ABA Rule Change

[enseth]

The management meeting of the ABA in December passed a change to existing rules.

Binoculars may now be used to view the target after the first arrow is shot.

[Kuru]

Good move

[bowhunter]

I dont know how this is a good move, when out hunting (which most of the ABA rounds are based on) you dont get a chance to use your Bino's after your first shot.

[Marcus]

Yeah, and the animal does sit there with scoring rings on him either.

The ABA round is a competitive round, and thus it is reasonable to allow bino use.

Otherwise people will just shoot 3DAAA Paper round which allows for binos before and after the shot.

[Randall Wellings]

when out hunting (which most of the ABA rounds are based on) you dont get a chance to use your Bino's after your first shot.

True...but most the time when 'out hunting'...you wouldn't want to use the second or third arrow either (ABA 3 arrow round):o...the animal

[Robert43]

Both Marcus and Randalls comments are true but I think its good move lets face it when you go hunting you generally only get 1 shoot . I dont like the fact that you can carry little cards with the zones on them Robert

[enseth]

double post

[enseth]

I dont like the fact that you can carry little cards with the zones on them Robert

As far as ABA goes I think this is pretty much a Wagga phenomenon.

[rinaldo]

If you are going to compare target shooting to hunting then why not use the binos before you shoot? No point shooting at something that your not 100% sure of where to hit.

[Randall Wellings]

No point shooting at something that your not 100% sure of where to hit.

Rin..were talking ABA here...who doesn't know where to aim...even on the new ones :o

Not to hard to see the score zones...maybe the arrow location..but definately not the zone :wink:

cheers

[2Dogs]

I'm with Rin.

Of all the bowhunters I've seen hunt out here, they all had a good pair of binos.

And guess what!......they glassed the animal before they shot it.

However these were Bowhunters who could actually hit what they were aiming at :wink:

[Marcus]

I'm with rin and 2Dogs. Glassing afterwards is a waste of time. I only shoot 1 arrow ABA rounds (even if everyone else is shoot 3 arrows) and always check first. Of course I do not compete at ABA 2 Day shoots, just club stuff.
If I was going to take a shot at something I would check it first, if there is not enough time to do that there is not enough time to take the shot.

[robbo]

Not to hard to see the score zones...maybe the arrow location..but definately not the zone :wink:

cheers

I have to agree, even on the new targets, after you shoot them a couple of times, the zones are not hard to see.

The same goes for 3D targets

[Jacob Goodwin]

I am in complete agreement with Rin, 2dogs and Marcus. There is little, if any, value in being able to glass a target after the arrow has been shot.

This new rule seems typical of the ABA's approach to managing its shooting format..a day late and a dollar short!

[enseth]

I see that the ABA hatchet men are crawling out from under their rocks again. Ahh well never mind.

Personally I can't see the need to glass an ABA target before you shoot. As said by Robbo & Randall, the zones aren't that hard to see, even with the new targets. Using binos before you shoot is just a bloody waste of time. the vast majority of ABA shooters know their targets. They don't need to look at them before hand to see the score zone. What other reason would you want to glass the target to before you shoot? Certainly not to admire the art work!

I believe one of the reasons it was decided to not let people use binos before the shot was to eliminate the possibility of competitors using them to guage distance, which is the same reason 3DAAA doesn't allow 10x bino's. So I guess 3DAAA mangement must be judged as being "a day late and dollar short" as well! (Honestly Jacob, you do dribble some **** when it comes to ABA. You appear to have totally lost your objectivity).

I can however see the benifit of allowing binos after first shot. More than once I have put a lovely group low on the butt of a group five target because I couldn't see where my arrows were going. Now hopefully that won't happen.

[rinaldo]

Quote:
No point shooting at something that your not 100% sure of where to hit.


Rin..were talking ABA here...who doesn't know where to aim...even on the new ones

Not to hard to see the score zones...maybe the arrow location..but definately not the zone


:D At our club the stencils are so old that you need binos just to tell what sort of animal it is. :lol: As I get old and crusty I tend to need the Binos more often :oops: Youth is wasted on the young!!!

[Marcus]

Guess it depends on what kind of shooter you are enseth.

I can see the scoring zone on most of the 3D targets, especially the old ones. I still glass it though. Why? Because I'm not trying to hit something the size of a dinner plate at 40m, I'm looking for a aiming mark to hit instead, something I can lock in on. Looking for a distinct mark that I can hit the centre of and make sure I am well within the scoring zone.

Example. Tugger the Standing Bear 3D target. I know exactly where the 10 ring is (level with the neds in his arm) however I will still look before each shot.
Marked field I glass the target most of the time too. Can be helpful to see impact holes that are high and try to figure out why everyone got done in by that face.

When I shoot ABA I don't do it to practise hunting, I do it to shoot 400 (come close, but only shoot it once a year). There is a reason most of the top field shooters don't shoot the ABA round, this is one of them.

However one step at a time, this is a positive move.

[Flame]

Can't wait to give Tugger one in the neds :D

[robbo]

:D At our club the stencils are so old that you need binos just to tell what sort of animal it is. :lol: As I get old and crusty I tend to need the Binos more often :oops: Youth is wasted on the young!!!

I've seen your stencils, they are getting a bit faded. :D

But I think stencils are only good for practice though.


However one step at a time, this is a positive move.

That's the best way to look at it.


Some may disagree, but any improvement however small it may seem to some, should be seen as a positive move.

[Jacob Goodwin]

So I guess 3DAAA mangement must be judged as being "a day late and dollar short" as well!

Enseth,

Actually 3DAAA's format management is not "a day late" because they were allowing binos BEFORE the ABA. Further, it's format management is not "a dollar short" because it offers archers a more valuable option (bino use prior to shooting).

The trick to starting a trend is recognising a need and implementing a solution within a reasonable timeframe. In this case, ABA is the "johnny come lately". Unfortunately, this status is the result of the organisation's typical behaviour.

(Honestly Jacob, you do dribble some sh*t when it comes to ABA. You appear to have totally lost your objectivity)

While I have been more critical of the ABA as of late, my criticism is quite accurate and relevant to what is happening in the sports of Australian bowhunting and field archery, rather than "dribbled sh*t" as you have suggested.

With respect to your second point, I no longer have a pretense of objectivity toward the ABA. Quite subjectively, I assert that the organisation, as it is currently led and administered, is doing bowhunting and field archery more harm than good.

My basis for this subjective viewpoint are the following objective facts:

1. The organisation has been led by the same people for over a decade with the only notable result being a decrease in the number of affiliated clubs.

2. Any attempts by "ordinary" members to convince the organisation to address any issues or concerns with the way the organisation is being run has been met with either outright disdain and hostility (Please see the Archery Action issue containing the thinly veiled threat of legal action against anyone who expresses concern about the organisation's insurance coverage) or bureacratic deflection (Please see the Archery Action issue containing the ABA's organisation structure and the advisement that any issues be dealt with 'through the proper channels').

3. As a result of 1 and 2, the organisation has developed no new initiatives or programs to address the issues facing field archery and bowhunting in Australia, particularly the threat from greenies and others.

4. Any changes that have been implemented have typically come too late and have been implemented less effectively than other organisations.

Hopefully Enseth, this will serve as sufficient "dribbled sh*t" for you.

[rinaldo]

The changes are a step in the right direction :P , but what is the reasoning behind not glassing first?

[Marcus]

The changes are a step in the right direction :P , but what is the reasoning behind not glassing first?
I belive the original idea with not glassing is
Arrow 1: Put your 2117 over the back of the animal. Warning shot.
Arrow 2: Hit the animal in the leg when it's watching the just missed arrow. This stops it getting away.
Arow 3: Now you are sighted in, make the killing shot.

[2Dogs]

:rofl: ..I laughed so hard I just dribbled.....no! splattered **** everywhere

[Robert43]

Well said Marcus

[rinaldo]

Well said Marcus haven't laughed that hard in quite a while :D :D :D

[enseth]

The changes are a step in the right direction , but what is the reasoning behind not glassing first?
As I said in my previous post. I beleive the rationale was to stop competitors using binos to guage distance.

Jacob,
I have yet to see an organization on this planet that has perfect administration. The ABA is far from perfect and the criticisms in your previous post may well have some validity.

The fact that the ABA national executive made this rule change, has seen by many, including myself, as a positive. You, unfortunately, used this news as yet another opportunity of taking a swipe at the ABA. I quote

[rinaldo]

As I said in my previous post. I beleive the rationale was to stop competitors using binos to guage distance.


Most archers I shoot with regardless of whether they are FITA, 3DAAA or ABA are honest people. So why punish 99% of people when its a very small minority this rule is meant to deter. Regardless its a step in the right direction.IMO 8)

[Randall Wellings]

So why punish 99% of people when its a very small minority this rule is meant to deter

one reason why it's not there anymore :lol: :wink:

Most archers I shoot with regardless of whether they are FITA, 3DAAA or ABA are honest people.

Maybe true...or just maybe your not aware of their cheating...taking any advantage outside the rules...is still cheating :o It's surprising what some people will do to secure a victory...

Yes, we do consider them cheats, but these people just don't give a rat's arse.

cheers

[stodrette]

If an archer is going to spend the time, working with the binos to learn how to range with them, they could better spend that time just working on yardage estimation.

The IBO went to the 8X bino rule because of this problem. At the entry level, the honest archer just figured that it was a conspiracy cooked up with bino manufacturers to sell more binos.....

No matter where you live it is funny how people always want to take the easy way out :roll:

[2Dogs]

I don't care what anybody says....you can't gauge distances accruately with bino's.

Have you guys actually tried it?...+- 5m if your lucky. If your Binos have a "scale" on them....well that's different...and obviously illegal.

And I got the $2500 binos to test it.

[Jacob Goodwin]

[code]You, unfortunately, used this news as yet another opportunity of taking a swipe at the ABA. I quote

[Marcus]

um given that an adult pig is going to be about the same size as another adult pig (and you could tell if t's a big one based on it's background) surely when hunting you would look at it through the bines to try and guage it's size in relation to it's background to help with range estimation.

Using guaging methods is NOT cheating, it's smart.

[enseth]

Marcus, I think what the "powers that be" are concerned about is using binos as a type of range finding device.

I am not exactly sure how you do it, and I could never be bothered in working it out, but its got something to do with scaling off the focus ring so you it gives you an idea on distance. I'm not sure how well it works. I guess it must give a reasonable indication or there wouldn't be the concern. As I understnd it, this is why 3DAAA only allows 8x, because scaling off of the focal length is much more difficult than 10x. I am sure that others would have a better idea on how this all works and perhaps can explain the process more accurately.

Anyway, I don

[BBS]

Jacob are you a member of ABA?

I think the bino rule is a good one.

Now we need to allow target cards, as they are only an advantage to new members as I see it. If anyone can see a reason for not allowing target cards then please say so.

The arguments that when hunting you don't get to look first is a crock for 2 reasons
1. in most of my hunting (rabbits and hog deer) there is usually time to use range finder/bino's
2. if the 20 zone was in the ideal kill zone then ok no looking but as the 20 in most instances is not the ideal kill zone and so much emphasis is on score - it's target archery.

[Jacob Goodwin]

BBS,

I agree with your analysis of the no bino rule, particularly in respect of the fact that the kill zones on most 2d and 3d targets are not "true" to the animals represented. This turns most field archery into target archery, rather than a representation of hunting.

As for my ABA membership, I have been an ABA member for the past 4 years. However, I am quite conflicted about joining for 2004 and have not sent my membership dues as of yet. As my club (Manly Warringah Field Archers) has recently disaffiliated with the ABA, I am not required to join the ABA in order to remain a member of the club. Previously the decision to remain a member of ABA was essentially out of my hands. Now, I have to look at whether such membership is good value for money.

I do want to support an organisation that is pro-hunting/pro-archery and I do care about the ABA's future. But, and it's a big "but", any financial support I give the organisation (ie, my membership dues) implies support for the National Executive's current commercial and operational practices, which I do not support or believe in.

Thus, the dilemma... I make my final decision this month.

[Randall Wellings]

Thus, the dilemma... I make my final decision this month.

Please...please...please...DON"T GO!!!..if you leave you will merely become one of the other mud slingers...who don't have the right to critisise....but choose to do so anyway.
As an ABA member, you do have that right and even I accept your opinion..as flawed as it sometimes may appear in my opinion :wink: .

The ABA is your Association, as much as mine..if you don't like the way things are being handled....do something about it....it starts at Club..then Branch..... so pull your finger out instead of beating the keyboard with it.

You, as with any other member, have a lot to contribute..change the context to "what can I do?" instead of "what haven't they done?" and i'm sure you will reap rewards.

As a point of interest...the executive HAS changed in the past 10 years and I can work with them...and really..that's saying something :lol:
As far as being involved with the Government with relation to hunting..I'm sure your source of information...isn't quite correct...there is a lot of "behind the scene' happenings.

sorry if I missed any spellin mistacks... :wink:
cheers

[rinaldo]

The ABA is your Association, as much as mine..if you don't like the way things are being handled....do something about it....it starts at Club..then Branch..... so pull your finger out instead of beating the keyboard with it.

If you are an independant member (ie: no club) who is your first port of call if you have any issues or concerns?

[Randall Wellings]

You always have the Branch Controller... :o

cheers

[Clare Barnes]

You always have the Branch Controller... :o

cheers

Why do I think of Thomas the Tank Engine every time ........? :-? :roll: :D

[Randall Wellings]

Why do I think of Thomas the Tank Engine every time

dunno Clare..wasn't he a poof :lol:

cheers

[Jacob Goodwin]

The ABA is your Association, as much as mine..if you don't like the way things are being handled....do something about it....it starts at Club..then Branch..... so pull your finger out instead of beating the keyboard with it.

Randall,

I can appreciate your perspective on this. You have made a good point about "sticking around" to drive change in the ABA. Also, I agree that there is always the hope that one member can change any organisation, if he or she is sufficiently driven. But stuck in my mind is notion that my money (and time) would be better spent elsewhere. To be honest, part of me feels that the money that I would normally give the ABA could be better used by the SSAA or Safari Club International's Australian chapter (or the like) to ensure the survival of hunting and shooting rights.

As far as being involved with the Government with relation to hunting..I'm sure your source of information...isn't quite correct...there is a lot of "behind the scene' happenings.

I am quite skeptical that there are any "behind the scenes" activities being carried out by the ABA. If there are any such activities, then the ABA is failing miserably. The ABA's never ending mantra when MWFA was considering leaving the association was, "You can't leave us, because no one else has our ability to lobby government. The ABA has the highest level contacts in state and federal government and we're fighting with politicians for you." Blah Blah Blah.

My rebuttal to this assertion is the existence of three situations which, if the ABA was doing its job, politically speaking, would not have occurred:

1. Tasmania- Currently, bowhunting is banned in Tasmania. This despite the presence of plenty of huntable game and a strong hunting fraternity. The greenies were effective in getting this ban implemented and where was the ABA? They missed the boat! I can't imagine this situation being effectively reversed without SUBSTANTIAL effort, that is beyond the current leadership. Frankly, this should not have happened in the first place

2. In late Feb, the various state police commissioners are meeting to discuss, among other things, the issue of whether or not hunting with a compound bow should be regulated or prohibited entirely. There is also speculation that the issue of whether permitting should be required for all compound bow use is to be considered at this meeting. Both of these issues are nonsense and hopefully will be dismissed after reasonable analysis, as it has been in the past when this issue gets raised (ie. after 1996 and Port Arthur). However, if the ABA was doing its job, and maintaining strong and current relationships with the various police commissions and relevant bureaucracies, this issue would have NEVER come up...AT ALL!! By comparison, I look at the good work of the SSAA in respect of the recent pistol regulations that were implemented after the prick in Victoria shot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend. Yes, there are increased restrictions but the SSAA did a lot of work to prevent them from getting out of hand.

3. The ABA currently has no professional lobbyist working for bowhunting in Canberra or other state capitals. Every other major shooting /hunting /sporting association has such people engaged to ensure the protection of their constituents. I'm sure the ABA will argue that cost is a factor, but given that it does not pay any of it administrative staff and yet has considerable financial assets, where does the money go? I can think of no better way to spend annual revenues generated from our membership fees than on a lobbyist who can get us "on the inside".

Unfortunately,Randall, my "sources" (note: more than one) in respect of the ABA's profile are VERY accurate. One of these individuals is quite heavily involved with the NSW Government and some of its recent initiatives in respect of feral game hunting (NSW Game Council). Another is a federal Government bureaucrat who works closely with the Police Ministers Commission. The third is a professional lobbyist who works for the financial services industry, but also has an interest in sport shooting (mostly rifle hunting). All of them have advised that the ABA is "not even on the radar of the key decision makers in government". That's not being "behind" the scenes...that's being "out" of the scene!

[Randall Wellings]

My point in its entirety...with this wealth of information, your obvious passion for the sport (Bowhunting) and a desire to implement change...why aren't you taking this to your Branch Controller. If you in the past and have had no satisfaction there, then discuss your concerns with the Bowhunting V.P. or even Blue Hines the President.

As I said...it is your association...stand back and criticise if you will, that's your right or become proactive as I have, there is so much more to be gained and it really is so much more enjoyable. You may be surprised what an individual is capable of achieving with the right approach and attitude. :wink: Both help :lol:

Cheers

[Bruce]

Jacob, I agree with most of what you say but must strongly object to your staements regarding tasmania.
ABA submitted many submissions to the tasmanian government regarding the right to bowhunt .
One of the members from our Bowhunter Defence comittee here in Victoria , Mr Denniss La Varrenne , spent many hours writing submissions to the government in tasmania , along with a representative from that state Mr Gary Courtney-Bourne . Also Dr Ashby provided some material for these submissions , As far as I am aware, bowhunting hasn't been allowed in tasmania for deer species , in my lifetime and to say that ABA hasn't dopne enough is a bit rich . There are only a handful of members in Tasmania , most of the archers in Tasmania are Target archers , As branch controller in Victoria I am responsible for the members in Tasmania , but I have never recieved an enquiry from anybody in Tasmania , other than Gary Courtney Bourne.

Please remember that ABA is only run by volunteers not paid people

[robbo]

My point in its entirety...with this wealth of information, your obvious passion for the sport (Bowhunting) and a desire to implement change...why aren't you taking this to your Branch Controller. If you in the past and have had no satisfaction there, then discuss your concerns with the Bowhunting V.P. or even Blue Hines the President.


I would go one better, with your passion and knowledge, you should try for branch controller.

[robbo]

On the Tasmanian issue, Tasmania has the strongest green/enviromentalist movement in Austalia. and these will stop at nothing to get what they want, which is no trees damaged, no hunting and no people even walking in the bush.

[2Dogs]

Oh God no!.....Randall as Zone Controller :o

He wouldn't be able to develop a consistant anchor anymore cause his head would be so FAT :D

[Randall Wellings]

2dogs you f*** wit...he ment for Jacob to take up the roll.

It is an unpaid position though and a very thankless one at that. :cry:

Furthermore, say goodbye to any leasure time, family time or that which would normally be your shooting time...Oh!! and forget about hunting...that's only for the select few who manage to hide. :roll:

I think Robbo, that yours is a very good suggestion :wink:

cheers