Help on "A small difference can be important !!"

[Mark]

HI all

OK - I can follow the logic and theory behind this. I've also been reading James's book (excellent book and info!!) and can see that it can be achieved but, try as I might, I cannot achieve this shoulder alignment. Marcus posted pictures of my form and has pointed out that my line of force is wrong, but try as I might I cannot fix it.

The closest I can get is to close my stance excessively and this is far from comfortable (or correct I am sure). Pushing my left shoulder around tends to raise it and twist my hips - not very comfortable to shoot with.

Whilst MCB has some informative stuff on stance etc - there is nothing really specific on achieving this. As I am coming back to archery after a long break, and am shooting with the form I used in the past, I am wondering if it is possible to have a badly ingrained habit that is stopping the correct form. The bad form is shhooting well - I want good form to shot excellently.

Any tips on achieving this alignment ??

Thanks

Mark

[cecile]

http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/technique/tn_brascorde.jpg
http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/technique/tn_brascorde21.jpg
I know some archers that are really not able to perform the correct alignment, because their joints have not enough flexibility. I know also one archer who gets the same problem because he has too much muscles around shoulders and the neck. That does not mean they don't shoot well! As for you, I saw your pictures and you should be capable of a better alignment (it is not so bad anyway) with some work.
If you have difficulties in acheiving the above alignment (bones in straight line with the collar bones - positionning like that is good weither you shoot classic or compound), you may need to reinforce your collar bone muscles. These muscles are not very used in every day life. They are simply reinforced by shooting.

You don't look relaxed at all. Relaxing will help you to find the good alignment.

What I suggest you now is : shooting with eyes shut on a blank butt at a very short range. More than trying desperately to force the alignment, you need to fell it and to be relaxed. I don't know a better exercise than shooting eyes shut on short sessions.

Good luck ! :fadein:

[Ozzy]

Excellent summary Cecile :o
I hope we will be seeing more from you. :wink:

[Marcus]

While good pictures, the alignment from the top view is incorrect, the front shoulder needs to come around closer to the string. Have to go and coach now, will try and draw some diagrams when I get back.

[Ozzy]

While good pictures, the alignment from the top view is incorrect, the front shoulder needs to come around closer to the string. Have to go and coach now, will try and draw some diagrams when I get back.

For some of us, I am sure that any closer would surely pull on the frontal deltoid marcus. :-?
I for one would feel uncomfortable any closer :roll:
Interesting that Bernie Pellerite's book "Idiot Proof Archery" states there is a natural angle in the bone structure which should be maintaned between bow arm shoulder girdle & bow arm.

[Marcus]

For some of us, I am sure that any closer would surely pull on the frontal deltoid marcus.
I for one would feel uncomfortable any closer
Interesting that Bernie Pellerite's book "Idiot Proof Archery" states there is a natural angle in the bone structure which should be maintaned between bow arm shoulder girdle & bow arm.
The shoulder alignment describe is certainly doable by all archers. If you can stand and raise one arm to your side then you can achieve the correct alignment. Chances are what you are getting is resistance from an incoorect draw weight. Try it with a club recurve. If you can do it then, you can do it with a compound.

[A&O]

http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/technique/tn_brascorde.jpg


looking at these pictures i cannot help but notice in the middle picture the 'bone' connecting the shoulder to elbow is MUCH shorter than the other 2 picture.. :-?

[cecile]

This is because of the perspective: the elbow of the drawing arm is higher than the shoulder, so the humerus looks short. More often, the archer will draw the string with the bigest hand to forearm angle. If he chooses to maintain the elbow at the same level of the shoulder, he will have a very bent wrist.

However, I admit that I exagerated a little the perspective; but the aim is to understand the mechanism of the bones alignments, especially at the end of the draw.

FYI, my sketches are highly inspired from "Archery Anatomy", a most valuable book. :wink:

[A&O]

i s@@ the light..thanx for explaining.. :)

[Zoe]

Mark, have looked at the photos. Have you considered lengthening your draw? Hard to tell as there's no photo from directly behind, but sometimes it's hard to move your alignment that much (it will feel uncomfortable) if you're too cramped. Also, don't be afraid to do weird things with your anchor point to achieve correct bowarm alignment.

[Mark]

Thanks to all for the feedback - been trying new things and steadily getting there I think.

Particular thanks to Zoe for suggesting the lengthened draw length - I've found that this has definately helped and now much steadier and feeling more solid. Still yet to try the "wierd things" with my anchor point as yet. :wink:

Soon as I settle things down time to stop shooting my antique Jennings and buy a new bow - no doubt I'll have to start all over again then !!


Thanks again to everyone

Mark

[James Park]

Sorry for not commenting earlier, but I have been overseas (in the UK). As Zoe noted, changing your shoulder alignment will almost inevitably change your draw length, so that is one of the key points. Usually, as you move your bowarm shoulder in towards the arrow you will need to increase your draw length to maintain your string arm elbow on the line of force.

[Ozzy]

Sorry for not commenting earlier, but I have been overseas (in the UK). As Zoe noted, changing your shoulder alignment will almost inevitably change your draw length, so that is one of the key points. Usually, as you move your bowarm shoulder in towards the arrow you will need to increase your draw length to maintain your string arm elbow on the line of force.

Jim, I am very pleased to have you back for this one ! :P
What are your thoughts & opinion on the diagram & teachings of Bernie Pellerite in his book "Idiot proof Archery" ?
He indicates a natural angle at the arm/shoulder which must be maintaned.
His diagrams show the hips/shoulders/feet all directly over each other with an open stance & having quite a space between the bow arm & the draw stroke :-?

[Mark]

That style of open stance feels most comfortable with me. I suppose that is the point of my post, but the question is, when I get the "correct" form will it begin to feel natural and comfortable as well. Is this a trap that shooters fall in to - shoot as it feels good and that is easy but not as consistent and after a time, this becomes an ingrained, comfortable, but bad habit.

In my early days of shooting (20 years back) I had no access to a coach, compound shooting was shoot how it's comfortable and let the results lie where they will. Whilst the results were good for me, I think I can do better now with form even though I am immediately faling back into the old style of comfy shooting.

Mark

[Flame]

when I get the "correct" form will it begin to feel natural and comfortable as well.

Mark

The AIS commented on this at the recent talent spotting camp

the answer is YES

[Marcus]

Yeah it certainly starts to feel natural.
I've beed struggling with poor alignment for 2 years, and while sometimes I could shoot good scores, often I would stuff the shot up.
I shot what was comfortable, here is a photo from 2001
http://dva.kitsune.com.au/images/dvaIFAAimages/marcus.jpg
Getting me to change things was hard work, just always felt wrong. I made the mistakeof thinking that right form would fall into place. I thought 'as soon as I move my body into the right place I'll be rock steady and will hit X after X. Doesn't work that way.

After a frustrating State Indoor I did some work with Jim and now my form looks like

http://dva.kitsune.com.au/images/images/DSCN1498.jpg

Not perfect yet, but when I shoot now I fall into this position, it's now natural. It takes a few hundred shots to get something natural, and yes you will often go backwards in your scores, but it is worth it.
To give you an idea, earlier this year I struggled to break 290 indoor (one league I did it once from 20 rounds), at the moment I have not shot under 290 since September 24th.(29 straight)

[stodrette]

Love the shirt!!! :D

Would be nice if the two pics were from the same perspective......

[MerlinApexDylan]

They should have a shirt that says "Technique Whore". :lol:

[MerlinApexDylan]

Me thinks KGK would wear that one. :P

[James Park]

What are your thoughts & opinion on the diagram & teachings of Bernie Pellerite in his book "Idiot proof Archery" ?
He indicates a natural angle at the arm/shoulder which must be maintaned.
His diagrams show the hips/shoulders/feet all directly over each other with an open stance & having quite a space between the bow arm & the draw stroke :-?
As noted by others, whatever you are doing now will "feel natural", and if you change something it will feel awkward. However, after using a new technique for a short while it will then become the one that "feels natural". Hence, "feeling correct" does not necessarily mean that it is actually correct.
I think you can do much better than having "hips/shoulders/feet all directly over each other with an open stance & having quite a space between the bow arm & the draw stroke". I like the "modified oblique stance" as described in Archery Anatomy, the hips lined up at the target, and the shoulder line closed to bring the bowarm shoulder in closer to the arrow.
Especially with recurve, if you open up that bowarm shoulder to arrow distance the forces on that shoulder joint become quite high and the archer will generally have troubles. With a compound and the lower holding weight archers get away with opening it up a bit, but then the technique is not as good. Have a look at how well Clint gets that shoulder in, and how powerful he is in the wind - much better form.
The pictures of Marcus also show it well: with the open bowarm shoulder his technique was no where near as good as it is now, and prone to inconsistency. Now it is much more solid and repeatable from day to day.

[James Park]

That style of open stance feels most comfortable with me. I suppose that is the point of my post, but the question is, when I get the "correct" form will it begin to feel natural and comfortable as well. Is this a trap that shooters fall in to - shoot as it feels good and that is easy but not as consistent and after a time, this becomes an ingrained, comfortable, but bad habit.
Mark
Yes, absolutely. And it is very definitely a trap that many archers fall into.
One of the traps is that over time your technique can gradually shift and as it does so it can always feel correct. Then after a while your technique can be quite different, and quite in error.
For example, Bryce Lee used to slowly start leaning back away from the target, and if I did not periodically remind him to stand up straight his technique would just gradually lose its edge (but always feel correct). In a FITA this would definitely affect his scores, although he would not notice himself doing anything different. Over time we have stopped this slow change and his technique is now very good. The point here is that even the best need a coach to periodically have a look to see if unwanted changes are creeping in.

[James Park]

A further point to note on the diagrams of bone structure:
From shoulder-to-shoulder the bone structure is around the archer's chest rather than around his back. The Humerus (upper arm bone) connects to the Scapula (shoulder blade), which connects to the Clavicle (collar bone) which connects to the Sternum (breast bone), and so on through to the other Humerus. So: getting the bowarm shoulder joint in closer to the arrow is actually getting the Humerus and Clavicle a bit more in line which is a good thing, and reduces the muscular effort needed to hold the bowarm shoulder in position. What we are after is for our bone structure to do as much of the work as we can, rather than our muscular structure (remembering that bones are remarkably good at dealling with longitudinal forces, whereas muscules tire quite readily). Also, if we have a lot of dependance on muscles we will not be as steady.

[Mark]

I've still been working to find an answer to my problems with achieving correct alignment and need an opinion on the following -

Consider that I am returning to archery after almost 20 years. When I bought the Jennings I am using there was no fitment process - it was order the bow and oh, I think it needs a 28" or so draw (determined of course by the old hold the measuring arrow at around your anchor point method, followed closely by throwing a dart into the store dartboard). Bow maxes out at drawlength of 28" but what if it turns out that maybe I should be shooting 29" to 30" draw. To compensate for the shorter draw I am now having to "hunch over" the shorter draw which will not allow me to correct my shoulder alignment. I have been playing around with anchor points today and tried some stoopid things including lengthening the rope on my release so that the loop is at least an inch longer when on the string. Anchored with the string stuck on the side of my chin (nose contact was impossible) and lo and behold my left shoulder is starting to come around.

Does this make sense - am I possibly fighting a losing battle with a bow that is physically to small for me ?? Hunched up with incorrect alignment all feels fine, but try to stretch out for good alignment and just cannot do it.

Opinions please

Thanks again all

Mark

[James Park]

Definitely worth getting the correct draw length, as otherwise you will have a technique limitation that simple will not let you score as well as you could. Lengthening the release device cord is a satisfactory solution.

[Mark]

Unfortunately, I think that to get the right length of release rope for a satisfactory draw length I would be hanging the bow string in mid air in front of my chin !! :x

I may have to wait for the new bow to remedy the situation - ordered it, just have to wait now.

Mark

[Ozzy]

Another one for James - :o
Many archers in the US, & promoted by Kirk Ethridge, is what I use & feel comfortable with -
A stance tagged the "alternative" stance :roll:
It is a combination of a "Straight" & "Open" stance
i.e. Far foot from target forward of closest foot, but at far less angle than some use & consider "Open"
The theory is that it prevents the spine distortion necessary to align the shoulders.
:wink:
Any thoughts anyone ? :o

[James Park]

Ozzy,
That sounds similar to the one I prefer and usually refer to as a "modified obliques stance".
For this:
- feet parallel and side on to the target.
- feet apart the width of the hip joints.
- the foot away from the target 1/3 of a foot length forward of the other.
- hip line passing through the target.
This is a very stble stance, and also help avoid twisting your back to get the correct shoulder alignment.

[Pete]

Re hip positioning in the stance.

At the recent Talent ID session Mr Lee said we should shoot with an open stance with the hips not pointing at the target (the hip line going to the left of the target). It is in the waist part that is twisted which thus promotes a straighter back without the arch. He had photos with all sorts of lines drawn on them to show this.

He labeled the square stance as one in which the hip line is through the target, no matter where feet were. Actually, he didn't exactly say that but it was implied.

Now i don't know if what I said made any sense. But Mr Lee said to use the open stance with the hip line to the left, so that's what i changed to.

[James Park]

Pete,
I will have a talk to Mr Lee.
There are several reasons I like the hip line aligned with the target:
- It lowers your pelvis, which adds to stability.
- It removes most of the twisting from your back, which helps keep the use ofyour back muscles a little more symmetrical.
- It makes it easier to get the best shoulder line.
It is a small difference, however.

[Robert de Bondt]

Re hip positioning in the stance.

At the recent Talent ID session Mr Lee said we should shoot with an open stance with the hips not pointing at the target (the hip line going to the left of the target). It is in the waist part that is twisted which thus promotes a straighter back without the arch. He had photos with all sorts of lines drawn on them to show this.



I have had this argument re hip alignment many times. What Mr.Lee is saying is that when using the open stance and when aligning the shoulders inline with the target the rotation must come from the waist. This will create a little tension in the body just below the ribs. The hips must not be consciously twisted to achieve proper shoulder alignment. The shoulders must lead the hips rather than vice versa. There will be some natural rotation of the hips, but consciously twisting the hips in line with the shooulders, when using an open stance, will create undesirable tension in the legs..

[Ozzy]

Like many of us, I have not been to a world championship, so can only study a DVD of an event :o
Looking at the top women compounders on the 2003 Worlds, there is a variety of stances, in particular, USA, France & Germany, who are all interesting to observe, with many having a square stance or this "modified" stance with in-line hips. Mary Zorn included.
Perhaps due to compound having a low holding weight, we must stick to what feels the most stable for us & consider this "one of the small things that can make a difference", but don't get paranoid about it ?

:-? :wink:

[James Park]

what feels the most stable for us
The problem is that whatever we are currently doing will feel the "most stable", even if it is not optimum.

[Mark]

This is certainly an interesting issue to debate. Way back when I was shooting and none of this was considered, we still shot some excellent scores with forms that were way out by todays standard. From my viewpoint this comes down to not only shooters comfort and perception (which will go a long way to the mental aspect of performance) but most importantly repeatability of the shot. Without a known consistant form how can I feel confident (that mental part again) and therefor not spend mental effort going over and over body position as I am shooting - a potential distraction from the shot itself. If, however, you have consistency and are a little off in form but feel comfortable that is going to help the mental game and let you focus on the shot itself. A bit of a circular arguement that is going to hurt your shooting anyway if you dwell on it too much and it becomes a distraction. But is this what separates the champions from the wanabees ???

Mark

[Ozzy]

what feels the most stable for us
The problem is that whatever we are currently doing will feel the "most stable", even if it is not optimum.

How very true James :wink:
Good shoulder placement is something I have concentrated on recently with the hope that my scores will pick up after an initial slump. :-?
I know you have always promoted this there aren't too many top compounders who don't have correct shoulders. :wink:
However this hip thing will cause some debate amongst archers with a wide open stance. :roll:
Brian polites has one of the widest I have seen, & he certainly is a good example, but can't recall his hip placement. :o

[Ozzy]

Coincidently I shot with a recurver yesterday who had been to the
Ki sik Lee event here in Adelaide.
He has only been shooting 6 months & shows great potential, but has now completely altered his style from changes made by Ki Sik Lee.
The changes are :
Very wide & Open stance.
+ The hip alignment thing - He changed to hips over feet now at an angle to the target & turning the shoulders in line with the target, which is not what he had originally been coached to do. :-?
The theory is that this promotes greater stability :o
Let me say, I am now rather confused because this theory must apply to a compounder . :-?

[Robert de Bondt]

The hip alignment thing - He changed to hips over feet now at an angle to the target & turning the shoulders in line with the target, which is not what he had originally been coached to do. :-?
The theory is that this promotes greater stability :o
Let me say, I am now rather confused because this theory must apply to a compounder . :-?

Ozzy,

You shouldn't really be confused. Mr. Lee was very emphatic regarding open hips and an open stance, even though force plate analysis hasn't shown any measurable differences in stability, however, these tests were done inside under controlled conditions. Mr. Lee very much recommends an open stance, even for beginners and open hips. . Rotation has to come from the waist, not from the hips. There will be a slight rotation from the hips, in sympathy with the turning of the shoulders.
If we are going to have uniform coaching in Australia we should listen to the Master Coach and be his apprentices, rather than pushing our own theories. I think Mr. Lee's record speaks for itself and I would strongly suggest that you take his advice.