Do we really have control?

[James Park]

A number of threads have covered such things as punching, freezing, etc.
These are usually tied back to the way the archer thinks.
For example, punching is usually tied to the archer banging the release off as the sight drifts into (or through, or near, etc) the centre of the target. For elite archers this is not the case: elite archers are able to hold the sight quite steadily on the centre of the target and then smoothly operate the release (or clicker).
I think this is possibly the greatest difference between champions and average archers.
It seems to me that the difference is in the way the champion archers think compared to the way the average archers think. (There are of course differences in refinement of technique and equipment, but these are relatively easy to correct).
Hence, in creating a champion, and given that we can get the technique and equipment correct, it is the way the archer thinks that matters. This will be the difference between a compounder shooting 1300 or 1350, or between an expert shooting 1370 and Clint shooting 1400.
So: how should we go about it?

[Flex]

Champions believe they will shoot a 10.Also have the mental disipline to
not shoot the shoots they should have let down.Plus of course alot of practice.IMO

[James Park]

My psychologist (my wife) tells me:
- That simply because the expert standing next to me does something differently to me and gets better results is not sufficient to convince my subconscious that I need to change. For example, if Clint uses his release device differently to me (he certainly does it better than me), gets better results (certainly true), and I know this is the reason (perhaps it is), it is still not sufficient to stop my mind from letting me get into bad habits with it.
- That in learning something, we continually (subconsciously) press the boundaries to see if we can get away with less. If we are occassionally rewarded by the lesser approach it encourages us to try it again. For example, if we punched the release device and got away with it we are likely to be subconsciously happy to try it again.
Asking her how to get around it:
- She noted that what we need is that each time we (for example) punch the trigger, a lightening bolt decends and vaporises the arrow before it gets to the target and we score nothing. That way we might get sick of the expense and loss of points and start to do it properly. (On the other hand it sounds to me like a neat party trick).
- She wondered how we would get on shooting an indoor round where the only scoring ring was the 10, and for the rest we scored zero. That is, have a black face with no rings at all except for a gold 10 ring. Will have to try that.

[Marcus]

Good stuff from Val there.

I have been very tempted to coach people by enforcing a "If you punch you give me 5 pushups" rule. What worked great when I coached grid iron was if you did something wrong one of the coaches would level you. Made you try harder.

Punching's biggest problem is that it provides instant reward and works better the first time. Convicing someone who just punched in 6 10's that it is bad is almost impossible.

if Clint uses his release device differently to me (he certainly does it better than me), gets better results (certainly true), and I know this is the reason (perhaps it is), it is still not sufficient to stop my mind from letting me get into bad habits with it.

Was coaching a guy at our club who was complaiing of inconsistant groups and was ripping his release off I said "The difference between him, myself and Jim Park is how well we use our release aids. Clint is the master. Neither Jim or Clint rip it off, that is the key to shooting well". He shot and ripped it off "I just want to work on my grip first, I'll get there". No amount of nagging from me would get him to squeeze the release, because shooting them in the middle was more important (which he wasn't doing)

Hard one to teach.

[Zoe]

I have been very tempted to coach people by enforcing a "If you punch you give me 5 pushups" rule. What worked great when I coached grid iron was if you did something wrong one of the coaches would level you. Made you try harder.


Perhaps more importantly Marcus, what do you do/say when one of your people prone to punching squeezes the shot off?

One positive reinforcer that comes immediately to mind is Rod Miller and his colourful flowery praise of someone

[mike]

So does this mean that when the person punches say 3 shots in a row you fall to the ground, start shaking and frothing at the mouth?

[mike]

Seriously though, I agree that the nature of human psychology is pretty much against us in the shooting department.

The only thing that I found to overcome it was to start really enjoying a well squeezed release that ends in an explosive suprise release. That and finding a release aid that is easy and comfortable to operate correctly. For me that was a little finger release (Carter Same Old Thing).

Each individual unfortunately needs to find what works for them. This can take some time and committment, but to go the next step it must be done.

[Marcus]

Yeah Rod is great, he reminds sometimes why we play this game, for the feeling from that perfectly executed shot. Can't beat it.

Positive reinforcement is vital to coaching well, however it can be difficult at times, and sometimes you need to put it straight up on the line. "You are grouping bad because of XYZ"
However if they then turn around and do it right follow up with "That could be the greatest shot of all time!!"

Each individual unfortunately needs to find what works for them. This can take some time and committment, but to go the next step it must be done.
and the purchase of many release aids!

[James Park]

- She wondered how we would get on shooting an indoor round where the only scoring ring was the 10, and for the rest we scored zero. That is, have a black face with no rings at all except for a gold 10 ring. Will have to try that.
Marcus,
Could you get a couple of archers to try this? I would be interested to see if their technique and grouping improved.

[James Park]

A related exercise that Bryce and I have tried many times is: shoot an end, and each archer leave each arrow that scores a 10 in the target. Shoot the next end with the remaining arrows, and so on until one archer has all six in the 10. If you had two ten's first end, then for the next end you shoot only four arrows, and so on. In this competition, nothing matters except a ten, and it is very demanding indeed.
Bryce and I have often done this at 90M - nothing like getting 3 in the 10 ring on the first end to really pressure the other archers.
You can do it indoors as well (Bryce and I then use the X-ring).

[Marcus]

- She wondered how we would get on shooting an indoor round where the only scoring ring was the 10, and for the rest we scored zero. That is, have a black face with no rings at all except for a gold 10 ring. Will have to try that.
Marcus,
Could you get a couple of archers to try this? I would be interested to see if their technique and grouping improved.
No problem.

We did an interesting one one night where we put up faces where the rings were the same size, but different colour. The X became gold, the 10 red, the 9 blue etc. Bloody difficult with many archers who had been shooting gold all evening then shooting the equivlent of 8's and 7's.

A related exercise that Bryce and I have tried many times is: shoot an end, and each archer leave each arrow that scores a 10 in the target. Shoot the next end with the remaining arrows, and so on until one archer has all six in the 10. If you had two ten's first end, then for the next end you shoot only four arrows, and so on. In this competition, nothing matters except a ten, and it is very demanding indeed.
Bryce and I have often done this at 90M - nothing like getting 3 in the 10 ring on the first end to really pressure the other archers.
You can do it indoors as well (Bryce and I then use the X-ring).
A version of archery golf perhaps.

[Kuru]

Do we really have control ? Of course we do. You need to be taught the right tools to control yourself though. I really belive something like eye movement desensitising response can help. If you can control your thoughts you can control anything

[CMB50]

Was coaching a guy at our club who was complaiing of inconsistant groups and was ripping his release off I said "The difference between him, myself and Jim Park is how well we use our release aids. Clint is the master. Neither Jim or Clint rip it off, that is the key to shooting well". He shot and ripped it off "I just want to work on my grip first, I'll get there". No amount of nagging from me would get him to squeeze the release, because shooting them in the middle was more important (which he wasn't doing)

Hard one to teach.

Come on, Occasionally i was hitting the middle! :roll:

I have been very tempted to coach people by enforcing a "If you punch you give me 5 pushups" rule. What worked great when I coached grid iron was if you did something wrong one of the coaches would level you. Made you try harder.


Would love to see you try either of these!! :D

[2Dogs]

:rofl: ........Gareth.........WTF

[Marcus]

Come on, Occasionally i was hitting the middle!
Not everything is about you, you egomaniac! :lol:

[Freeman]

control...... two of the most important things are...release, squeezing the shot and being consistant... aiming, as compounders we have everything working for us...such as, a wall to pull against and different let off option.

Squeezing the shots is most important...you could be the most stable person when aiming but it does not mean **** if your punching the crap out of your release cause the shots will not be consistant.

The main thing I work on is aiming, trying to get the most out of my bow...if this mean I have to build a special set up..so be it, but for me everything else works ok and if I can aim steadier, then my scores will go up high and its easier to see tuning problems.

So I think aiming and squeezing are the things to work on, everything else will fall into place once these two are worked out.

[James Park]

I was talking to Leigh Cornish after the FITA at Sherbrooke yesterday:
Both of us found (as we usually do) that each time we used the release device correctly we shot a ten, and that when we did not use it properly we might have had a ten or a wild one.
We have both know this for a long time.
Hence, if we know this to be the case, and we know how to use the release device properly and can do so, why do we not simply do it every shot? I am sure our scores would be higher if we did so.

[Peter King]

We had the same conversation, including
. If we could stop our conscious getting in the way of the subconscious, which knows very well what to do, the good releases would happen
. we need to be motivated to treat each shot seriously, ie enough to let down if required. Hard when you get tired.
. we tried Fear and Greed (talked about stockmarkets too), with fear of failure not doing the trick. I tried fear/greed by threatening to deny myself a glass of shiraz at night if I shot nines at 30m. It worked for a while until my subconscious sorted out that I was bluffing!

I still think this is the big hurdle to better scores.

[Marcus]

It worked for a while until my subconscious sorted out that I was bluffing!

:rofl:

[Clare Barnes]

I tried fear/greed by threatening to deny myself a glass of shiraz at night if I shot nines at 30m. It worked for a while until my subconscious sorted out that I was bluffing!

Perhaps if you had said you really would do it .... even a 2 year old soon works out that threats are not often carried out, so the offence is worth repeating! :o :D

[Peter King]

Turn it up Clare! It's only archery!

[Flex]

Peter King wrote:
I tried fear/greed by threatening to deny myself a glass of shiraz at night if I shot nines at 30m. It worked for a while until my subconscious sorted out that I was bluffing!


I think it worked till I said" I don't drink".Your reply too me was "I can drink for your 10's" Then Leigh wanted too share my 10's and it was all
over :wink:

[Peter King]

Gee thanks Flex..now you have revealed my weakening resolve! Clare will start on that 2 year old lecture again. I thought there was merit in the scheme though...like trading unused tax credits.

[Flame]

Gee thanks Flex..now you have revealed my weakening resolve! Clare will start on that 2 year old lecture again. I thought there was merit in the scheme though...like trading unused tax credits.

Since you were at Sherbrooke you could have traded carbon credits :D

[Clare Barnes]

Clare will start on that 2 year old lecture again.

It wasn't meant in a derogatory sense at all Peter! :o Let's face it, you are at least as good as any 2 year old as you worked out it was only a threat so proceeded to shoot 9s!! :lol: :lol:

Are you coming over to Adelaide for the State Target in March by the way? :D

[Flex]

[/quote]Peter King Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee thanks Flex..now you have revealed my weakening resolve! Clare will start on that 2 year old lecture again. I thought there was merit in the scheme though...like trading unused tax credits


Well I do remember you meantioning something about punishment for
bad shoots ect :)

[SteveFSA]

Hence, if we know this to be the case, and we know how to use the release device properly and can do so, why do we not simply do it every shot? I am sure our scores would be higher if we did so.

Jim, that's why I think the game is more than 90% mental when you get to your skill level.

From a previous thread, Marcus placed the mental part of the game at around 33% but I believe once your form is good, your equipment is tuned, arrows matched, ect, then it's nearly all mental. What else can explain the 8's and 9's but mostly 10's?

[Marcus]

Yes, but you are assuming your form and equipment is perfect? If it isn't your mental side can not be 100% on. ;) That is why top shooters know their gear backwards and go beyond the nomral means to super tune etc.

[Peter King]

Clare wrote


It wasn't meant in a derogatory sense at all Peter! Let's face it, you are at least as good as any 2 year old as you worked out it was only a threat so proceeded to shoot 9s!!

Are you coming over to Adelaide for the State Target in March by the way?
:lol: yep..a good one, hit the spot, ricochet still audible. :lol:
I should learn from my grand-daughter who is LESS than 2 and has that one worked out! Would love to get back to SA for the State but we (Chewton) have a country tournament that day. I have the Max Manuel in mind again and I guess the Indoor.

[James Park]

My psychologist wife just mentioned: "practice makes permanent" rather than " practice makes perfect". This seems to me to be a useful insight.

[Marcus]

My psychologist wife just mentioned: "practice makes permanent" rather than " practice makes perfect". This seems to me to be a useful insight.
Well put, I like it.

[Ozzy]

My psychologist wife just mentioned: "practice makes permanent" rather than " practice makes perfect". This seems to me to be a useful insight.

A good one :wink:
Stresses the importance of not practicing faults in our form for too long,eh? :-?

[robbo]

My kids had an athletics coach for a short while.

One of his favorite sayings was, Practice makes Permanent.

He also said practice makes perfect, but only if you practice perfectly.

[hmz91]

Hi

I am new on archery-forum so excuses me if I repeat things already said!!!
also sorry for my bad written english!!!


My opinion on J Park first question is no
we do not have direct control

but we can practice to get more conscius control


I remember a story:
I was looking of an initiation make for fire arms

the purpose was: tring to get new adept to precision shooting
they where hiring young people, 8 y o to 15 yo

and they where tring to learn them the made a x at 3 meters to a quite big target ( 2cm 10 ) with a pressure air carabine

I did spoke with the man:
he told me look there are two young people here who want to try:
one little boy and one little girl both 10 year old
he told: I bet you that the girl with made better than the boy

they explaind to both:
just hold the rifle aim and sloooowly very slowly press to fire
the aiming was on a sand packet so very easy to be stable

the girl made good and the boy not so good


the man explain me that he often remarked that he does not clearly understand why.


Also he said other intersting things:
when you begin an accuracy sport, begin with easy target up to made easy ten, because if the person continue and develop good abilities he always will return to the infant age ( learning time ) when he will be under a big amount of stress
this wil have chance to make him or her a winner if he begun with ten tens tens.


My opinion is that it is the better way to increase control!!!, all the others have capabilities to increase form but the departure level is not the same.


all the best to you
philippe



philippe

[Ronny]

For shooting i like to be out of control a little.It seems the more i try to hit the center the more tense i get. I think the key is to flow and take the out come what ever it is. Read Zen and then think about control. Should feel like snow slipping off a branch.The more you think the more you struggle. Out of control is my pick but you have to believe in your shooting for it to work. Cheer Cheer :beer_drink:

[Harald]

Lenny Bassham is talking bout the balance between three circles.
The conscious mind, the subconscious and your self image. If you are to conscious you shoot bad. Is your subconsiousness (neuron programming by training) not sufficient your form is bad If your self image is to high you re overconfident and fail, if too low you will stopp yourslf from shooting great if it's not like you to do it. etz.

Keep balance find out which circle is small and increase it. For instance:
not confident: shoot closer range to get used to hittin tens. :bday:

[clever_guy]

Control is an illusion, no one in life has true control over any event. Perception allows us to convince ourselves of a false control over physical reality, or attempt force the desires of our inner world over the construct of the physical world.

There is a dichotomy in belief, where a person can to an extent control events in the the physical world, while at the same time they have to accept that events are at the same time to an extend beyond their control. If you give yourself over completely to self-belief you will never have absolute success, because you do not have omnipotent control of events. At the same time without force of will and action you will never influence events in your flavor.

I think a lot of the problems archers have with performance anxiety come directly from unrealistic beliefs and a lack of pragmatic realization when shooting. They build a "belief reality" that exceeds what they can achieve in the actual shooting situation, then their confidence is continually chipped away as they do not meet their own unrealistic expectations - and of course this has a snowball effect on their shooting.

This is why I think the best mental frame of reference is to always try to only concern yourself with the arrow you are currently shooting. After the shot has been conducted it should be forgotten, and you should never concern yourself with future arrows - because you will take care of those in the future, when they become the current arrow. In short, there is no reason that you should not believe that you can shoot your current arrow as one great shot into the 10 (x) ring - but there is every reason to believe that you will not be able to do it 144 times - so adjust your frame of reference to the more positive likely outcome.

-CG