to shoot from the valley or not

[Juggs]

when at full draw should i be pulling into the wall or trying to let it float in the valley
i have a twin cam mt sport that has next to no valley at all but i think i ay be pulling to hard before release any recommendations or preferences

stevej

[James Park]

I think it depends very much on the bow's force-draw curve. The answer could be that you should shoot from the valley or that you should shoot from the wall, depending on what happens to the nocking point at full draw and as you pull into the wall.
For example, I had one bow (a Super Star) that shot like a dog if I pulled it into the wall, but shot passably well from the valley. The problem was that the nocking point had vertical travel when pulled past the valley.
Wheel (or cam) timing also affects it, and in this area you do need to be especially carefull with dual wheel or cam bows (the single cam bows I have tested have not had this potential difficulty).

[2Dogs]

Basically I found that if you creep tune the two cam bows, you can set them up so that you shoot off the wall.

Learning about creep tuning was the one thing that made my scores go through the roof with a twin cam.

It doesn't work on a single cam

Most of the top shots I've chatted to on the net around the world creep tune their two wheelers and shoot from the wall

[James Park]

There can be problems, however.
The Hoyt Super Star that I had (and with which I managed to win quite a number of tournaments) was a real dog to tune. Despite much effort being put into wheel adjustment, I could not get rid of some remaining nocking point vertical movement near the wall. Aside from creep tuning, I also put substantial effort into measuring the nocking point movement at full draw and making very small wheel position adjustments to try to get rid of it. While I was able to minimise it, I could not get rid of it completely - there was simply some irregularily in the mechanicals that I could not remove by wheel adjustments.
Consequently, for that bow, it was essential that I shot it from the middle of the valley as otherwise I got substantial height variation on the target.
In the end I could stand it no longer and I traded it in on another bow.
I have very carefully measured both my current single cam bows and their nocking points have virtually zero vertical nocking point movement through the valley and well into the wall (sufficiently small that I cannot measure it), so I am able to either shoot them from the valley or from hard into the wall without any height variations.

[Marcus]

what wheels did you have on the Super Star Jim?

[2Dogs]

I do have a question for you Hoyt shooters.

How do the 2002 Command Cam +'s compare to the 2000-2001 command cam in the back wall.

The CC+ does feel a little spongy.

Clint took off the CC+ and put on the Old wheels because he said they feel terrible. He says the old wheels have a very solid wall.

What do you think Marcus?, I didn't realise till you posted that picture on the Archerytalk site that you were using a 2001 Ultratec with CC wheels.

Oh and about Jims book, can I download it rather then wait for a CD?

[James Park]

It was a Super Star Carbon Plus with Energy Wheels (1994 Hoyt catalogue). It cost a considerable fortune, and was the most difficult bow to tune that I have ever owned. Despite getting me some good scores, I was totally delighted to get rid of it.

On the other hand, the bow I had prior to that one was a delight. It was a Hoyt Super Slam Medalion with Energy Wheels (1992 Hoyt catalogue). It was an extremely easy bow to tune, had straight nocking point travel, and I used it to shoot some really nice scores. Regretably I traded it in on the Super Star and my life got complicated !! I now wish I had kept the Super Slam.

[2Dogs]

Jim,

How do you test for straight nock travel

[Marcus]

Well Erika has the CC+ and I have the CC's and I think the CC's are a nicer wheel. Smoother draw curve. However I feel that the draw stop is as solid on both. You will find that the CC+ will shoot up in poundage faster if you creep with them. The CC's are one of the nicest wheels I've drawn, however neither Erika's or Lukes are spoungy at the back. You should check your timing. Roger was complaining of the same with his CC's and I checked his timing for him and it was a little out. Use the draw stop module as a guide to compare.

If you want I can email you the book. I didn't want to host it because it's expensive for me to upload. Do you have broadband?

Jim
That's a suprize, I did you ever tiller tune the Super Star? It was just after my time so I don't know the bow, hwoever Energy wheels are awesome and yes you did need to shoot them from the valley anyway. The days before draw stops! I shot them on my Fire Flight and Super Slam with great success shooting from the valley (most of my PB's were shot with that wheel).

[James Park]

Paul,
I made a jig to test it.
On my garage wall I mounted two large diameter bolts. I use these to solidly fix the riser in position. Then I get an old bow string and loop it around the bow string at the nocking point and use it to draw the bow. Between the bow string and the wall I have a piece of paper. I then get my wife to hold a pen next to the nocking point as I draw the bow slowly. From this I can plot the movement of the nocking point vertically as the bow is drawn all the way from the bracing height back into the wall. It gets a little complex around the valley because of the rapid change in force required, but I have found it to work really well.
With the single cam bows I found that the nocking point just came back in a dead straight line. for the two wheel (or cam) bows you can get deviations from a straight line if the wheel timing is not correct, but from the deviation direction you can quite easily see which cable to adjust to get it correct. On most bows I have tried it has been reasonably easy.
After that, I test the bows using the creep test to see if they shoot the same height with different full draw positions.

Leigh Cornish also made a jig to test it. His jig works the same as mine but is a bit more elegant. He also bolts the riser down so it cannot move, but he has a nice pully system so that he can simultaneously draw the bow and plot the nocking point position without the need for an assistant.

I also made a jig to test my recurve bow, but found the test not to be meaningfull.

[2Dogs]

Yes I have broadband.

I'd rather you emailed it then posted it.

I got a picture of the new solution2.5 release that carter is selling. I tried playing around with posting it onto a web site.....but no go.

Do you want a copy to post for people to look at?

I'm pretty sure the CC+'s are timed right. I'm not sure I would describe them as spongy??? just not as tight as some other bows (ie Merlin). I'm curious to feel what CLint was complaining about.

[James Park]

Marcus,
I tried just about everything with the Super Star. I think I was spoilt by the ease of getting the Super Slam to perform. In the end I shot recurve for two years in frustration (and to get rid of some tendonitis). You would be pleased to know that I used a Hoyt Avalon, which was just about the nicest recurve bow I have ever shot.

[2Dogs]

Hmmmm interesting Jim.

I use a similar setup with a Boat winch to pull my bow mounted vertically. So I can step it with the rachet.

If I turn that rig around horizontally I can get the same setup as you.

How do you get the co-operation of your family?????? :D My Mrsjust stares blankly at me when I ask for assistance and walks off..............................time to trade her in I think :P

[Marcus]

Paul, you can post the Carter image online by going to http://www.archery-forum.com/4sale.lasso
Then you copy and paste the image URL it suppies on the following page between the img tags.
BTW I have emailed you the file. Might take some time to get there though.

Yep, sometimes you get a bow, and it's perfect but the damn thing just doesn't shoot right. My Hoyt Spectra was like that, so was the Jennings my dad had that we all tried last year. The Super Slam is a great bow. A barebow shooter has my old one now and he loves it. 10 years old and still rocking. One of the first 2 in the country too!

Paul, I feel your pain, did my wife grumble when I asked her to measure me up for Accurate sights. Trade her in on a set of X10's and a 3D bow! :) :lol: :D

[2Dogs]

Marcus,

So after I go to the image centre and click on browse and point to where the picture is residing......what do I do after that???

[Marcus]

hit submit
The image is uploaded and then displayed on the following page with a URL below it. It also changes the name of the image. Copy and paste the whole URL shown on the next page below the image.

[mike]

Paul, I feel your pain, did my wife grumble when I asked her to measure me up for Accurate sights. Trade her in on a set of X10's and a 3D bow!

Marcus, Done!!! Good Deal!!! Where will the exchange be???




(my girlfriend told me to write this...)

[James Park]

Paul,
Your question on how to get your missus helping with your archery: I think Valerie's (my wife's) patience is wearing thin. The story goes as follows:
In Accurate Sights I need to have a reasonably accurate measure of the peep-arrow distance. So, I brought my nice Quantum inside to make the measurement (it was too cold for her in the garage). Arrow on the string, and pulled it back with Valerie holding the tape measure.
Well, it seems the D-loop was getting a bit worn, and decided that it was the optimum time to break. The arrow (one of my best ACE's) hit the family room floor. Straight through the cork tiles, and straight through the particle board flooring. Much to my relief the ACE survived remarkably well. Much to Valerie's annoyance, the (previously beautiful) cork floor now has a rather nasty patch.
Oldest daughter's boyfriend (now ex-boyfriend) was in the room as well - he just about jumped out of his skin.
Analysing the shot (as one should, of course), I would say that it was definitely a surprise release, and the follow-through was probably perfect. From the shape of the cork tear (as distinct from paper tear) I would say that the bow tuning was pretty good. Since the fletches stayed attached I would conclude that my arrow construction was adequate.

[2Dogs]

:D :D :D

[ADAM RICHARDS]

I 2nd that, that was funny !! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[James Park]

I thought it was funny. However I think the ex-boyfriend did not!! The daughter was not amused either.
It does suggest an addition to the ten basic rules of archery: "whenever you shoot an arrow through your floor it is certain to be in the most visible part, and in an area impossible to cover with a mat".

[2Dogs]

Spouses and family members never see the funny side life threatening situations :lol:

A few years ago I was in the main bedroom drawing my Hoyt Defient SuperG so I could see myself in the mirror (the ones on the walls...floor...roof :wink: )

The Mrs came in and chucked a wobbly about me being in her room with all my crap.

As she left and I was still drawing the Bow, I heard a Cracking noise. I looked up and pulled my hand away from my face and BOOOM!

The whole bottom limb assembly sheared off at the riser and flew up clipping me in the face and imbedding the wheel into the plasterboard roof :P

Mrs comes racing into the room ( to assist her wounded husband no doubt) and the only thing she did was get up me for putting a hole in her roof.

It must be a genetic thing....put a ring on their finger and they develop an instant dislike for anything Archery :cry: :cry:

[2Dogs]

Oh and before you guys come on here and tell me about how you got your Mrs into archery so you can enjoy it together.........well we did that thing.

Rachel used to shoot, that's how we met.

But she beat me on one end of a Ladies clout round about 15 years ago.......and has never let me forget.

"Why do you have to keep messing around with your gear all the time" " Why do you have to buy another one of those, you've already got onet"....................and my favourite quote."I didn't need all that and I could still beat you"

Thus I took her bow away from her, and suggested she have babies :lol:

[Marcus]

I had a strange wife reaction last year. At my last rental house I has my Block target in the dining room and could get 15m down the hall way. I came home, glaced at the sight and shot my Carbon Tech. BAM!
Gave a better look at the sight, 40m.
Go down and there is a half inch hole in the concrete wall and paster and dust everywhere. Carbon was stuffed.
Anyone who knows my wife knows she doesn't tolerate screw ups (part of her Chinese side) so I carefully slink into the lounge room ready for a battering and told her.
Her response "that was stupid"
We patched it up when we moved and got all our bond back! :) The patch job was crap, fortunatly the house was made in 1930 so everything else looked crap too! :lol:

[Marcus]

What are you complaining about?
Last year I was saving up for a digital camera. Just got enough together when Erika's Stratus started causing problems. She shot a 1360 with this bow so it was time to get her some decent gear. So long digital camera, hello UltraTec and X10's for wife. She costs me a fortune in archery gear. And because she shoots well can justify it. :(

[James Park]

Bryce Lee has a good (not wife but girlfriend) tale: he was in her family's lounge room adjusting the draw length of his Quantum (after putting a new cable on it). Pulled his hand out from his face to check where the point of the arrow was, and wham. The X10 went straight through the plaster and the weatherboard, but fortunately not far enough to hit the WRX in the driveway. The X10 survived.

Marcel Vertegan had a similar "event". testing something in his lounge room and planted an ACE into the wall 1 cm above the leather lounge suite. Through the plaster and hit the bricks behind. The end splayed out and he could not pull it out. So he chopped it off, pushed the front bit into the wall cavity, patched the hole and painted it, all before his wife came home from shopping.

[mike]

I set up my target butt in the spare room a while ago but, thinking that the butt would stop arrows, failed to remove the framed Salvador Dali print on the opposite wall........


The butt worked really well and stopped the arrow....it didn't stop the point, result, hole in the print, glass everywhere and not enough time to cover it up before my girlfriend gets home. I suppose that if it hadn't been a birthday present it wouldn't have been such a big deal.... :oops:
Shooting inside was frowned upon for a while....but I was allowed to continue after carefully explaining how it was a freak accident and how nothing like this would ever happen again....


A few weeks later, had the butt on top of the ironing board, shooting away happily when the next arrow slipped down through the shoot-through rest just before I shot.

The arrow went straight through the top of the ironing board, ripping the cover and the mesh framework on the way through. It then continued straight in to the leg of the board. I think there are still carbon fibres in the carpet and on the walls because that arrow basically exploded.

It gave us an excuse not to do the ironing for a while though!

Other than that, I highly recommend shooting in the living room/kitchen/bathroom/ laundry etc. Its great for those form issues and keeps the whole household entertained. I still wonder how it would have gone if my girlfriend was not a shooter as well!



Oh, and a tip for all you budding house destroyers: If you are going to shoot, take a look at what is in the path of your stabiliser for your follow through before you shoot, I recently lost a really good beer glass that way...now that was a suprise release...

[dman]

me personally it has been a very long time since I have shot a two cam bow so what I do might not work for you as people have already said.

I shoot a mathews q2 with a staight line cam and i also shoot off the wall but I I have found that even on the mathews you have to be careful of how far into ther wall you go (mind you they don't leave you much room for error with there short valley's). but if you do over cook it you will pull the shot off due to the increased tension inducing torque.

so I guess if you just find the back wall and use it for a refferance it works best (for me anyway) :o