Indoor League

[Marcus]

Anyone interested in shooting in an Indoor league on either Tuesday or Friday nights?
Here's what I had in mind.
Over 8 weeks we run a handicap shoot. Handicap is calculated weekly. Round shot is 2 Fita indoor rounds.
End of 8 weeks we have placing depending on how many shoot.
If we have enough people then we can shoot teams.
The final week can be a shootoff too perhaps.

Any comments?

[Colin]

We are restarting our league on a friday night in about two weeks, we have 15 shooters and will be running it over 10 weeks. we used to shoot with a straight 300 less average = Handicap but have found that it does not work out too fair for the better shooters. How do you intend to run your handicap system?

[Marcus]

I've been trying to think of a fair system and was going to pick a high score. Say 293. Something that the top shooters will beat, but the bottom won't. I'ld then adjust their scores to account for this and average their handicap week by week.
Or I would base the handicap on last week's top shooter.
Not too sure yet, I have to draw up samples with possible outcomes and try to keep the results as close as possible. I want the top guys to get a chance.

Years ago I use to shoot against a barebow recurve shooter at our indoor. He would use the current credit card interest rate as his hndicap. It was pretty close every week, I was shooting about 289 at the time. He had 6 months away and when he came back I had improved to about 297 and the interest rates dropped from 22% to 18%. We stopped at that point, too hard for him. :)
Some weeks he would kick butt and my target would be 305 out of 300. :(
Where do you run your league? If you want to post the details here you may if you want to drum up more shooters. I wouldn't mind, I live in Ivanhoe, just down from you guys.

[Eberbachl]

I'd definitely be interested in shootning an indoor league Marcus, we used a handicap system for our club 3D for a while, run by Steve Chambers..... it was OK, but invariably it was the bottom shooters, who would shoot an above average round who would cream the top shooters.

I think it was less likely for the top shooters to shoot much above their average ,say 394/400 than a bottom shooter with an average of 250/400 to go and shoot a 275 for example. This meant that often a bottom shooter would beat the top guys by 50 or more points!

:D

[Colin]

The System That we are thinking of using at yarra valley is where everbody shoots against there own Average -
Joe Blogs - Average=290. Handicap=10. His Score 292. The Difference is +2 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =5
Fred Nurk - Average=250. Handicap=50. His Score 260. The Difference is +10 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =5
Tom Jones - Average=240. Handicap=60. His Score 250. The Difference is +10 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =6
Harry Potter - Average=280. Handicap=20. His Score 285. The Difference is +5 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =4

Tom Jones =6 ..1st
Joe Bloggs =5 ..2nd
Fred Nurk =5 ..2nd
Harry Potter =4 ..3rd

It seems to work?

[Marcus]

Well this is going to be the real challenge, working out a system that does not disadvantage the top shooters, but still gives the bottom guys a chance. I think by working the mean score as something that can be beaten you give people a chance. So if that score is say 290. If (A) shoots 275 in week one then the following week (A) gets a 15 point handicap. If (B) shoots a 293 then (B) get a -3 point handicap. Now if (A) shoots a 280 in week 2 his score is 295, so (B) would have to shoot a 298 to compete, but instead shoots a 291. The handicap is recalculated and in week 3 (A) gets a handicap of 12 poin handicap while (B) gets a -2 point handicap.

Make sense? Sound OK? I think this is how bowling works.

[Marcus]

Looks like we posted these around the same time.
Problem with that system that I see is that if you shoot less than average it may affect your score in a massive way. Also I would like to make it more of a personal competition where people look at what other people are shooting and feel some preasure. If I look over and Tom Jones is shooting 28's then I know I'm in trouble!
Otherwise it looks OK, sucks if you shoot 299 average though (only 1 point to play with)
In fact if your average is 1 you can not win because If you shoot 299 then you score 0 points. If you shoot 300 you score 1 point. While the system I'm thinking of you would have a -9 disadvantage but could still pull if off....maybe. Lesson one, don't shoot 299 till the final week :)

I doubt there is a perfect system :(

[Ian Taylor]

Marcus & Luke.

The idea of an indoor league is wonderful. Particularly if the regular, ie not top, archers have a chance.

The handicap system we used in yachting required 5 scores to begin then the best and worst are disgarded as you go along.

Not sure about the 300 and 299 folk. I dream of such scores. :rolleyes

[Eberbachl]

Hi Ian,

...so if you take the middle three scores out of the first five, what do you do with them then?...work out an average i guess, but then how do you come up with a fair handicap when you get an average...:)

You're shooting in the high 280's...290+ is just around the corner :)

[Marcus]

What I might do is grab the scores the five of us shot last weekend and use them as a basis on what I was foreseeing as the system. Will then run it by a few others and see what we get. I definitly want to make it so a average shooter can win, however I also don't want it impossible for a good shooter to.

Right now I also dream of 299-300. Erika on the oher hand is getting close. (just bragging now)

Yeah explain the yachting system some more.

[Eberbachl]

mmm 299-300 is gettable in IFAA indoor i think...but aust indoor or fita indoor, now thats where the real challenge starts :(

[Marcus]

yeah the Fita indoor kinda brings you back to reality very fast. The world record in compound BTW is 598 shot on the INNER TEN!!

That's just incredible!!

[Eberbachl]

mmm wow! i was looking at ifaa indoor scores tonight on the ifaa site....the first three i think (or four) pro places were 600, 120x !!!!!

[Marcus]

Yeah but the Fita one is on a 10 ring half the X size again.
The man Terry Ragsdale shot a perfect 1200 at Vegas in 1976 on Fita size indoor targets with a 4 wheel compound. That's the equivlent of the same but back when compound bow were pretty rough.
Bit depressing that we can't do it with our hi-tech gear huh?

[Eberbachl]

mmmm :( very depressing,that damn 290 is so elusive, let alone 300!!! 289 blows!

oh, well I'll get my 290+ tomorrow :D

...the Ultra-Tec is really starting to look good...any excuse to shoot better :rolleyes

HA HA HA HA ...go away 290..=..293;)

[Eberbachl]

Hey Marcus,

When do you think we should start the Indoor League on a Friday?

Did you decide on a handicap system yet?

[Marcus]

I'm sorta waiting till after the AGM to see who gets AV Tournament director. Don't want to arrange something without commitee approval afterall. ;)
After that if I go ahead I will start in middle of August or start of September.
I think my original plan of a handicap is the one I'll go with. If by half way through it is too lopsided I can change the rules if everyone agrees.
What I really need to do is build a database to track all the scores and sort the winner that way. :D yeah that would be cool :cool . I can get it to calculate the handicap and sort the placings. Then I could run different systems through it and see which one has the lowest difference in score at the end. I'm such a dork!

What do people think, my idea of a set score (293) and then your points needed to reach it averaged out over each week?
Or the one Yarra use (described by Colin below) where you shoot against your average?
I don't have a love affair with mine, so it doesn't worry me which. Or does someone have a better idea?

[Marcus]

Looking at it I am thinking that Colin's system is better than mine. Based on his examples my outcome would be

Nurk 303 1st
Jones 303 1st
Potter 298 3rd
Bloggs 295 4th

His system means that it seems a little more equal, while mine handicaps the good shooters far more than they should be.
It might average out more over time. Ian's idea with the take the middle three scores and average those is also good.

damn this whole maths thing! :confused

[Eberbachl]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Colin:

"The System That we are thinking of using at yarra valley is where everbody shoots against there own Average -
Joe Blogs - Average=290. Handicap=10. His Score 292. The Difference is +2 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =5
Fred Nurk - Average=250. Handicap=50. His Score 260. The Difference is +10 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =5
Tom Jones - Average=240. Handicap=60. His Score 250. The Difference is +10 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =6
Harry Potter - Average=280. Handicap=20. His Score 285. The Difference is +5 over average. Handicap Devided by Difference =4"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...Im having trouble working out your system Colin...it seems to me that Tom Jones scored six by dividing 60 by 10 and won the shoot.

If Tom didnt shoot as well as that and only shot 2 over his average for example that would be 60 divided by two, and he scores 30 points? He would win by a bigger margin despite having shot worse?

The same is true if he does the opposite...If Tom shoots a blinder and shoots 30 above average, lets say, 60 divied by 30 equals two, and he loses despite having shot really really well.

Does what I'm saying make sense...is this a flaw in the system, or am I just really crap at maths after 11.00pm?;)

The system they used to use when I was league bowling i think was that your handicap was worked out by taking an average of all your games and then adding sufficient handicap to give you the equivalent of 80% of 200. 300 was the perfect score, but a 200 average was really good, and very few bowlers had an average of over 200.

For example...a bowler with an average score of 150 would be given a handicap of 10.

Said bowler then bowls a 158, has his handicap added to 158, and ends up with a 168.

His new handicap would then be calculated by making a new average of all his games including the 158.

This system works really well in bowling when most averages are, say 130-160 out of 300, and the really good bowlers are just 180-200 average. This means of course that if you average over 160 you bowl on scratch and have no handicap...

I think the 80% of 200 would not work quite as well in archery where the top shooters might have an average of, say 290 out of 300.

...but would the same system work if you just made the handicap equal to closer to the perfect score, say 95% of 290?

If you did this it would mean that anyone shooting over about 275 would shoot from scratch and not have a handicap...you could change the figures to raise this level, but essentially i think it is a good system.

...dunno if this would work, but it's how I seem to remember they did it at my bowling league. I might be wrong about that too! It's been a while, my bowling ball has plenty of dust:D:D:D

Of course, the way I see it, any system used relies on all shooters to shoot pretty much close to their average to make things fair for all...

If you get a bottom shooter with an average of say 168 out of 300, that would give them a handicap of 107.5. That person has a really good night and shoots a 225...add the 107.5 handicap and that shooter ends up with a 332.5 out of 300!!!

I can't think of a system where others wont be disadvantaged by sandbaggers or just people who shoot so inconsistently that they regularly shoot above or below their average by 50 points or so:confused

[Colin]

I May of confuesd everybody. I have sent marcus a copy of the sheet, may be he can explain it better.

[Marcus]

Yeah that makes sence Luke. You can't have a handicap system based on the division of a score because the smaller number is best. Sounds like a golfing system actually where it would be useful.
I was hoping to base mine on the bowling system. Food for thought. Might be the way to go.

[Colin]

We found that shooters with an average of 290 never won because there was always a shooter with an average of say 240, shooting more tha 10 over.

With the system that we are looking at using this does no happen as you are shooting against your own handicap.


A 290 shooter would be shooting between about 285 - 295. he has a handicap of 10
if he shoots 295 he has shoot 50% of his handicap Over.

A 260 shooter would be shooting Between about 245 - 275. he has a handicap of 40
If he shoots 270 he has shoot 25% of his handicap Over.

so the 290 shooter would win.

I Think that this also means that you all Dont have to shoot at the same targets. so some could shoot ABA and some AV faces,as it is not other peoples scores you are trying to better only your own!

It would be good if both clubs could come up with the the same system as this would allow us to shoot some kind if joint comp.

Now that should Realy Confuse you!!!

[Colin]

We found that shooters with an average of 290 never won because there was always a shooter with an average of say 240, shooting more tha 10 over.

With the system that we are looking at using this does no happen as you are shooting against your own handicap.


A 290 shooter would be shooting between about 285 - 295. he has a handicap of 10
if he shoots 295 he has shoot 50% of his handicap Over.

A 260 shooter would be shooting Between about 245 - 275. he has a handicap of 40
If he shoots 270 he has shoot 25% of his handicap Over.

so the 290 shooter would win.

I Think that this also means that you all Dont have to shoot at the same targets. so some could shoot ABA and some AV faces,as it is not other peoples scores you are trying to better only your own!

It would be good if both clubs could come up with the the same system as this would allow us to shoot some kind if joint comp.

Now that should Realy Confuse you!!!

[Marcus]

yeah this makes more sense and could work. Noting that in your example the guy shooting 296+ won because he consistantly shot over that while most others went below their handicap score.
A joint comp could be cool, have a club winner and a cross club winner.

[Eberbachl]

Thanks for that Colin, after that last post it's becoming clearer to me now :)

So, what we are really looking at is a system where its not really the numbers as such, but the percentage of how much you beat your own average by.......

for example, regardless of scores, I beat my average by 12%, Marcus beats his by 16%, and Colin beats his by 18%...so Colin wins.

Do I have it right now?

I just got a copy of the spreadsheet, thanks Marcus...it does look quite good Colin....could be the way to go :)

[Toxophilite]

Hi guys,

Any more success in launching an indoor comp at DVA? It would be great if you guys got it up and running as there's a bit of talk in AA clubs concerning an inter-club indoor competition. Moorabbin currently run their comp on Tuesday nights (fornightly), and it's very popular. Sherbrooke are intending to build an indoor range (currently being reviewed by City Council ) and will hopefully be up and running inside a year. It'd be great if we could get the three clubs in on an over-arching comp. It could be held once a month say, rotating the venue each time. What do you guys think?

By the way, I like the web site, this forum is a great idea. I love these things :) :cool :( :mad aswell.

{*b}Good Shooting!!{b*}

[Eberbachl]

Hi Toxophilite! Welcome to the forum :D

An inter-club indoor comp sounds like a good idea. Marcus was just voted at our AGM as the new AV Tournament director, so he would be the one to talk to. I know that he is planning to implement the indoor league very soon.

Which club are you from?

...it's OK, I just read your profile :) ...Sherbrooke.


:p :p :p

[Marcus]

Hey thanks for the compliments, we are working hard on this site for sure. :) Spread the word about the forum it's open to all archers, and you are welcome to use the Scoreboard system too.
Yep the commitee is interested and I'm just finalising costs etc. Hoping to get it up and running by August 31st.
We are going to look at using Yarra's method of handicapping and will then be able to see how we go against them.
I'll post more info as it comes to hand.

[Colin]

After the first round of our indoor comp here are some results.(Yarra Valley)

OPEN COMP.
Colin Carter 1st - 287 +46.8%
Alan Carter 2nd - 290 +36.5%
Diane Carter 3rd - 259 +33%

Kids Comp.
Robert Carter 1st - 253 +15.8%

Needless to say there were calls of "RIGGED" from the members. I Need to work out a way to present the results better as the % seems to confuse people.

I have justed started shooting with a new back tension release. It has improved my shooting although on the weekend when i had another shoot I got 271 with two misses due to flinching. :D

[Marcus]

excellent shooting there Colin, that a big improvement for you isn't it? The back tension releases are very very nice to shoot once you get them under control. I won't shoot anything else but my 2 Finger CNC Stan, own and have tried others but they just feel great.
Yeah the Carter's cleaning up huh? It should all pan out by the end though. People always complain about handicap systems when they are losing. :) The DVA Senior Diamond Pile use to be a handicap team event. Adam Liddey, David Anear, Ray Morgan and myself (all DVA) got the top 4 places and still lost the teams event. :rolleyes . Bit annoyed with that, well you can't make everyone happy.

BTW which BT release did you go to? Don't tell me a "Carter"? :rolleyes :rolleyes :D

[Eberbachl]

Yeah, sounds like the Carter's are cleaning up down there - that's some nice shooting...here's hoping you can all keep beating your own average. That will be the hard part.:D

[Colin]

I am using a borrowed stan not sure what model.
I think i might look at buying the four fingered Ver with the extra ajustment screw for wrist angle.

[mike]

Regards the back tension release, I reckon what they are great for is not so much the whole suprise release thing, but that they provide a much more natural action -- you don't have to worry about applying pressure to a trigger. You just keep drawing, basically, and then it goes off! Simple, but effective. The best thing though is that it allows you to concentrate on the most important bit -- aiming -- and thats why I do not believe they are any harder to shoot in the wind than any other type of release. You have to be pointing in the ten to shoot it and so the more time at full draw you spend with your sight on the ten, the better your chance of hitting it when the arrow releases (seems elementary, doesn't it!)

I shoot an old Stan Mirage ( my foray into the trigger recently was brief and successfull, but I don't enjoy shooting with one as much.)

As for the indoor system, Moorabbin's system works like this:

Handicap is the difference b/w 300 and the average of your top 3 scores. You must shoot at least 2 rating points (from the AA rules) higher than handicap score for your handicap to change.

You get 3 bonus points for turning up to a round.

On each comp night there is a trophy for the handicap winner (which is often a person with a higher handicap, say a 260 shooter, but I won it once when my handicap was 14 ( I think though that on the night, that was the highest!!! when I left it was down to 9 I think)

This handicap bit rewards the beginning shooters, with Bill taking their photo and posting it on the website etc.

For the top shooters, asides from the club championships, the indoor trophy is probably the most sought after event.

Your score, plus your 3 'turned up' points are added up each round and an average of this is taken. The archers are then ranked according to their average score.

The 3 points mean that you can't win by simply turning up a couple of times and shooting a 300! people like Jim Park and Leigh Cornish and Marcel Verstegen end up with averages over 307.

Food for thought...

[Marcus]

Thanks for the info on the Moorabin system. We'll run with Yarra's this year (as it starts next week) and see how it goes. Maybe we'll develop another. :rolleyes

As for the BT releases I find that by being able to just pull through the shot as you said they allow me to fade out of the whole process. I don't agree that aiming is the most important part, rather a part that can throw people off. Most target panic is caused by a shooters brain interferring when they see the gold. The brain pipes in with "Quick press the trigger!".
In all sports it is best to perform when the brain is switched off and you run on instinct. Because a trigger release requires input you can not fully detatch yourself, the Stan means you can just go to sleep mentally and your body will just flow through the shot.

As for wind I prefer them to triggers because in very high wind (like we had in the 94 Geelong Jnr Nats) you can rip the release off and still keep good line. This requires practice of course so your form doesn't go to hell.

the more time at full draw you spend with your sight on the ten, the better your chance of hitting it when the arrow releases

Are you referring to windy conditions here or in general? I'm not a fan of long times at full draw due to the increased possibilities of brain interferance during the shot process. Alot of shooters have a certain window of opportunity to get the shot off well, if it goes beyond that form quality drops as they start to try and get the shot process to go through correctly.

In summary, I agree, Stan's rule!! Picked one up in 91 and have never gone back!

[greglander]

how long is too long at full draw ?? is your time of up to twelve seconds too long ?? hmm i wonder ?? :D :D

[Marcus]

Who's counting?

Sometimes it is, though I'm working on increasing it so emergencies. :)

[Colin]

Did you start your indoor shoot on friday?
How did it go? did you end up using our handicap system?
the only problem we have found is what score do you get if you are miss a week?.
we are using the lowest % on the night or -50% whatever is the lowest.

[Marcus]

No we start this Friday night, the 31st.
Yeah it's a tough one. I am thinking the lowest on the night is a good one. We were also thinking of a minimum of 6 scores with a missed night being 0%.