Is the third finger necessary?

[The One]

A problem that faces many recurve archers, including myself, is that at full draw, the hand tries to rotate, causing the third finger to slip off the string. When this happens, I have to apply more tension to this finger to stop it from slipping off, leading to an inevitably bad release. How do you combat this? I've tried taking a deeper grip, but I don't like it too much, and string still seems to slip back to where it was :(. I've seen archers shooting with just two fingers before, and this was quite successful for them. Anyone tried it before?

I was shooting next to a friend at our Nationals at the start of this year, and every few shots, he'd have his bottom finger slip off the string and mutter a few obscenities. Strangely, it seemed to be these shots that found the middle :-?. Perhaps it's a sign?

Andrew Russell

[Lenin]

Your middle finger should be holding most of the weight at full draw. I think from memory that the bottom finger should only be holding between 15-20% of the weight. Almost everyone I have seen shooting a recurve has the same problem. As long as you have a deep enough grip on the other two fingers, i.e. at the first joint, you should not be worrying about the bottom finger. Once you start thinking about little things like this too much you are likely to effect the rest of your form.

[The One]

Yeah, I know - I'm waaaaaaay to conscious of my form normally at full draw :( And being the reason for most of my bad shots, I always seem to revert back to concentrating on the release. It's possibly the worst thing I could do + all. I used to have a coach that would damn near smack you if you mentioned the "relea....." word. Need to start thinking of something else instead, but I'd like to get it right before I start practising it + getting it subconscious :D

[Lenin]

Try and think of the last song that you heard before you started shooting. You will forget all of those little things and are likely to be able to focus, subconsciously, a bit better on the shot.

[Robert de Bondt]

Probably the best would be if you could shoot with one finger, however, that would be physically impossible. Shooting with two fingers would again put too much stress on the fingers, so three fingers is a good compromise.
General recommendation is 30% top finger, 50% middle finger and 20% ring finger. However, depending on hand and finger size, this could vary for the top and ring fingers. The middle finger should always take at least 50 -60% of the draw weight.

The reason that the bottom finger slips off is generally because there is too much tension in the hand. Rather than opening the chest and bringing the scapulas together to get through the clicker that way, a lot of archers use too much hand to achieve that. Basically it is caused by not using the core muscles properly.

[robbo]

I shoot compound and 3/2 fingers under, My thrd finger kept wanting to slip off, so I just left it off.

[Robert de Bondt]

I shoot compound and 3/2 fingers under, My thrd finger kept wanting to slip off, so I just left it off.

Never shot compound with fingers, but I suppose with a compound finger shooter and a high let-off one could shoot easily with two fingers, after drawing the bow over the "hump" with 3 fingers. Even 60lbs with 65% let-off would only give 21lbs for 2 fingers. I would also think that two fingers would give under those circumstances a more consistent release.

Maybe some other compound finger shooters would like to share their experiences.

[Eberbachl]

I shot compound barebow with two fingers for some time.

Found it to be most consistent - certainly moreso for me rather than three fingers.

On the shorter compound bow (compared to a 60+" recurve), at around 43" A2A I found finger pinch to be a significant problem.

The finger pinch first prompted me to shoot two fingers, and I found that it helped my release considerably.

:bday:

As for recurve.... I'm sorry, I can't comment. My recurve archery is very limited (limited to carp) :rofl:

[Eberbachl]

I shot compound barebow with two fingers for some time.

Found it to be most consistent - certainly moreso for me rather than three fingers.

On the shorter compound bow (compared to a 60+" recurve), at around 43" A2A I found finger pinch to be a significant problem.

The finger pinch first prompted me to shoot two fingers, and I found that it helped my release considerably.

Drawing the (49lb) compound with two fingers was very easy, as of course the holding weight is significantly reduced.

:bday:

As for recurve.... I'm sorry, I can't comment. My recurve archery is very limited (limited to carp) :rofl:

[Eberbachl]

Oops.... :oops: as you can see I pressed Quote instead of edit.......

Can't edit in here :wink:

Sorry :)

[The One]

Haha - yeah, I imagine that shooting a compound which is rather short axle to axle would be quite difficult with fingers.

And cheers for the thoughts Lenin

[John K]

From the footage I've seen of Butch Johnson, Rod White and Justin Huish, it seems that they use the first and second fingers when at full draw, with the pad of the third finger appearing to rest on the string. I have heard that Butch Johnson came to recurve shooting from shooting a compound with fingers, which he used to do with his top two fingers because of the string angle.

I seem to do the opposite - I take all the weight on the second and third fingers, and none at all on my index finger. Trying to correct this causes huge problems with my release and feels very unnatural. To be honest, I didn't really notice it until it was pointed out to me by a fellow club member.

[andy]

On the shorter compound bow (compared to a 60+" recurve), at around 43" A2A I found finger pinch to be a significant problem.

I was just about to mention that. Looks like you beat me to it! :(

[Eberbachl]

Sorry :wink:

[andy]

I seem to do the opposite - I take all the weight on the second and third fingers, and none at all on my index finger. Trying to correct this causes huge problems with my release and feels very unnatural. To be honest, I didn't really notice it until it was pointed out to me by a fellow club member.

I believe Steve Searle (Quicks staff & ex UK champion) shoots like that. I don't think he uses his top finger at all. It looks like he just points it to the target.

[James Park]

I think it is important to get the back of your string hand parallel to the line oif the string. That has several benefits:
- It helps you keep the appropriate load on each of the three fingers.
- It helps get a consistent exit of the string from your fingers (all at the same time rather than one after the other).
- It helps avoid you using tension in your string hand to operate the clicker.
Many of us find it difficult to get our string hand twisted around to get this alignment, but if you lower your sting arm elbow a little (possibly a little under the line-of-force) you can do it much more easily. In fact, pushing your bow arm shoulder in a little further towards the arrow helps as well (in addition to reducing the forces on that joint, etc). Have a look at the two pictures of me in the thread on "a small change can make a big difference" in the "Mastering Archery" section and you will see what I mean.

[John K]

Andy wrote:

I believe Steve Searle (Quicks staff & ex UK champion) shoots like that. I don't think he uses his top finger at all. It looks like he just points it to the target.

Oh how I wish I could shoot as well as he does :D My finger is curled and actually touching the string, but bears no weight whatsoever. I find it strange, because it starts off bearing some weight at least. Oh well :)

James - those pictures are very useful. I saw them when I first started browsing this forum, and some of the discussion that went along with them has also been very informative. I'm hoping to get some video analysis and still photos taken some time during this indoor season so I can compare my form to these photos.

While I was rebuilding my technique this year my coach pointed out that error in my shooting (angled hand, high elbow, uneven release). It seems better now, but I found it very awkward to get my elbow much lower. Still, my draw hand seems to be fairly flat now. I managed to achieve this by focusing on keeping the palm of my hand facing my neck right through the shot. My top finger, however, is still bearing no weight. I suppose I'm just built differently. :)

[MerlinApexDylan]

Here's a little training tip that my coach started me out with over a year and a half ago.

To train my release, he had me take my bow and shoot arrows at the ground. Firstly from only 3-4"s of draw. I would empty out my quiver into the lawn. Keeping form and follow through but watching my hand while I let myfingers relax and the string go through them. I did this for a few ends and then I would draw a little bit further 7-10"s, practice for 5 or so ends. Then move back, etc. Until finally I wasn't seeing my hand because it was at anchor. But I knew of the image in my mind and the feeling of what a good release should be.

This is a good way to reinforce a positive release. Relax, string goes through the fingers and the hand follows the arm up back and down with the range of motion in the scapula.

Also, exercises for the belley of the forearm which have all the flexor digitorum muscles would help to keep the hand more relaxed and would do alot to help clean up some aspects of the release hand. Stretching to achieve a greater range of motion in the wrist may also help. After a good amount of training it will be subconcious. :D
Dylan[/b]

[The One]

Yes James, a coach I once had always mentioned this, but try as I might, I can't seem to get my hand parallel. When I do, I'm afraid that I end up putting excess tension into the hand to force it into place, and this does not help the score :(

I also experimented shooting with a low back elbow for a time about a year ago, but I disliked it, as it created more tension in my forearm and hand as I found that it was increasingly more difficult to get the arrow through the clicker using my scapula. I don't have a high back elbow - I think that it is currently parallel to the floor.

I will try to rotate my hand a bit more in practice (possibly getting the back shoulder around a bit more could help with this aspect) :D Those training techniques also look very useful MerlinApexDylan - cheers.

Also Jim, perhaps this problem is not helped by having a slightly turned head - my ledge runs under my jawline, so I'm not sure whether this causes my wrist to not lie straight. Do you think that anchor point has much effect on the finger pressure and angle on the string?

[James Park]

Anchor point: I suspect not a lot of influence.
I would try tightening your stomach muscles to pull your breast bone down a bit (that is, bending a little at the bottom of your ribs), as well as moving your bowarm shoulder in a little towards the arrow. Both of those help get your string hand a little more parallel to the string.

[Marcus]

Anchor point: I suspect not a lot of influence.
I would try tightening your stomach muscles to pull your breast bone down a bit (that is, bending a little at the bottom of your ribs), as well as moving your bowarm shoulder in a little towards the arrow. Both of those help get your string hand a little more parallel to the string.
Best advise I have ever gotten in archery :D

[robbo]

So, it is better to bend slightly at the bottom of the rib cage, than to stand bolt upright??

[James Park]

Robbo,
Yes, we are trying to ensure that you are not arching your back, as well as getting your shoulder line corrrect.

[Lenin]

What I tried to do to get more equal over the fingers was to start my draw with my top finger not on the string. As I drew back I slowly squeezed it over the string. This straightened my hand and also stopped me from dragging my top finger on release.

[The One]

Thanks guys - I won't be in town for a week or so, but when I come back I'll see if I can apply those methods.

[robbo]

Robbo,
Yes, we are trying to ensure that you are not arching your back, as well as getting your shoulder line corrrect.


Mmmm I could be doing just that. :-?

I intended to go out today and try tightening my stomach muscles, but I forgot. :roll:

But I tend to arch my back too much, heavy frontal stablisation doesn't help this.

Mental note (must start diet) :o

[Randall Wellings]

Mental note (must start diet)

Robbo..best leave that for after Christmas

As far as the fingers go...for Compound I have found top two fingers under works just dandy...still hold word record shooting this way.
Many 'limited' (un-aided) archers have adopted this form of release and it does promote a very flat hand if done correctly.

Large hands may have a bit of finger pinch..but I certainly haven

[clever_guy]

"How do you combat this? I've tried taking a deeper grip, but I don't like it too much, and string still seems to slip back to where it was . I've seen archers shooting with just two fingers before, and this was quite successful for them. Anyone tried it before?"

For FITA recurve use the deeper grip. Consider the third finger the "steering" or "grouping" finger, the amount of pressure you distribute to the third finger will often determine the consistency of your groups, the more consistent the pressure on the third finger (as well as the other two) the more consistent your arrow placement will be. If you go to the Saggi board you can start an argument over how much pressure on each finger is optimal, but unless you are an advanced archer its easier just to work for even pressure on all three fingers - while at the same time maintaining a flat back of the hand (close to parallel to the string), and relaxing the back of the hand on shot execution.

If you want to see what difference using the third finger and finger pressure differences make, you can go to 18m and literally walk an arrows up and down an imaginary vertical line aiming at the gold - and varying the pressure on the third finger..

;)

-CG

[Ronny]

Turn that hand in a little and work at keeping the back of the hand flat. If you want to shoot with two fingers see Peter Ebden he used to do it.

[Archangel]

Pity I missed this thread before - I've got a certain vested interest myself ;-)

Yes, I did shoot with two fingers. It was a while back, as I recall it involved massive frustration at "that f**kin bottom finger" as I delicately put it. And like everyone else who's tried it (I hear Butch Johnson & Rod White have both had problems with it at times, and that Rod tried two fingers at one point) I didn't stay with it. In the end it caused more problems, which are now a state secret so I won't speak of them.

I'm still having problems with that finger, but I can generally muck through. I plan to fix it (one day), but I haven't had the free time I think it'll need for 18 months now.

Oh, mr. TheOne, who was that archer you mentioned in the original post? anyone I know? ;-)

[The One]

Sorry Mr. Archangel - that too is a state secret :D

[Mishy]

Just to let you all know, the WA high preformance coach has informed us that 50% of the effort is placed in the middle finger, and 25% each for the other two. seems to work alright for me, not scorewise, but i do get a clean release when it's right.

[Flame]

works well in traffic as well :D

[kgk]

I try really hard to put weight on all three fingers, mainly because I'm concerned about injury.

Let's say that you have a 45# bow, and the area of the string contact on a single finger is something like 17mm x 3mm: That's nearly 600psi, right? Can that be good for your hand?

So, I put the weight over all three fingers, in an effort to cut the pressure rougly by a factor of three.

It seems to me that it takes many years to become good in archery, so one must be extremely careful to avoid injury in any part of the body, with the shoulders and string hand being particularly vulnerable to "dangerous" techniques.

kgk

[troy70]

I have lost 3rd finger and find shooting with 2 fingers only good. It sounds silly but i am thinking about trying to shoot a bit with only one finger. If you have confident form with your hand you can shoot with your little finger if you like, your not supposed to be thinking about an arrow and string in your hand only air. :angel:

[Leighton]

I have lost 3rd finger and find shooting with 2 fingers only good. It sounds silly but i am thinking about trying to shoot a bit with only one finger. If you have confident form with your hand you can shoot with your little finger if you like, your not supposed to be thinking about an arrow and string in your hand only air. :angel:

True, but the reason we use 3 fingers is to alleviate the full weight of the bow on just two fingers. Do the math and its quite interesting.

[TJ Mason]

Medieval English longbow men used just two fingers to draw their bows. And these bows had draw weights of up to 150 pounds. So I don't think strength was the issue.

The main reason I use the three finger "Mediterranean" hold (apart from the fact that tabs are made that way :bday: and most rule systems require it) is to avoid putting string pressure on the underside of the middle finger.

This is so that I don't put pressure on a nerve that runs there. This nerve can swell up to five times its normal size, causing serious problems for archers. The problem can only be fixed by an operation that involves scraping the nerve back to normal size. :o

Best avoided.

[The One]

Medieval English longbow men also weren't going for accuracy!!!! They just used the quantity not quality approach!

[Leighton]

Not to mention they were tougher than we were. =D We're all just a bunch of lazy people who want machines and other people to do things for us. :P

[The One]

Preferably machines - the other people are too lazy too :D

[Leighton]

Preferably machines - the other people are too lazy too :D

And the machines work for free! =D

[Mike13]

Im not sure if this is true but I read that the famous two fingered salute comes from the English longbowmen. Apparently if the French caught bowmen they'd cut their two drawing fingers off (they really hated the longbowmen lol) so as a sign of defiance the bowmen would show them the fingers before battle.

[Leighton]

Im not sure if this is true but I read that the famous two fingered salute comes from the English longbowmen. Apparently if the French caught bowmen they'd cut their two drawing fingers off (they really hated the longbowmen lol) so as a sign of defiance the bowmen would show them the fingers before battle.

I heard the story was that the English would cut off the middle finger of the captured French archers. Or the other way around, not sure. Either case the French would say "Pluck Oui!" while waving around their middle fingers; and the English, not knowing French.........

[recurve boy]

Both ae myths. Googling will quickly turn up the entymology of the f word. But it is a good story.

[Leighton]

Both ae myths. Googling will quickly turn up the entymology of the f word. But it is a good story.

:( Takes all the fun out of the word. :( Stupid Germans.

[The One]

the latter is a myth, but I was under the impression that the first one was actually true

[Aarleks]

Both ae myths. Googling will quickly turn up the entymology of the f word. But it is a good story.

The account of the origins of the Ents? :P :wink:
Etymology perhaps?

[recurve boy]

The first part of the later may be true but not the second. The second is part of a story regarding the origins of "**** you".

The 'n' is very close to the 't'.

Edit: I count 8 '*'. Are you encrypting and then censoring Marcus? :D

[Leighton]

The first part of the later may be true but not the second. The second is part of a story regarding the origins of "******** you".

The 'n' is very close to the 't'.

Edit: I count 8 '*'. Are you encrypting and then censoring Marcus? :D

hmmm, ****

weird. =D

[TJ Mason]

Im not sure if this is true but I read that the famous two fingered salute comes from the English longbowmen. Apparently if the French caught bowmen they'd cut their two drawing fingers off (they really hated the longbowmen lol) so as a sign of defiance the bowmen would show them the fingers before battle.
That's definitely true!

It was pretty useful too. Before the Battle of Agincourt, when the two sides were facing each other and waiting for the other to make a move, the English bowmen taunted the French by waving their drawing fingers at them. The French cavalry, furious at the slaughter these peasants had dished out in the past, broke ranks and attacked. This disrupted the French plans. If the cavalry hadn't broken ranks, then it's likely the French would have won the battle.

[recurve boy]

That was part of the story about the origins of "the finger" wasn't it. The English may indeed have taunted the French (why wouldn't you?) but I'm sure they didn't come up with the middle finger.

But sure, a lot of stories probably have some factual bits to them.

[grantwomack]

Well, not so much the finger, just forks. It is seemingly as rude over here to give someone the forks as it is to give them the finger. Can't say I feel the need to do that to anyone though, not even the French... then again, they aren't cutting our fingers off these days, are they! :D

[Leighton]

Im not sure if this is true but I read that the famous two fingered salute comes from the English longbowmen. Apparently if the French caught bowmen they'd cut their two drawing fingers off (they really hated the longbowmen lol) so as a sign of defiance the bowmen would show them the fingers before battle.
That's definitely true!

It was pretty useful too. Before the Battle of Agincourt, when the two sides were facing each other and waiting for the other to make a move, the English bowmen taunted the French by waving their drawing fingers at them. The French cavalry, furious at the slaughter these peasants had dished out in the past, broke ranks and attacked. This disrupted the French plans. If the cavalry hadn't broken ranks, then it's likely the French would have won the battle.

Is that historical fact, or is that just speculation? The way the two armies were lined up, unless the French flanked the English, the French were doomed to lose. As long as the English front ranks were able to stop the advance of the French army.

[Clare Barnes]

The way the two armies were lined up, unless the French flanked the English, the French were doomed to lose.

I guess the guy who assumes to know everything about archery is an authority on history too? :roll:

[Leighton]

The way the two armies were lined up, unless the French flanked the English, the French were doomed to lose.

I guess the guy who assumes to know everything about archery is an authority on history too? :roll:


Well, history is a passion of mine and I did study the battle in detail, albight it was a long time ago. No sources I read mentioned that the taunting caused the cavalry to charge unexpectedly.

Also, if you look at the layout of the battle, the English positioned themselves nicely in a classic funnel position. The French could not bring the full weight of their forces to bear on the English. Not to mention it was really muddy thtat day and the French cavalry got bogged down.
Another factor that was in the English' favor was that they had the long bow, which outdistanced the French crossbow. They also had a lot of longbowmen. As long as the front line held, the English could rain down arrows into the massed French forces. The lines held because the French were bogged down and they were unable to bring the full weight of their force down upon the English.

If it was another day and location, I would say the English were ****ed. But it happened in that place at that time.



I'm sorry if I somehow offended you. I am not sure what makes you think that I presume to know everything about archery.

[Phelan]

compound....3 to draw..2 under....trying to change to 2 finger release...harder keep slipping back to 3 fingers.

I do find the 3rd finger only just holds the string so i figured i could use 2 instead..

2 fingers does give a nicer release though.

[TJ Mason]

That was part of the story about the origins of "the finger" wasn't it. The English may indeed have taunted the French (why wouldn't you?) but I'm sure they didn't come up with the middle finger.

But sure, a lot of stories probably have some factual bits to them.

The middle finger is a very ancient gesture. I read recently that the middle finger gesture was originally:
palm down
finger pointing towards recipient
fingers and thumb clenched either side
The intention was to make it look like male genitalia, implying that the recipient was homosexual!

Leighton: can't be bothered replying.

[Leighton]

Realized late last night that the entire debate is ridiculous. No one's ever going to be proven right or wrong.

And we've gone way off topic.

I suppose the answer is that, no, the third finger is not necessary, use what works best for you.

[kgk]

I suppose the answer is that, no, the third finger is not necessary, use what works best for you.

I would not agree, as:

1. The Koreans use their third fingers;

2. The third finger helps your hand survive high-volume shooting because it reduces peak finger pressure (force per unit area).

Therefore, the correct answer is that one should shoot with three fingers if at all possible.

kgk

[Leighton]

I suppose the answer is that, no, the third finger is not necessary, use what works best for you.

I would not agree, as:

1. The Koreans use their third fingers;

2. The third finger helps your hand survive high-volume shooting because it reduces peak finger pressure (force per unit area).

Therefore, the correct answer is that one should shoot with three fingers if at all possible.

kgk

I personally agree with that statement, but in light of the testimonies presented in this thread, I must admit that shooting with two fingers or even one finger is possible. I personally don't think it is optimal, but the question was "is the third finger necessary?" and I think the answer to that question is no, its not necessary.

[The One]

Perhaps I should rephrase myself - "Is the third necessary to shoot well?" :D

[kgk]

Perhaps I should rephrase myself - "Is the third necessary to shoot well?" :D

:D

In the Olympic footage that I watched (and I have yet to get a copy of the 84 minute extended FITA DVD), there were certain people who only shot with two fingers, and did well.

However, the majority shot with three fingers, including all of the Koreans.

I think you need to recast your question again, "What justification is important enough for one to shoot with two fingers and not three?"

I'm not a coach, but a few reasons come to mind:

* your ring finger is too short (bad archery genetics)
* your ring finger is damaged (by a serious accident)
* (and there must be more....)

I don't view "I have trouble with a deep hook" as a good-enough answer, because a good coach can help you make a deep hook work, although it could certainly take months to make this happen.

On my hand, if you sort my fingers by length:

middle > ring > index,

so I can keep contact if I grip correctly, i.e., I have no excuses for me not to have a good grip (at least in my coach's eyes).

So, in summary, unless there is a very good reason not to shoot with three fingers, learn the correct technique and protect your hand from high pressures for a lifetime of archery pleasure.

kgk

[The One]

Unfortunately my ring finger is shorter, and while I haven't had an accident, the tendon in my ring finger is too wonky to allow a deep grip :(

I was playing around trying to get my palm flat so that my fingers didn't rotate the other day, shooting with a mirror, and no matter what I did (changed elbow height, depth of grip, style of pre-draw) my fingers always were rotated by the time I got back to full draw. I think perhaps the relative length of fore-arm and upper-arm may be the reason, but I'm having serious problems getting my hand anywhere near flat and parallel! At least I'm starting coaching today, that should be the first step to sorting it out.

Thanks everyone for your replies,
Andrew

[kgk]

At least I'm starting coaching today, that should be the first step to sorting it out.


Awesome! :D

kgk

[Leighton]

Cool. A good coach should be able to help you out with that.

As to the question "is it necessary to shoot well?"

Well, its certainly not a sufficient condition. Is it necessary, I don't think so. There are probably people out there who use only two. But they probably meet all the sufficient conditions.

Of course, it could be the case that there are certain combinations of necessary conditions that make the group of them sufficient. Such as
Group 1: condition a, condition b, and condition c
Group 2: condition a, condition e, and using three fingers
Group 3: using three fingers, condition f, condition a, condition d

and so on.

Now is this really an answer to your question? Yes.
Is it a good answer? Maybe.
Is it what you wanted? no.

And there you have it. My very convoluted and verbose way of saying I really don't know but suspect that its not necessary. =D

[The One]

Well thanks anyway :D

[Eolla]

Well who remebers this? In the early 80's when we shot Hoyt TD2's with Kevlar strings (BANG oops broke another one) the "NEW" theory was to shoot with 2 fingers, the BOTTOM two. Yes NO INDEX finger. You took up the string with the middle and ring fingers made a point to the the target with your index finger and drew. You ran your index finger along your jaw bone with the first knuckle locked into the jaws right angle and your thumb around your neck, and away you went. Try it, its freaky, The theory was that the index and ring finger share a tendon and work as one. The index has its own tendon and acts independently so it gets taken out of the equation.

Of course we had 2 long rods out front of our bows and kisser buttons on the string.............

[The One]

yeah, I know someone who shoots like that. Have tried it, but didn't like it. I thought it was the index and middle that shared a muscle, and the ring and pinky that shared another?