Correct Alignment and Strength

[recurve boy]

After shooting today, I was wondering how much draw weight your skeletal structure will actually off load from your muscles. I also have a feeling that correct alignment doesn't do much for you endurance-wise, if you are unable to load your muscles correctly...

Any opinions?

[James Park]

I think one of the tricks is to learn to relax the muscles you do not need to use. For example, if you have your string arm elbow on the line of force you do not need to use your upper arm muscles at all.

[Michael Naray]

I was wondering how much draw weight your skeletal structure will actually off load from your muscles.

Good one. You can calculate the mechanical advantage provided (or, per contra, the mechanical penalty suffered) by varying the angles of the skeletal elements when you come to full draw. Just draw a diagram with the key angles marked (fingers, elbow, humerus, acromion) and use some sine and cosine rules. The constant will always be the tension that is your draw weight, but if you play with the diagram and vary, say, the angle between your scapula and humerus by a few degrees then you can calculate how much extra force your biceps/triceps group exerts to keep your hand against your face.

correct alignment doesn't do much for you endurance-wise, if you are unable to load your muscles correctly
I think one of the tricks is to learn to relax the muscles you do not need to use.

Also true. If you are unable to control your muscles adequately under load then you will end up with high levels of isometric tension in opposing muscle groups. You will, in essence, be forcing your muscles to pull against each other in an effort to maintain equilibrium. You have to be able to trust your skeletal alignment enough to allow the relevant muscles to relax.

You are right that this control will greatly influence your endurance, as constant isometric tension in your muscles is exhausting. As a demonstration, try clenching your fists and then tense up every muscle in your upper body, as though you're flexing like a bodybuilder. Notice how quickly everything starts to hurt - and shake! That's exactly the kind of opposing tension that will exist if you can't control your muscles properly at full draw, with good alignment. This is one reason Mr. Lee places so much emphasis on having correct structure, and why he showed us so many MEG (myoelectrographs - muscle tension diagrams) at the talent ID day.

Good thread Recurve Boy.

-mikey

"It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
- Miyamoto Musashi

[recurve boy]

You are right that this control will greatly influence your endurance, as constant isometric tension in your muscles is exhausting. As a demonstration, try clenching your fists and then tense up every muscle in your upper body, as though you're flexing like a bodybuilder. Notice how quickly everything starts to hurt - and shake! That's exactly the kind of opposing tension that will exist if you can't control your muscles properly at full draw, with good alignment. This is one reason Mr. Lee places so much emphasis on having correct structure, and why he showed us so many MEG (myoelectrographs - muscle tension diagrams) at the talent ID day.

That's a nice trick! I've always had problems with shaking. Does that mean I've been over bowed for the last 3 yrs?

My form seems to be OK though, all Mr. Lee had to say to me was, "That's good!"

So how do I fix this shaking? Go down to a lower poundage and start to work my way back up to 42#?

[Michael Naray]

So how do I fix this shaking? Go down to a lower poundage and start to work my way back up to 42#?

As Matt Lee recommended at the Talent ID talks, I'd say "do your SPT every day." I've been doing some - though not every day - and it helps enormously. It will specifically help with the "relaxation" part of this thread because the only way you're going to hold your current bow weight for one minute intervals for an hour is if you snap to full draw and then relax - really relax into your correct posture and structure. Instead of trying to figure out how to control all your muscles in just the one or two seconds you have at full draw when shooting, the SPT exercise will - should - give you at least 30 seconds to feel what all your muscles are doing. If it is too difficult, either wind down or use a practice bow and try flexing and relaxing different muscles whilst at full draw.

With the lower pound bow, you might only need a few sessions to train yourself to isolate and control all your important muscle groups in the lower arm, upper arm, shoulder and back. Try deliberately thinking your way through those four groups while you are at full draw; "now flex my wrist, forearm, upper arm, shoulder, back. And again; wrist, forearm...etc."

This will teach you - it works great for me! - to control all those muscles so that when you are shooting - or SPTing - you can go "lift - BANG to full draw - and RELAX - back tension - hold - aim - release."

If your form looks good then it is unlikely you are overbowed, as that would cause you to start shaking yourself apart almost immediately. If you are shooting half a FITA before you start shaking then this fatigue is more likely to come from too much tension - as we've been talking about - or simply a lack of endurance rather than lack of power. SPT will help with all of these issues.

If you've been shooting 42# for three years then I wouldn't bother winding down. Just start the SPT at the longest interval you can hold - even if only 5 or 10 seconds - and work your way up. What you have to remember is that SPT is a muscle utilisation exercise, not a muscle building exercise. Given the size of your muscles, there is a theoretical limit to their strength, but most people can only exert about 60% of the theoretical maximum force that should be available. They don't know how to use their own muscles properly. I have climbed with people who have been lab tested and shown to have muscle utilisation figures of 95%. They're not necessarily big people, but they can do chin-ups off one little finger with the other arm behind their back.

SPT will get your muscle utilisation up quickly and get your hold times up and shaking down. As Matt Lee said, you'll get the same improvements in a month of SPT that you would get from six months of lifting weights.

-mikey

"To cut and to slash are two different things."
- Miyamoto Musashi

[robbo]

Can you discribe SPT?

[DrRalph]

With the lower pound bow, you might only need a few sessions to train yourself to isolate and control all your important muscle groups in the lower arm, upper arm, shoulder and back. Try deliberately thinking your way through those four groups while you are at full draw; "now flex my wrist, forearm, upper arm, shoulder, back. And again; wrist, forearm...etc."


I must say I am a fan of having a low poundage bow around for form work. I use theraband on an off everyday - mostly to reinforce my visualisation of shooting, but it really doesn't have the true feel of drawing a bow (but you can carry a theraband in your pocket to work and use it anytime). I put 22lb limbs into my bow - then I can work in identifying the sepearate muscle groups by feel and in my mind more easily than getting it all together at once under full load.

Also SPTs with a 22lb bow are a great warm up for full strength SPTs afterwards.

[recurve boy]

Can you discribe SPT?

First, take your bow and try and hold it at full draw as long as you can. Time yourself. Remember this time. The SPT excercise is to hold it for this time, then rest for double that. Repeat. Do for an hour. Everyday.

I think it is important that you keep up your form as well. The second you feel like you are collapsing, stop. I remember at the Talent IDs there were several people with pretty long holding times but only 1 (that I can remember - I think it was mike here) could genuinely hold it for so long. Everyone else was so obviously collapsing.

I think that not doing any theraband excercises (for form) at the camp, resulted in SPT being over emphasized. I hear everyone is doing SPT but very few seem to have bothered to put away their bows for two weeks as suggested.

As for theraband, I have an extra long piece of it. 3m. Its too much, but I think 2m is a good length since you can fold it and increase the poundage. SPT with no bow! With 3m however you can step on one end to sort of simulate the weight of a bow. But I find its way too heavy.

[robbo]

Thanks, but is it any good doing it with a compound, as you are only holding less than 1/2 the weight?

[cecile]

Elements of Form
The Bow Arm by Steve Ellison (extract)

3.1 c) Muscles and forces
It is worth considering which muscles are needed to generate the bow arm forces involved in holding the bow, and how they are transmitted.
The vertical lift is generated mainly by the deltoid contracting towards the clavicle and scapula. The scapula is in turn held in place mainly by the upper and central trapezius; the clavicle by its association with the scapula, assisted (possibly) by the subclavial muscle.
The lateral force exerted by the deltoid (among others) is transmitted to the spine in part by the trapezius, but in this case, the rhomboid is also important in holding the scapula in place.
The lateral force from the shoulder is transmitted to the bow via the elbow. Typical recommendations place the elbow outward; in principle, the arm can then flex inward. To keep the elbow straight the triceps have to be in play (Figure 5).
http://ceciletoxo.free.fr/function.jpg
Implications for best practice
+ Minimising the bow arm/draw force line angle (closing the stance) minimises superfluous muscle use
+ A front shoulder below the draw-force line reduces strain on the upper deltoid

[Flehrad]

I know that this is not entirely related to the thread, but I thought I'd mention another action of muscles with relation to tension stress.
As mentioned by Jim Park and Mikey, when you tense up your muscles, you induce stress, and very quickly you will start to shake and get tremors etc basically muscle fatigue.

However, in a conversation with a biophysicist only a few weeks ago at Christmas, he was very interested in knowing muscles usage in archery as he is working on another muscle action.

Muscles apparently also generate a consistant low frequency tremor around 9Hz, however this only occurs when the muscle is in use.
He was interested because with target sports, at the top end competitors, he was sure that the ability to control the frequency movement would make a difference such as in firearm events where shooters fire inbetween heartbeats.

Just thought I'd throw that in for interest.

[Robert de Bondt]

Thanks, but is it any good doing it with a compound, as you are only holding less than 1/2 the weight?

Pretty good question Robbo.

Lets look why we should do SPT? There are various SPT exercises, such as Holding, Set Drawing and Expansion. They are designed to built form, strength and endurance for archery specific muscles.
I would think SPT, as practiced for recurve, would have a limited value for building strength and endurance for compounders. However, repeated drawing exercises and holding for 30 secs, whilst maintaining form and aiming, whilst ensuring you don

[Zoe]

What does SPT stand for?

[2Dogs]

"SPT baked beans and spagetti..............for hungry little human Beans"

NO? :wink:

[Flame]

no :D

[Clare Barnes]

What does SPT stand for?

S**** P****** T****** :wink: 8)

With you being the Forum Prude I really dare not write it here! :D

[Robert de Bondt]

when related to 2Dogs it will probably mean Sexual Perverted Trials, but to others it is Special Physical Training- coming to think of it, it is probably not necessarily mutual exclusive :roll: :lol:

[clever_guy]

STP = Reversals

I think more accurately it