Holding/Transfer

[recurve boy]

All those who were at the Talent IDs, any ideas on how to execute the Holding/Transfer part correctly? Also, what should it feel like, and any ideas on a drill I can do to get this part of the shot accomplished faster.

I think I understand what is supposd to happen. I just don't know if I'm doing it right. Time to see the coach ...

[mike]

What's holding/transfer?

[Robert de Bondt]

What's holding/transfer?

My understanding is as follows:

Actually, it is the loading/transfer phase which, if properly executed, will results in holding.
To draw the string to the anchor point one has to use at least some upper, fore arm and hand muscles, as the string can not be pulled back by the back muscles alone. Therefore, when coming to anchor this tension in the upper, fore arm and hand muscles has to be transferred as much as possible to the bigger core muscles.

If there is continuous movement from the draw to the release, you will pass the holding point without being able to make this transfer and achieve the holding position and inconsistency will be the result.

Only from the holding the aiming should start and the release should ideally take no more than 1-2 seconds from that point. The transfer/holding phase would normally be about

[mike]

Ummmm.... :-?

Sorry Robert, can you condense that into words (and preferably pictures :) ). Didn't really get what you are saying, especially reference to laws of inertia and acceleration...

Are you refering to the semi-pause/slow-down just in front of your face where you kinda drop your shoulders and bring the bow to full draw (engaging the back muscles more fully)?

I have not shot recurve much, but from what I have done, i understand it [the draw cycle] as follows:

Pre-tension string
raise bow (making the "T-shape")
Draw to the slow down point
bring to anchor (this I take it is the "transfer" point?), aim
continue the drawing motion by squeezing back muscles
Relax fingers upon clicker going click

(Hit the X)


:D

[Robert de Bondt]

Mike,

At the moment lets forget about the Laws of Acceleration and Inertia, as I think it might just complicated things a bit too much at this stage.

The coming to anchor should be a much more rapid movement, rather than a slow deliberate draw and it should preferably not slow down when coming to anchor. The draw and anchoring should be done in one continuous movement.

The position of the body, shoulders and scapulas should be preset before raising the bow and commencing the draw.

The anchor point is the beginning of the transfer, where most of the tension should be transferred to the core muscles. It is the area of fine adjustment.

The expansion to come through the clicker is the result of the scapulas being squeezed towards the vertebrae and the chest opening up. Coming through the clicker must come from this expansion and not through trying to pull through the clicker.

On the click of the clicker, which should be sensed rather than listened for, the fingers refuse to hold the string and the string pushes the fingers out of the way.
The fingers coming of the string should be totally relaxed and are bend just about like as when they were located on the string. Straight fingers during the follow through are an indication of an archer trying to consciously open the fingers.

The expansion should continue for at least another second after the release, as otherwise what is known as

[mike]

Mike,

At the moment lets forget about the Laws of Acceleration and Inertia, as I think it might just complicated things a bit too much at this stage.



Probably not, but I would be interested in knowing how these Newtonian principles fit in to the "telling the student what to do" part of coaching.

I agree with the fluid movement thing, that you shouldn't break up the draw cycle too much.

However, it is a bow, and you need to aim (whatever 'aiming' is to you -- don't want to start that debate). This requires a change from a powerful dynamic action (to draw to full draw) to a holding, relativly static, position whilst you aim (recognising that you are still pulling the string back as you do this, just more slowly). This means slowing down at some point to make the action more deliberate and controlled.

Al I was wondering was how one defines the "holding/transfer"? What is it?

[recurve boy]

Al I was wondering was how one defines the "holding/transfer"? What is it?

I think the first paragraph of Roberts first reply explians it. And as Robert corrected, it should be Loading/Transfer and then Holding.

No replies on peoples experiences. Does that mean I'm the only one (on the forum at least) attempting to make the recommended changes? C'mon, someone must be trying out things other than SPT.

[CW]

Actually, it is the loading/transfer phase which, if properly executed, will results in holding.
To draw the string to the anchor point one has to use at least some upper, fore arm and hand muscles, as the string can not be pulled back by the back muscles alone. Therefore, when coming to anchor this tension in the upper, fore arm and hand muscles has to be transferred as much as possible to the bigger core muscles.

Pretty much sums up what I was told. I

[2Dogs]

yeah you would have developed great back muscles from all that scrubbing you do!!!...SPT girl :wink:

[CW]

:fist:


You like drinking toilet water don't you 2Dogs. :D

[DrRalph]

[quote=mike]No replies on peoples experiences. Does that mean I'm the only one (on the forum at least) attempting to make the recommended changes? C'mon, someone must be trying out things other than SPT.

I'm with you RC. I got a lot from the talk by Mr Lee, and heard the draw/anchor/hold-transfer-1-2-release process described fully for the first time (!) I'd been given bits and pieces before, but none of the coaches at my initial stages seem to have had a clear idea of what they were talking about.

After the talk I have been working on my form, but some of the changes (especially my bow arm) are quite large, and I am finding that I have developed a set of back muscles too high up near my neck, and not lower down. When I tried to do the right form with Mr Lee taking a look I found I could barely hold the bow at full draw.

The muscle groups I need are obviously still weak after all this time :(

So I have put away the bow for two weeks now, and have been working with a theraband on an off while basicly resting from shooting altogether.

This new year I'm going to get a pair of 20lb limbs and try to rebuild my form from the ground up nearly.

It was exciting to get the real info, but dissapointing to realise that I was going up the wrong path. I was pretty dissabpointed with my early coaches too. :x I'd say about 60% of what I was doing was OK, but it was basicly flawed in that I could not transfer the load from my arms to my back properly at all.

Any advice on how to forget the wrong form?

I also agree, the anchor-hold/transfer was the part that was the most different to what I had learned. I am grateful the Robert here has also expanded on it. Seemingly no one in the ACT outside the AIS knew about it properly, of if they did they weren't telling anyone.

Good luck, and hopefully by March or so I'll see some benefits.

R

[Flame]

Ralph

Keep working with the Theraband to get it right.

CW has been doing this this and can now use the correct back muscles when transferring to the bow.

It takes a lot of work as you can get it working with the Theraband and then when you go to the bow and try it doesn't work or you can get it occasionally.

Dropping the poundage on the bow can help.

Using the Theraband before you pick up the bow also helps to remind yourself what muscles to use when you do use the bow and this in time will be come automatic and you will eventually forget your bad form

Practice Practice Practice

A lot of work but you will see the results - I have with CW

[cecile]

http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/technique/tn_brascorde21.jpg
http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/technique/tn_brascorde.jpg

For me, the transfert starts during the drawing of the string (phase 2 of the above drawings) when shoulders begin to get aligned with the bow arm.
In order to be able to have a back tension, the drawing arm shall be enough high: the elbow shall be levelled with the shoulder or a little higher. If not acheived, the tension comes mainly from the triceps of the drawing arm, which is not recommended.

I agree with Robert, the drawing shall be fast until the anchor points are reached. The slower it is, the higher the loss of energy will be and the more difficult the aiming will be.

I found out that this is much important to keep the following in mind:
- elbow at least the height of the shoulder,
- bow arm alignment (bone-to-bone alignment in direct line with the collar bone) acheived before drawing the string (this arm shall not move after the draw starts),
- fast drawing,
- during training session: focussing on back muscles at full draw,
- during training session: during the release, focussing on the movements of the back muscles.

Training we eye closed is very helpfull in order to focus on the back muscles and feel them work and move.
If you shoot recurve, ask a compound friend of yours to lend you a release aid, and shoot one or two times using it on a blank butt. It will help you feel the back tension and the movement of the muscles during the release. Use the release aid only to make you have the proper feeling before you train on the back tension using your fingers.

:bday: And Happy New Year !!

[2Dogs]

Well I actually read this post tonight, and it has explained quite a few things with respect to Recurve shooting.

I too headed up the garden path for many years with recurve, and every now and then I strayed onto the right path.........but I could never explain why it felt so good and easy on those "purple" days.And there were NO coaches around that could explain it either. The guys are lucky to have Mr Lee around or we would still be struggling along.

So Raplh you want to relearn?....I stopped shooting for 6 years and that helped me unlearn . Don't recommend that. I was taught that if you stand up close to the target and shoot blank bale it would take say 10000 shots to become embedded into muscle memory. Did it with your eyes closed and it would take less then 5000.......do it in the dark with you eyes open.....3000 shots.

Don't know if any of those stats are true, but it was what Bernie Adams a well respeced ex coach from up this way taught...and it worked for me.

[recurve boy]

I have to echo what Flame said. Practice practice practice. I actually made some of the changes to the recommended way, sometime before the camps. Took ages. I don't shoot consistently well (some days really good, some days bad) though and I think the whole sequence and timing thing is the key. The transfer/hold bit has me stumpped. I can do it, but not fast enough ... back to work.

[Flame]

The guys are lucky to have Mr Lee around or we would still be struggling along.

Spot on

CW was lucky she hadn't picked up any bad archery habits and with the help of Mr Lee she is on the right path

The kids have to be taught the correct technique young else it will take ages to retrain

[kgk]

[quote="recurve boy"][quote=mike]I got a lot from the talk by Mr Lee, and heard the draw/anchor/hold-transfer-1-2-release process described fully for the first time (!) I'd been given bits and pieces before, but none of the coaches at my initial stages seem to have had a clear idea of what they were talking about.

Can you give a few paragraphs of summary? :)

kgk

[Harald]

Preferenly in Korean so we don't miss something due to bad translation...
(or did I miss something her, would that be the opposite of????.... Never mind) :D :D :D

[kgk]

So what's the deal about "draw/anchor/hold-transfer-1-2-release?"

I can guess, but it would be so much more exciting if somebody told me for sure. :)

kgk

[recurve boy]

So what's the deal about "draw/anchor/hold-transfer-1-2-release?"

I can guess, but it would be so much more exciting if somebody told me for sure. :)

kgk
Actually its setup & transfer, draw and hold, create a barrel, release. But that's all you're getting out of me. Can't give away too many serects :D No, I'm re-thinking it and I do not comment on things I'm still thinking about.

[kgk]

Actually its setup & transfer, draw and hold, create a barrel, release. But that's all you're getting out of me.

What's "create a barrel?" :)

(See, if you only have to talk about one part of it, then that's not a violation of your rule about talking about things that are still under consideration.)

kgk

[Marcus]

create a barrell is where you get your bow arm into the correct alignment, like the barrell of a gun.

[Robert de Bondt]

create a barrell is where you get your bow arm into the correct alignment, like the barrell of a gun.


Earlier in this thread I mentioned the way I have learned from Mr.Lee what Transfer/Holding meant. He likes to refer to the consistency of the triangle made between the chin and the shoulders as the "barrel of the gun", which obviously includes also the correct positioning of all body parts.

If everything is correct the "barrel of the gun" is longer and as such more accurate. Also if there is no proper Holding the "barrel of the gun" is proportionally shorter and as such less accurate. I think we have to be careful not to take it to mean literally a barrel of a gun.

[Richard_Stock]

I tried some of this stuff last night it helped to speed my shot up. thanks for the help.

[kgk]

[quote=mike]What's holding/transfer?Therefore, when coming to anchor this tension in the upper, fore arm and hand muscles has to be transferred as much as possible to the bigger core muscles.

Only from the holding the aiming should start and the release should ideally take no more than 1-2 seconds from that point. The transfer/holding phase would normally be about

[kgk]

Actually its setup & transfer, draw and hold, create a barrel, release.

These would be the components, but are they really in that order?

Or would it be

draw -> setup clicker -> transfer and create a barrel (at once) -> hold -> release?

Can the "transfer" really be thought of as a relaxation of the arms, shoulders, etc.? (To the maximum possible?)

kgk

[Robert de Bondt]

If I add "setup the clicker" to the above list, does the transfer start before, during or after I setup the clicker?

kgk

I would suggest to check the clicker when anchoring, for if the clicker set-up is not right, neither will the shot. Therefore it should be before loading and transfer.

[clever_guy]

"Only from the holding the aiming should start and the release should ideally take no more than 1-2 seconds from that point. The transfer/holding phase would normally be about

[Ronny]

At the moment i am setting up a chart with the process that Mr Lee wants it will have pictures of the AIS archer doing it with a small bit of info under it. I Hope i can get these posters with this info to most arco clubs in australia. The pictures will make it easier to understand.{i hope} :D

[kgk]

At the moment i am setting up a chart with the process that Mr Lee wants it will have pictures of the AIS archer doing it with a small bit of info under it. I Hope i can get these posters with this info to most arco clubs in australia. The pictures will make it easier to understand.{i hope} :D

PLEASE post it here so those of us thousands of miles away can enjoy your hard work! :D Or, perhaps (even better?) UrbanArchery can sell them?

kgk

[recurve boy]

Somehow, I don't think you'll learn what you want from Ronny's poster kgk. Unless he's make a ****ing huge poster...

[Ronny]

Well i'll try to make it as simple as i can for everyone and have it in stages. :D

[kgk]

Well i'll try to make it as simple as i can for everyone and have it in stages. :D

Did you have any time to work on the poster? If so, I would just love to study a copy of it! :)

kgk

[Jules]

Yeah! C'mon - make with the poster already.