Anchor point

[bigfella]

We all know how important the anchor point is in producing reliability in the reproduction of form.
Obviously finding an anchor that is consistently achievable is crucial. But how firmly is that anchor to be held? For example I am able to find my anchor and repeat its location with fairly good consistency, however if I allow the anchor to be held softer on the side of my face I start to loose control of the shot. If I hold the anchor firmly against the side of my face the shots firm up again, obviously because the anchor becomes part of my head and is locked more firmly around my neck and shoulders and also because there is more tension in my back muscles as my elbow is more firmly pulled into alignment.
The point is how firmly should the anchor be held?

[cecile]

What's often said about anchor points (for classic bow archery) is:

They will preferably be as light as possible because you will feel the very point of contact between the string and the skin, and you then will be more reliable because the location will be more precise.

Firm anchor points will prevent good feelings and thus induce less precise location of the string on the face. Also, you will tend to be much less relax than with light contacts.

:wink: I experienced both practices, and found that the first one, even if harder to master is the most efficient.

If you shoot a compound bow, I'd think the same theories will apply; but I have no certainty.

[Flehrad]

I shoot compound, and I use a kisser button, yes, buttons are bad, but it ensures I have a consistant anchor. It also means I can anchor firmly against my face, as I can feel the button contact. Unfortunately, the button contact tends to hurt after prolonged shooting sometimes :lol:

[James Park]

If you shoot compound with a peep sight it is important to remember that your anchor point will move vertically as you change distance (at longer distances your anchor will be lower than for shorter distances. Hence, you simply cannot have an identical anchor all the time in this circumstance. The important thing is that you centre your sight in the peep each shot.
Also note that because your anchor must move vertically, a kisser will not work if you are using a peep sight. They are not compatible and you need to remove one (keep the peep).

[Marcus]

Years of shooting different people's compound bows with incorrect draw legnths and peep heights etc have led me to believe that anchor is not important with a compound, as long as you centre the peep sight in the scope the same everytime you will hit the middle.

US Pro Levi Reed changes his peep height for 90m because of the effect that Jim is talking about.

Another good reason to remove the kisser is that is the kisser moves during a shoot you will be uncomfortable and may blame your peep sight ("my peep moved!") move your peep and your sights will move.

Recurve I would most likely not use them either. For some archers they may need to draw lower to get the right scapula position, then slide the string up the face. A kisser may prevent that from happening correctly.

Good consistant anchor can be found by using a good vertical reference such as the underside of your jaw, and a good horizontal reference such as your nose.

[baldmountain]

No one mentioned this but I think I will. Along with a consistant anchor, I believe it is important to have a consistant head position. Not only vertically but horizontally, (rotationally?), as well.This is especially important for recurve archers. (It's also why you bend at the waist when shooting up or down hill. You are more likely to have a consistant head position than if you are arching you back forward or backwards.)

[2Dogs]

I often thought about moving my Peep for the same reasons as Levi, when I shot 90m.

I chickened out as I thought I would never get it exactly in the same spot to match up with my sight settings.

Might go do some playing. :wink:

[Ferret]

Good timing on this thread as I'd just figured it out for myself i.e. I can't anchor in the same place for all distances with a peep and scope. I shot today not worrying too much about anchor but rather aligning peep over scope and was pleased with the improvement. 8)

[bigfella]

I understand the principle of moving the anchor down the face as you go out to 90m and also the principle of making sure the scope is centred in the peep. However I am unsure of how firmly I should be holding the anchor against my face so that the release hand does not wave around in the air. :-?

Moving the peep for 90 metres is a scary thing 2 Dogs unless there is some way to make sure that you get it back in exactly the same place. :-? :-?

[Eberbachl]

I really don't pay much attention to exactly where my anchor is at all (compound) - the thing that I pay strict attention to is that the peep is lined up with the scope body for every shot.

:bday:

[Eberbachl]

...adding to the above post, I'm certainly aware that the back of my hand does touch the side of my face aroud the rear of the jawbone, but I don't press it into my face with any kind of force though.

:bday:

[2Dogs]

Bigfella I think the only thing you should be worried about regarding anchor is that there is an arrow attached to the bowstring when you are doing it :D:D:D

Your thinking too much!...pull it back, line it up and fire it :wink:

[bigfella]

Bigfella I think the only thing you should be worried about regarding anchor is that there is an arrow attached to the bowstring when you are doing it :D:D:D

That of course is one of my many problems isn't it? :-? :-? :oops:

[OldDog]

Its not the problem it used to be when arrows were much heavier and bows much slower. Todays flat shooting compounds largely negate the peep height prob. (they do for me at least) 8)

[2Dogs]

With that slow bucket of **** Mathews I would think you would be anchoring around you belly button at 90m :lol: 8)

[Robert de Bondt]

Years of shooting different people's compound bows with incorrect draw legnths and peep heights etc have led me to believe that anchor is not important with a compound, as long as you centre the peep sight in the scope the same everytime you will hit the middle.



In theory I would agree with you, but if I'm shooting in the gold at 70M with my wrist release and change over to my Atension release I will group left in the blue at gold height. I would presume that even though the peep is lined up I must either produce some torque on the riser or the position of the release aid on my face must align the string differently in relation to the scope and as such produce different results.

I would appreciate some comments on this.

[2Dogs]

Yes I get the same thing between those two kinds of releases.

My guess it's the twisiting action of the release angle causing some torque.

Ask Professor Parks :D

[James Park]

The mechanical action of releases means that the string comes off the release in different ways from release to release.

[Marcus]

Yep and also if you are using a rope and not a DLoop this is certainly the case as different rope thicknesses will cause different impact points.

[Robert de Bondt]

The mechanical action of releases means that the string comes off the release in different ways from release to release.

That would mean about a 4mm string deviation, with a 1m sight radius, at 70M, which is quite a bit. :cry: , but at least it is consistent. Worthwhile, to know the differences between release aids in case of a swap over during competition.

[Robert de Bondt]

Yep and also if you are using a rope and not a DLoop this is certainly the case as different rope thicknesses will cause different impact points.

I presume the hardness/stiffness of the rope would affect the string deflection too and as such a nice soft rope would be better I would assume.

[Marcus]

It doesn't matter, as long as both release aids have the same rope, but will vary in their consistancy due to wear.
I use an Insatiable and an Atension off a loop and they both shoot into the same spot on the target.

[baldmountain]

The mechanical action of releases means that the string comes off the release in different ways from release to release.

I'm not sure I believe that. I think that you hold your head in slightly different orientations between the two different releases. This change causes a change in how you are looking through the peep and scope. Because you are a skilled archer it shows as movement in your group.

It might be interesting to try holding your head in some different positions and see how it affects your groups. Try pointing your head up, down, strongly right so you have to look over the bridge of your nose, strongly left so you are looking almost straight on through the peep and scope. Head almost resting on your right and left sholders.

[James Park]

I have carefully tested it. For example, some releases have the jaw open to the left (my Stanislowski Avenger, for example), some to the right (most closed jaw Carters, for example), some straight out (caliper releases, for example). Being very careful in the testing to ensure good peep-sight alignment, I have been able to pick differences on the target when swapping between these quite easily.

[CMB50]

[
Worthwhile, to know the differences between release aids in case of a swap over during competition.

I totally agree. had to swap release aids on the weekend after a missfire with one. The next two arrows went left into the 8 after i had been shooting 9/10's. The different release aids had different ropes.

[Harald]

Does this mean that if you use a tight notted D-loop to position your peep
you might introduce so much xtra "uncontrolable" twist in your string that you might get inconsistent shoots due to this.??

Looks like you have to position your peep stright on the string the way it will be at full draw with only natural twist, and then the D-loop likewise.

Might have to stop serving in the peep as it's my experience that the peep
will have a slight change of direction before and after being served in.
(The serving changes the way the string twists at draw)

This I've so far used a slighly off angle knotted D-loop to correct.

(**** looks like I have a job to do) :bday:

[bigfella]

It was a timely coincidence last night that I was browsing through an old copy of Archery Focus magazine from 1997 and I came across and article by Terry and Michelle Ragsdale called

[2Dogs]

It also makes me wonder why many archers tend to persist with them if they do in fact provide the potential for loose shots.

Now your learning. They are the hardest releases to shoot correctly.....consistently.

See Adam and ask to borrow the video "Straight Talk from the Pro's" will give you even more good advice.

[Robert43]

I have found that my arrows will go to the right and high with my Carter back tension release will be diffrent to my Fletchmatic TR off a d loop as well Robert

[Shermo]

When I first started shooting the carter release I noticed that the arrows were going left compared to the scott mongoose. Can't see myself shooting a wrist release again for a very long time, if ever :D

[OldDog]

The left right discrepancy relates to the actual speed of the release mechanism. Releases like the cantilver style fletchmatic are in no way as quick as the sears type triggers, The string actually takes a small paradox off the cantilever style as the force of the bow actually rips the string from the trigger before the release has fully collapsed.
Where the pressure is located in relation to the fulcrum of a release aid also determines the left right impact of the arrow. Bit hard to explain it on here but very few releases have an identical fulcrum, This imparts different pressures at the moment of release and does affect the impact point.

[mbomike]

Go finger release and you won't have any of these problems :wink:

[Marcus]

It also makes me wonder why many archers tend to persist with them if they do in fact provide the potential for loose shots.

Now your learning. They are the hardest releases to shoot correctly.....consistently.

See Adam and ask to borrow the video "Straight Talk from the Pro's" will give you even more good advice.
Or buy it from Urban Archery, in stock now, in PAL version. ;)

[Ozzy]

Go finger release and you won't have any of these problems :wink:

No ? :roll:
The very worst release aid will offer a cleaner release than fingers :wink:

[Harald]

To get a clean finger release you must learn to wash your hands first....

[Robert de Bondt]

Where the pressure is located in relation to the fulcrum of a release aid also determines the left right impact of the arrow. Bit hard to explain it on here but very few releases have an identical fulcrum, This imparts different pressures at the moment of release and does affect the impact point.

I have experienced that. I f I shoot my Atension with a release rope I will get less left error than if I would shoot it straight of the hook on the D-loop.

[bigfella]

Today I set my peep height so that I had a firm anchor on my jaw bone at 70m as suggested by Michelle and Terry Ragsdale that I mentioned in an earlier post.
It worked well for me
I had a nice anchor at 90m and when I was shooting the field I had no obvious cramping up at around 20m
I am quite happy with that :)

[Ferret]

Will be doing the same thing tomorrow my ownself 8)

[bigfella]

G'day Ferret,
The only issue that I found with setting the peep height for 70 metres was that I had to bring the peep height down towards the arrow, making the scope fairly close to the arrow at 90 metres. This may not be a problem for bows that have the arrow speed to make 90 and maintain clearance beneath the scope but if you are a bit touch and go you may have to set it for something like 60 metres.
Hope it goes well for you.
Bigfella

[2Dogs]

Do you move your sight in to the bow at 90m Bigfella?.......better to have that good anchor.

[bigfella]

I do already have the scope set a bit closer to the bow (I have the one setting for all distances) than many others do, so it has not been an issue for me however I agree that if you are shooting with the scope as far out as is possible then it would be better to move it in towards the bow to preserve the anchor. I suppose that it would also depend on how destabilised the anchor becomes at 90 metres if the peep is set for shorter distances. 8)

Oh and of course you are correct! My air shots record is recognised wide and far. GMB standard I believe, only I dont think that Clare will send me a little badge for that. :-?

[Ferret]

Thanks for the advice. Only last week I went to a d loop with refletched arrows and new peep. I got settings out to 70m, at which point my anchor way waving to the fellas behind me. Time to start the process all over with a lower peep...but at least I'm getting used to the process now :lol:

[Ferret]

OK, that worked well 8)

[bigfella]

Glad to hear that Ferret

[Randall Wellings]

Ozzy said

The very worst release aid will offer a cleaner release than fingers

Ahh but remember, "a perfect finger release is as perfect as a perfect release aided release" :o :lol:

have a nice day

[baldmountain]

Ozzy said

The very worst release aid will offer a cleaner release than fingers

Ahh but remember, "a perfect finger release is as perfect as a perfect release aided release" :o :lol:

have a nice day

But much more elusive. ;)

[Marcus]

Ozzy said

The very worst release aid will offer a cleaner release than fingers

Ahh but remember, "a perfect finger release is as perfect as a perfect release aided release" :o :lol:

have a nice day
No it's not

Look at slow motion footage and you will see alot more string interferance with a finger release. Fact, nothing you can do about it.
However, that does not mean that it is not repeatable.

[stodrette]

No it's not in your opinion.......

I think Roo Dog was quoting someone else....hence the "" :wink:

[Randall Wellings]

Marcus

in your opinion.......

:lol: :lol: thanks Stodrette.....

opinions are a big thing down here...if it ain't the same as mine..

"IT SURE AS HELL IS GOING TO BE!!!" :lol:

cheers

[Marcus]

No it's not in your opinion.......

I think Roo Dog was quoting someone else....hence the "" :wink:
Just because it's a quote, doesn't make it right. ;)

[Randall Wellings]

oh alright Marcus.. have it your way :roll: :roll:

but then I suppose one should analyze at the word "perfect"

No one inferred that the finger release when executed perfectly is as "efficient" as the release aided "perfect" release.. or did they :o.. bit like

[stodrette]

In your mind perhaps.... :wink:

others who face a different reality than you....well....I can't actually speak for any of your realities :P

[Marcus]

It's not a matter of me having my way, it's simply fact, and I think you are right with your last post. Fingers can not be as perfect, but they can be bloody consistant, and at the end of the day, that's what counts.

Next Stodette you will be telling me that any form is good form as long as it's repeatable. :roll:

[Randall Wellings]

In your mind perhaps....

others who face a different reality than you....well....I can't actually speak for any of your realities

OUCH!! that SMARTS

:lol: :lol:

cheers

[stodrette]

Marcus,
Your comment makes me think of golf.....and of course, if you do have a repeatable, consistent shot routine, you will succeed....up to a point... :P

Jim Furyk...has the ugliest swing I hav eever seen, but at impact his club head is exactly where it should be. So in essence it didn't matter how he arrived at impact as long as he got the the right spot the same way every time.

I had the "pleasure" of shooting with a woman who's bow arm shoulder was creeping toward her ear, who pulled through the clicker without releasing, creeping forward a bit and then letting the arrow fly. I was amazed that she scored at all, let alone shot a 495 on a hunter round with a FITA recurve......so you see, it is all about consistancy.... :wink:

[Marcus]

That's the problem though strodette, you give quote exceptions. For every 1 person who does it with unorthadox form, 100 Koreans have done it much better with correct technique. Perhaps if these people use correct technique they would be able to put that consistancy to better use. Who said if her form was not better she couldn't have been a 540 shooter?

I hear so many people justify their poor technique because someone beat them with worse. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

[Randall Wellings]

That's the problem though strodette, you give quote exceptions. For every 1 person who does it with unorthadox form, 100 Koreans have done it much better with correct technique. Perhaps if these people use correct technique they would be able to put that consistancy to better use. Who said if her form was not better she couldn't have been a 540 shooter?

I hear so many people justify their poor technique because someone beat them with worse. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Hmmmmm....opinionated...what happened to the IMO

:wink:

[stodrette]

No justification here......and if you read it, I said that they can get to a certain point.....

The thing about human beings is that, we aren't the same, and no matter how some of these people, who you call exceptions, try they just don't have the movement or parts or mind required for the Korean Technique....

For my part, and all that really matters to me, I have adopted the Korean techniques before I knew that was where they came from.....It happens to "fit" me. In fact, I get slightly ticked off when someone does beat me with "bad" repeatable form, but I also know that I am in a stage of develpoment, and can only expect to get better with practice....of doing the same thing over and over again :wink:

[Marcus]

That's your rule Randall, not mine.

What 'parts' are the Koreans born with Strodette that the Americans do not have? It's simple bio-mechanics, it's something ALL humans have, no exceptions based on race, it something we are all capable of doing. Some people may not be as suited to it as others (short arms perhaps) but the basis is the same. Bone alignment and following lines of force. If you take 10 top shooters around the world, 9 will follow these, and 1 won't, yet many use that 1 as the reason for not doing it. Go figure.

[Randall Wellings]

That's your rule Randall, not mine

I forgot..sorry :roll:

"IT SURE AS HELL IS GOING TO BE!!!"

cheers

[stodrette]

Here's another little story for you......

On the TV today, they were interviewing Grace Park, LPGA pro.....
They asked her what she likes to do outside of playing golf...She said
"shop"....she also said that she hates sports and has only just recently tried to pay attention to men's golf under peer pressure.....

I thought, this is great.....imagine if we paid no attention to anyone but ourselves??? If we didn't know what anyone else was shooting or how they were shooting before a tournament...and that we just paid attention to our own game? How much better we would shoot????? Just between me and my coach, like there was no one else out on the field....That would be utopia

[stodrette]

Here's another little story for you......

On the TV today, they were interviewing Grace Park, LPGA pro.....
They asked her what she likes to do outside of playing golf...She said
"shop"....she also said that she hates sports and has only just recently tried to pay attention to men's golf under peer pressure.....

I thought, this is great.....imagine if we paid no attention to anyone but ourselves??? If we didn't know what anyone else was shooting or how they were shooting before a tournament...and that we just paid attention to our own game? How much better we would shoot????? Just between me and my coach, like there was no one else out on the field....That would be utopia

[stodrette]

I would have edited it, but apparently I don't have that priviledge!!!

Marcus,
It has to do with range of motion, the ability to process in your mind that which someone else tells you to do......if, in fact, you think that everyone is the same with the same potential, why is it that you are not at the top of your game?

Why are does every professional and stinking rich golfer have a different swing that works for them?

Why do quarterbacks have different methods of passing?

Why do runners have different gaits?

why are there a multitude of different ways to solve the same problem....?

[Marcus]

It's about fundamentals and execution

Without certain fundamentals you can not reach the top. Form is just one aspect of overall performance, and to get the form right you must have the fundamentals of form correct. Most archers, including myself, do not have the fundamentals right yet.
Quaterbacks coming out of college with huge passing records often find themselves spending their first training camp working on fundamental things such as release and footwork. The Texans first pick was QB David Carr. Highly talented, yet the coaching staff had to deprogram him and start from scratch because he released the ball too high in his arm's arch.
One of the best in the league and yet it's back to step one.

Michael Jordan, best ever, was not considered anything great untill he learnt to shoot. He did this by hiring a shooting coach who taught him the fundamentals.

Yes, some people can not do what is fundamentally correct, but the reality is, they will never be the greatest, so why emulate them? Why base your technique on someone with poor form who shoot pretty good?

My wife came back from New York, 17th overall in her first WAC. Most would have rested on their laurals. Instead she came back and said 'my form isn't good enough' and started ficing it. It was oainful to watch and difficult to do, now even on windy days she is shooting higher scores than she did in New York (which was a competition PB for her).

Why am I not the greatest?
My form is not there yet, but it's improving. Not because I said 'well everyone is different so I need to find what works for me'. No instead I said 'If the top shooters in the world all have the same basic elements to their shot, then that's what I need to do.'
Since then my scores are improving....however,
Form is one part of being a champion and reaching your potential. Without the mental side and the technical side you won't get there, I need work on my mental side as well, untill I fix that as well I will not execute correctly. My form is good enough to het me 1350+, just need to execute it now.

So, question is, do you want to look at the 90% of top shooters from around the world who use excellent technique, or that 10% who use poor technique but get pretty good scores?

[stodrette]

It was a rhetorical question only.......

The point is, that most humans do not aspire to be the greatest, and adequate is good enough for them....

Perfect for you, is not perfect for Randall....you have different minds, different thought processes......

You may have an opinion, but absolutely nothing, not even the fundamentals, are written in stone.....

Success for some is not defined in a way that you would define it....but plenty of room left for arguement in all of this :)

[Marcus]

Everyone wants to be the best they can be, some are just afraid or too lazy to try.

[2Dogs]

Some Good Points Noel!.............err sorry Marcus.. :rofl:

[baldmountain]

Everyone wants to be the best they can be, some are just afraid or too lazy to try.

True. I'd add too busy, or too many other responsibilities, or too many other desires.

I'd argue that there is no such thing as "perfect" form. People have been talking about the 10 best archers in the world. If you examine these ten archers you'll see ten different "perfect" forms. Yes, they have a lot of the same fundamentals, but each is unique. Any coach can teach the basic fundamentals, but only a truly great coach takes the individual into account helps them build their "perfect" form. It won't look exactly like any other great archer perfect forn but it will be perfect for them.

So you can learn the basics of good form from almost any coach, or even yourself. But you shouldn't try to emulate one of the ten best archers in the world. It's not your form. It's theirs. When you are ready to build your perfect form find the best coach you can and let him help you build your perfect form.

[Ozzy]

It's about fundamentals and execution
So, question is, do you want to look at the 90% of top shooters from around the world who use excellent technique, or that 10% who use poor technique but get pretty good scores?

A good point Marcus.
I have the DVD of the last World Championships Women Compound which I have looked at numerous times & it is interesting to see the poor technique of some of the top archers of a few countries (Canada etc.).
I love watching the really top ones with good style (all 3 French team girls, Mary Zorn USA, Holland etc.), but it simply is not a pleasure to watch archers with bad technique, is it ? :roll:

[2Dogs]

Yes Ozzy but all those people you saw with ****ty form were shooting over 1350 :D

Take Dejan Sitar for example......his form looks like ****!

Yet he has shot some of the highest FITA scores around. He spoke to Clint a few weeks ago and his best FITA is a 1420.

Compound is far more forgiving to form.......95% of it is mastering the release.

Recurve is very different, but again I've seen many different ways to do it. The Koreans have so many Archers shooting, its really a numbers game.

[Marcus]

2Dogs
Did you see pics of Dijan's form at the 2001 WAC when he won? Much much better than the other pictures I have seen. Clints was better, but you could see why Dijan shot the scores he did. The pictures from the NY ones his form looked terrible, and his scores were lower. hhhhmmmm

[2Dogs]

Yeah but I've seen other photos of Dejan from 2001 and before, and he really hasn't changed his form much at all.

Has that big ugly bent arm. But hey it works for him.

I think the comparisons bewteen a Golf swing and Archery are good. Both require certain fundamentals to be mastered, but you will see bucket loads of very good golfers who look like crap.

At the end of the day, its all about repeatability.

[Marcus]

Here is Dijan in Beijing, middle shot

http://www.archery.org/NewYork2003/start/rechts.jpg

[2Dogs]

That photo of him in 2001 at the world champs is deceptive.

I've seen other photos of him from the same shoot at different angles, and his bow arm is very bent. Just like it was at the WC this year.

[Flex]

Doesn't look very bent to me :o

[Steve B]

I know this aint part of the tread and the topic, but how does one get a copy of the DVD of the last world champs ? Would love to have a look at the form of the archers involved.....

[2Dogs]

http://www.releaseaid.com/images/dejan.JPG

I'll find the other photos

[Ozzy]

I'm the first to admit that Compound is far more forgiving on form than Recurve, but watching a superb release along with most other aspects in place it indicates to me an archer making the most of any natural ability can offer . :o
Looking at the French female compound team, I would suggest that their Coaching is tops. :wink: Superb shoulder /release etc. etc.

[Ozzy]

I'm the first to admit that Compound is far more forgiving on form than Recurve, but watching a superb release along with most other aspects in place it indicates to me an archer making the most of any natural ability can offer . :o
Looking at the French female compound team, I would suggest that their Coaching is tops. :wink: Superb shoulder /release etc. etc.

[2Dogs]

remember this and we were debating if Dejan had a bent arm

http://205.214.73.218/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=399078

I rest my case :wink:

Blows the form theories out the door

[OldDog]

could be like that indian fast bowler murili wheelbarrow. Just claim he was born that way and it really is straight. :D :D

[Michael Naray]

could be like that indian fast bowler murili wheelbarrow. Just claim he was born that way and it really is straight.

I wasn't born that way; my bow arm is permanently "bent" due to a nasty fall. I can't quite lock the elbow anymore, or extend it as far as my right elbow.

Ironically, my elbows are originally hyperflexive (bendable past 180 degrees), so now that I have one that was shattered, its fully extended position is dead on 180 degrees - perfect for archery! :wink:

Note: If your elbow is bending too much, I would not recommend attempting to fix it by falling off a cliff. There are easier ways to correct your form! :wink:

-m


"I didn't say there was nothing better than it
I said there was nothing like it.''

- The Red Queen

[Flex]

Pretty sure I have a bigger dend in my bow arm :(

Not for much longer I hope :D

[bigfella]

remember this and we were debating if Dejan had a bent arm

I rest my case :wink:

Blows the form theories out the door

I've gotta say this for you 2 Dogs, you are a real detective, not letting up on a case :o , maybe you have a bit of fox terrier in you.. perhaps a close relation?

[Harald]

I might be wrong but if you look into Kyodu me think those guys are drawing the bow above their head and then settle the drawn bow down into position ( with draw hand even behind their cheek??) They've only done and refined this for a couple of thousand years so I would not pay to much attention to them......

Me myself I'm very careful not to anchor to hard against my butt when shooting... 8)

[Flame]

remember this and we were debating if Dejan had a bent arm

I rest my case :wink:

Blows the form theories out the door

I've gotta say this for you 2 Dogs, you are a real detective, not letting up on a case :o , maybe you have a bit of fox terrier in you.. perhaps a close relation?

I think wombat would be closer :D

[bigfella]

remember this and we were debating if Dejan had a bent arm

I rest my case :wink:

Blows the form theories out the door

I've gotta say this for you 2 Dogs, you are a real detective, not letting up on a case :o , maybe you have a bit of fox terrier in you.. perhaps a close relation?

I think wombat would be closer :D

How close a relation do you think, Flame? :-? Grandfather perhaps or maybe a generation closer? :wink:

[Flame]

verrrrrrrrrrrry close relation :D