totally unacceptable( how do you know what your cover and risks are?)

I had asked for a letter from ABA club, and subject to receiving would allow competition.


Would you insure yourself without getting a policy?

The matter has not progressed to date. I would like to have these members shoot at our club but without confirmation of insurance it will not happen.

:(

[Marcus]

I believe that if you want to know details of the insurance you ask Sid Green who use to run ABA (may still do) an he says yes or no.
I've ben trying to get it as a member of our club's executive without success.
Insurance is a dirty word right now. ABA use it as a means to prevent ABA and AA mixing. :(

[mike]

Why on earth is it so hard? I mean, it really isn't that special, the priviledge to shoot at another ascociation's club. I have no problem with ABA members shooting at my club if they want to and I would sure hope the feeling is mutual. If its an insurance issue then they have to get together to bring the two together. Both asscociations are shooting themselves in the foot.

Think about it -- the insurance companies must be loving it, at the moment they do not have to deal with one unified body. They can play our respective associations for fools.

Last time I checked, we at the "FITA clubs" shoot bows and arrows. I visited Lilydale Bowmen (prominent ABA club) once and guess what, they shoot bows and arrows too! Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that mean we have something in common???

If the problem is that there are a few people at the top of our respective organisations who are caught up in some pathetic bickering match between the two organisations then we either need to kick those idiots out or sit back and wait for the fees to just rise and rise and rise...

I have heard before that there are a few senior ABA people who don't like FITA clubs and vice-versa. Well the fact is it is not their place to be like that. You would agree I'm sure Marcus, if you have the privilege to sit on an executive committee then you leave you bull**** personal baggage at the door before you make decisions.

Archery does not deserve to have a 'good deal' from anyone whilst we have this rediculous element at the top.

There, I've said my bit!!! :-?

[Marcus]

Yeah but their bows are camo!

No I agree, it's very very frustrating and pathetic. Unfortunatly the people in power stay there and corrupt it because most sit back and say "well if you don't like it you do the job." Cop out statement that.

The way I see it ABA clubs need to step up and say "ABA is limiting our options, they can have our membership as long as they provide us with more shooting options."

Of course those who join DVA don't have that issue. However ABA won't make us a ABA club, just an affiliate, because we have AV too.

I'll keep my options open depending on who gets made in charge of AA. Certain people could very well make me switch to IFAA/3D full time.

[Eberbachl]

Some good thoughts going on here...

The current insurance issues are of concern, but of course no ABA member really knows what they are covered for to my knowledge anyway. I have spoken to some people who have actually read the policy, but that was way back in the early days.

As far as shooters from one association shooting at another club, of course it should be encouraged! I have not ever known any members of club or the club committees to be against this in principle, but the organisation stopping it.

A perfect example is the annual IFAA indoor at Lilydale bowmen. Last year (or was it the year before?:)) we asked the club if AV members could participate in this shoot. The club welcomed the idea, but of course discovered that ABA's policy was that if any AV member was shooting, not only would that person not be covered, but ABA would pull the insurance from the whole shoot!!!!

A very disturbing practice methinks...

What I would really love of course, is an end to all of this petty bickering, and one association to cover target, field, 3D etc etc etc.

:o One association for all :o

......just my thoughts :D

[James Park]

I agree Luke, one association would be best. I think most archers want that.

[Bruce]

I have to be very careful here , But .

I think we need to start from the bottom up and start from somewhere.


I think that the best way for now is to wign visiting archers in as visitors to your clubs . all archers need to participate and mix together . only when we start to support each other at a club level can we start making noises to our both our governing bodies .


I am going to try and bring this topic up from the floor at the national AGM this year ( october)


Marcus , I will contact Alan and see if I can get a copy or description of AA insurance to get some ideas from

When the shoot Happens at Geelong you will all be invited .


we have no problems even if your bows are funny colors and you use them funny sighty things ( oops I use them I must be starting to turn to the dark side)

[Robert Halley-Frame]

Bruce

The AA Insurance document is available on the AA Website as a word document and is available to any member. It is normally sent out to state associations and clubs each year.

address is:-

http://archeryaustralia.bizland.com/documents/insurance_manual.doc

[Steve B]

I find this an interesting conversation, (and thanks for the welcome to Marcus I appreciate that very much) I was in the AAA in 1966 when I first signed up with Ferntree Gully Archery Club, which became Knox City Archers and is now defunk, I might get into trouble as well , but thats tuff luck , I am a paid up memeber of ABA and ABA is around cause of people like me, if they dont like my words sack me...grin.... but we all have the common interest of shooting arrows and we should promote the "sport" after all as one of our guys says, our future is three feet tall. One insurance policy, and many disciplines of the sport is what we should be aiming at, shoot me, sack me, I dont care I just wanna shoot arrows and enjoy the conversations with others that have this common interest called archery, maybe both AA and ABA national bodies need to be told this by their members.......

[Marcus]

Yeah that IFAA Indoor event was such a shame. I was planning on shooting that one as I really enjoy all forms of IFAA.
Even not having one org is OK, as long as the seperate bodies co-operate and shoot together, that will make the sport as a whole grow. Also I tend to prefer more people in ABA than AV and it would've been a real shame had I never met them.

[2Dogs]

Interesting.

I attended another 3DAAA shoot last weekend that was held at Mt Petrie Bowman. Mt Petrie is an AA Club.

At the presentations the Vice Pres for 3DAAA got up and made an announcement that 3DAAA & AA are in the process of combining. He said in his speech that in Australia there are few too any archers to warrant having different systems to run them. Archery in Australia needs one voice to the Government.

All the Archers cheered and applauded.

His comments were reinforced by Greg Goebels the Pres of Mt Petrie & AA board member.

I think ABA had better get on the train soon cause.........times are a changin..

All I can say is ABOUT BLOODY TIME

[Marcus]

That is excellent news. Only question is, will AA do something with the 3D or just sit there?

[James Park]

I think an important point is to retain the diversity of what we cover in our different disciplines, and to make this diversity available to all of us.
For example, I would love to have some of the top ABA archers try FITA target. I think there is a richness in having both the FITA and IFAA field rounds, they are both interesting to shoot, and I think "both sides" would enjoy the other round.

[2Dogs]

I don't think it's the intention of AA to do something with 3D. The 3D will come under AA's banner, but will most likely be run by a type of Sub Committee.

It will most likely continue to run in the format it's in now, but you only have to join 1 organisation and guys from 3DAAA can shoot any Target Shoots and Visa Versa.

There will be like a 3DAAA tour and a Target tour so to speak, but we all belong to the one organisation....................the organisation of AUSTRALIAN ARCHERS.

I'm only guessing about this stuff so I'm no authority on what's really going on. Just relaying the talk from the last shoot.

It's just great to see acually this coming together

The future looks good

[James Park]

Paul,
I think that is a good model. It keeps the discipline enthusiasts running the discipline, and gets us the advantage of a bigger group of archers in total as seen by the Government (for example), as well as allowing cross discipline participation without the current insurance problems.

As I understand the insurance issue, AA insurance only covers AA members shooting at AA grounds, and I would presume that ABA would be the same. So getting under one body with different disciplines would seem to get around this.

[2Dogs]

Jim,

The insurance issue has a lot to do with this move as well.

3DAAA is very family orientated and has large numbers, but no accreditation for coaches. AA has the Coaching accreditation but smaller numbers.

As I understand it by 3DAAA combining with AA the public liability insurance gets a hell of a lot cheaper when your organisation has qualified accedited coaches.

It benefits both oranisations.

The 3D guys had fun shooting at a target club last weekend. We rolled a butt out to 90m for them and let them have a shot. One of the guys put a $5 note on the target and we had a comp to hit it.

We all had a good time

[Randall Wellings]

Marcus, if my memory serves me correctly, I saw the ABA insurance

policy posted on the wall at the Lilydale club house.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Mind you, they, like all others may

have had to negotiate a new policy of late.

My understanding is that the policy would cover any member of ABA

whilst they are engaged in an official ABA sanctioned activity.

It doesn't take too much to present the case and get ratification, talk to

Jeff Bell, ( VP Field Archery and resident of Victoria) he is a good listener

and a forward thinker.

Cheers

[Marcus]

Jim
From our reading of the AA insurance it covers the Executive of the club and the club itself from prosecution should an incident occur on club grounds. This does not state if a non AA member excludes all insurance so it's a hard call. I believe that insurance companies, when asked if they cover something specific answer 'no' in case your next line is "Well today we shot someone...'

Randall
Thanks for that. We have had a terrible time getting a copy of it. Does an ABA sanctioned event also cover hunting in the bush? If not then many ABA members are not covered.

[James Park]

The AA CEO sent out an urgent email during last week noting that beginners were not covered during coaching courses unless they became associate members for the duration of the course. I think this probably means also that a non-AA member shooting at an AA club would not be covered. Hence we need to be careful.
AA has very rapidly made available a means of dealling with the beginner issue (it was mentioned at Sherbrooke today).
Doug Devlin has the email from the CEO.

[Marcus]

Yeah I heard someone who heard about that talking about it :roll:
I would hazard a guess and say that clubs can get around this by making associate membership free for a certain period. Shouldn't be an issue unless the club has to pay AA for the priviledge.

[Robert Halley-Frame]

The requirement for coaching and visitors will be as follows ( info taken from the AA email sent this week)

TEMPORARY PLAYER MEMBERSHIP

Temporary player membership will be granted to a player (not being a member of the Club, the RGB or Archery Australia) which shall include (but not necessarily be confined to) any person who, with the consent of the Club and upon the payment of the prescribed fee and completion of the required application: -

a) Attends the premises of the Club for the purpose of any training course conducted by the Club

b) Attends the Club (with the consent of the Club) for the purpose of archery instruction

c) Attends the Club upon the invitation of the Club for the purpose of participating in the sport of archery

d) Being a visitor to the Club who, with the consent of the Club, attends the premises of the Club for the purpose of participating in the sport of archery

e) Attends the Club or any other premises at which the Club is conducting a instruction, competition, display, or exhibition for the purpose of viewing such display or participating in any proper activities offered by the Club at such instruction, competition, display or exhibition.

The status of the Temporary Player shall be of such duration only as referred to in the aforementioned application and shall not entitle the Temporary Player to any other rights of membership.

The completed application for and prescribed fee shall be forwarded direct to

[Marcus]

What is the application fee though?

[Robert Halley-Frame]

Its $2.00 with application form to be completed. I am seeking clarification if its $2.00 per visit or $2.00 for a coaching course (say 4 weeks), the application form has a commencement date and closing date so on first impressions the cost will be minimal.

I am hoping to be able to get the ABA guys who are shooting the World Masters Games over to sherbrooke under this arrangement.

:D :D

[James Park]

It has the substantial advantage that from the point of view of the Government AA will now appear to have a very much larger membership (it will probably double, at least). This is most beneficial for grants, etc.

[Robert Halley-Frame]

Your right Jim, grants are made relative to the membership of the Associations, with the added temporary members on the book, it could allow the Association to get into a higher category of funding and opportunities will flow on from there.

Although the paperwork is going to be a pain, it wont take long and I see some real advantages that can be made from this, at Club,State and National levels.

:D :D

[Marcus]

Is it possible to make the associate membership lifetime? That way someone only has to fill out once and can come back and shoot again without all the paperwork.
Things are starting to look up!!

[James Park]

I doubt that it will possible for a lifetime.
I also expect that ABA will find it has a similar need.

[Robert Halley-Frame]

I think that the cover is short term but it would allow for shooting under supervised conditions. Lenth of time /??? depends what you put in as a completion date.

Follow up the email from Doug Devlin. I have sought clarification in relation to a couple of senario's and I agree it's looking good at this point of time...
I have already implemented the new system today at the club, so should be ok.

:D :D

[Eberbachl]

Sounds like things are beginning to look up :)

Great news indeed about 3DAAA andAA getting together!!! Now for ABA to join the party and we can all be one big happy family shooting bows and arrows of all disciplines :o :lol: :o

[Steve B]

This has become a very interesting thread. I can see heaps of benefits for all archers if ALL the "factions" can make it to the party as Luke so apptly says it. I fear that it may take some time on our side Luke , however that said I also believe it will happen, after all the numbers game with the government and the grants as Marcas says is what we as archers should be aiming at to better the sport and the various disciplines. Nice work if we can all get together, I just hope its sooner not later

[Randall Wellings]

Marcus A.

My understanding is that all qualified ABA hunters (having obtained their

proficiency) are covered by the Insurance policy providing they are

operating legitimately.

The policy offers the protection to the hunter for accidently damage

caused to the owners property whilst hunting legitimately.

Cheers