Jnr Divisions

[Marcus]

Back befor ethe 1993 Geelong Nationals AA changed the jnr divisions from U12, U15 and U18 to U12, U14, U16 and U18 so we would be more inline with the New Zealanders for the Trans Tasmen event.
At the time the uniors were not consulted on this, and the general feeling on the line was "why are we changing, we kick their ass every year!"
A meeting in Canberra has just intrduced U10 as well.
What do juniors and others feel about the move from 3 divisions to 5? Do you feel it has improved junior participation or made it worse?
At the same time U18's stopped shooting Ladies Fitas and started shooting Men's, while U18 girls started shooting Ladies. Do people think that is also a good idea?

[Eberbachl]

Are you totally serious??? ...did you say FIVE different junior age group divisions - that sounds insane :confused

[Marcus]

Yep 5. Why don't they just break it up on your year of birth and be done with it.
I sent a email to the CEO of AA telling im this was a bad thing, maybe if more people do they might look into it. What REALLY annoys me to is that I bet no one asked the juniors what they think. Who are 60+ year olds doing making junior rules? I use to pay out ABA for being run by clueless people, but now I must add AV to the list.

[Eberbachl]

yeah, that might make it easier for all concerned :rolleyes just make it 10y.o., 11y.o., 12y.o, 13y.o. etc etc..... oh yeah, and i think the 10's and 11's should shoot a men's FITA...:confused...

I think we would have to win the competition for the country with the most clueless governing bodies for archery :eek!!!

[Colin]

I Have Tow U10 Boys Shooting, but they have no one to shoot against at comps. the first thing that needs to be done is get rid of the BOY/GIRL in Jnrs. This would at least bring the numbers up in each DIV. To encourage more kids to shoot the AV and Comp Fees Need TO be Reduiced.

[Marcus]

crossing the sexes is interesting, but may be unfair as archery is helped by strentgh and guys develop the strength needed faster. However the do need to increase the competition. Even if you break into 2 age groups perhaps. U18 and U14, give people time to work their way up instead of changing divisions every year.
Agree with fees in a big way. I am going for DVA's Tournament director position and am going to push for a return of the Jnr Diamond Pile, this time with free entry if possible.
Colin, can you find out how many jnrs would like to shoot a Jnr Diamond Pile, Canberra round and down.

[Colin]

we have 8 to 10 Kids that shoot comps.
from memory
2 x u16 b
3 x u14 b
1 x u12 g
2 x u10 b
1 x u10 g all Compound
1 x u14 b Lobgbow
that are AV members
+ Others that are not av

The strengh thing does not realy come in to it till about 16 years old. the younger kids shoot about the same.
the highest score at AV indoor for U10 was a girl.

[greglander]

i agree with you colin about junior girls and boys shooting together if for example if they are friends or family they can help each oyher out. i am the assistant couch at diamond valley and know that kids do not have any hangups about shooting together i can see no negative outcomes from kids shooting i think it will promote friendly rivalry which should be encouraged in all levels of sport. friendly rivalry do you hear this av and aba administraitors? ps colin as for some others not having av membership if we have a junior diamond pile i should hope all would be welcome because our club has both societys anyway! i may be wrong but i will ask and get back to you unless someone out there already knows?shoot well greg :D

[Colin]

Maybe the way to get rid of the age div would be to shoot a diffrent size targets.
eg. say for the indoor 18m you could have 2 div

Kids Div
u10 - 120cm
u12 - 80cm

Jnr Div
u14 - 80cm
u16 - 40cm
u18 - 20cm

[Eberbachl]

Hey colin,I'm the secretary ate DVA, regarding your juniors who are not AV members, are you saying that they are members of your club only and not any governing body?

If that is the case we would need to have a careful look at insurance to determine if they are able to shoot at our Diamond Pile event. Don't get me wrong we would love to have them if they were interested in shooting our event, but of course would just need to make sure that they are covered.

I'll put it to the committee at our next meeting and let you know the outcome. Marcus and Greg, if I forget, could you both raise this issue also? ta!;)

Cheers,

:D:D:D

[Colin]

That right, as our club grounds are privately owned it has its own insurance. but also I believe that the owner has himself insured so that he can do clinics at schools, this may cover non members also. ...But I would have to check.

[Leo]

This topic (age groups/rounds) was apparently discussed (yet again) at the Junior Nats meeting of the state Junior coordinators at the Junior Nats in Perth in January. Don't hold your breath but we may hear something one day soon :-? :o ??

FITA recognises only 2 junior age divs - U18 and U16 - with your age on January 1 of any year dictating your age for that whole year. thats how the majority of sports i know of (baseball, soccer, hockey etc) decide age groups (Jan 1, July 1 or another set date - and horses on Aug 1 :oops: ) so why not archery? And all the FITA juniors/cadets shoot Women's FITAs (70,60,50,30) except the U18 boys who shoot a Men's FITA (90,70,50,30).

AA only recognises 4 age groups U18/16/14/12 - what individual states do is only at state level, not at National level, but it is taken on your age at the time, not for that calendar year.

Be interested to see what the oldies decide is best for the kids, compared with what the kids want, won't it!! :roll:

[westopher]

I grew up in the era of Under 12, 15, 18 and it was fine. AA went to the current break-up to comply with governement and community requirements at the time... it was a coincidence that that it was the same as NZ and became and urban myth.

I wasn't at the Perth meeting but I do know that they considered the physiological need to reduce the Recurve distances.

All of the sports cited here have been team sports which by their nature need generic age groups. It is hard to find a non-team sport that uses anything but your age on the date of the event. Actual age is also much fairer for people whose birthdays are eleven months after a generic date. In our adolescent years we develop are very different rates and actual age is the closest way so far to be fair.

FITA has two division but they are catering for World Championships; let's not lose sight of the fact that AA is catering for National and State events and wants everyone to be involved and enjoy the sport. The word FITA doesn't make it right; many of that organisation's decisions are compromises.

As for
Be interested to see what the oldies decide is best for the kids, compared with what the kids want, won't it!!

Perhaps "respect" for the people who give up their time to run things for the Juniors would be a good start. How many working bees do you attend Leo to get ready for Nationals in your state?

[Marcus]

So making a 16 year old boy shoot 90m is a government requirement?

[Leo]

How many working bees do you attend Leo to get ready for Nationals in your state?

Working bees :o :o

doh - I heard that santa's elves did all the work :(

[Marcus]

Perhaps "respect" for the people who give up their time to run things for the Juniors would be a good start

Just because you attend working bees, doesn't mean you own them. One major problem with Junior archery is the adults deciding what's best for it. Fact is that Jr archery is in a pathetic state in this country, and the only way a sport can grow and become bigger is through juniors. Argue all you want about how they leave at 18 etc etc, but end of the day most juniors never even make it to competitive level and then are put off by adults telling them they know nothing.

I wasn't at the Perth meeting but I do know that they considered the physiological need to reduce the Recurve distances.


I sure hope they don't just make changes for recurve archers. I have quite a few compound juniors at my club who can not make 70m at age 14. 55m yes, but not 70m.


I grew up in the era of Under 12, 15, 18 and it was fine.
damn straight, and it worked very very well. let's return to it.

[James Park]

When I started (years and years ago) there were only under 15, under 18, and open, just recurve, and men and women. It was much simpler. Hans Wright won every competition (and everyone expected him to).
The two junior age groups worked very well.
FITA seems to have just two junior age groups: is it 16 and under, and 18 or 21 and under?

[robbo]

I agree with the 12, 15 & 18 age groups ( to a point), and the need for realistic distances.

I don't see the sense in forcing kids to shoot too high a poundage just to make unrealistic distances.

[ambie]

when all this talk of reducing the distances came up i thought that it was a good idea...then the plan came out...which is somewhere else in this site?? but the distances have not been reduced...the under 18 boys are still shooting 90...so i figure that if the main aim was to reduce the distances then that is what should be happening...not bringing in new groups and divisions...change it so that all under 18s shoot the ladies fita...the under 16s the fremantle the under 14s and under 12s the horsham...i dont see the point of the intermediate...if someone wants to shoot the 90 metres then enter as an adult...that solves all the problems...

the only juniors system i have shot under is the current one...but i think that reducing the number of divisions would be a sure way to create more people in each division...therefore giving competitors more competition.

as for the under 10s division...there arent really that many under 10 who shoot the major comps like the nationals...so if it is required within a state then do it...but i dont see how it is needed at national level...there is enough trouble trying to get numbers in the divisions already there.

busy bees huh? they are needed...and everyone who wishes to participate in an event should help if it is required...i have been to a number of state and even more club ones over the years...i admit that when i was younger i didnt do anything...but really...the busy bees benifit everyone...so y not just go and give a hand...the more people that attend means the less that will be required to be held.

many decisions made are made without consulting us juniors, but think about it...how many of us would be willing to sit down for hours at meetings and discuss and plan and do everything that the adults do with our best interests at heart?? maybe a mixed junior and senior committee is in order? maybe in the near future...we can hope anyway :D

[Marcus]

Good post

I think you need the Intermediate. The Horsham is too easy for a 13 year old to shoot. (remember that the National record is 1351 for an intermediate and I know of 3 U15 shooters about 10 years ago who shot 1400 Intermediates)

The age groups use to be

U12: Horsham
U15: Intermediate
U18 Girls: Fremantle
U18 Boys: Ladies FITA

That system worked perfectly.

The extra age group screws things up. At least one age group will be forced to shoot the same distances for twice as long either

U12: Horsham
U14: Horsham
U16: Fremantle
U18 Girls: Fremantle
U18 Boys: Ladies FITA

or

U12: Horsham
U14: Intermediate
U16 Girls: Intermediate
U16 Boys: Fremantle
U18 Boys: Ladies FITA
U18 Girls: Fremantle

I personally think the best solution is the 3 age groups with U12 and U15 shooting mixed to increase competition (given that one of those U15 1400 shooters was a girl shows they can compete)

[Foxcub]

is there a div for under 12s

[ambie]

yes there is a division for under 12s. or do you mean with the old system? they shot in the u15s. :lol:

[ambie]

sorry i take that back...there was an under 12s for that too. y do you ask? are you an under 12?? or know someone who is? i started comps when i was under12, and now i am under 18...it is a great feeling to have stayed with the sport that long...not that i could leave if i wanted...im addicted to this archery thing. :roll:

[robbo]

maybe a mixed junior and senior committee is in order? maybe in the near future...we can hope anyway :D

At our club we have a junior liason officer on the committee.

Maybe the state and national bodies could do the same, if they haven't done already.

[Alan Loy]

I'm interested that we have chosen age and gender as the two determinants of junior divisions. Given the different rates of growth of kids this seems to be highly suspect if the goal is to produce a competitive division.

I think that height & weight would be fairer but I supose these have other overtones. How about divisions based on draw length? Measure the armspan from tip to tip and use this to create classes for young archers. Yes I know this is weird.

I think an under 16 and 18 gender based divisions would then make sense.

[Marcus]

Problem with draw length is that Greg would never have gotten out of U14's. LOL (dammit, where is the Guru?)

I think age is a fair way to determine, or just go via skill level. A, B and C class

A class: Ladies FITA
B class: Intermediate
C class: Horsham

That way an U18 recurve beginner can shoot a lower class till they build up strength. Once you win twice in a division you get bumped up

[robbo]

I think age is a fair way to determine, or just go via skill level. A, B and C class

I don't think either way suits everyone, that is why we have a mishmash of both systems.

[robbo]

That way an U18 recurve beginner can shoot a lower class till they build up strength. Once you win twice in a division you get bumped up

I like the way you can work your way up the ladder.

The grades in ABA work in a similar fashion.

[Alan Loy]

Marcus, why age?

[Marcus]

Because a 5'10" 13 year old is not the same as a 5'10" 17 year old. Take Sten for example, I would have kicked his butt at the same age but was about half the size (there you go Sten, throwing down the gauntlet!). Had we been around at the same time and he shot in a higher division just due to body size it would not have been right. He would also have been torn up by the older kids. Also setting a 13 year old up against 17 year olds shooting 55# bows may force him to shoot poundage too high.

Now give him a few more years and it may be a different story, takes time to develop as an archer. Yep he is a hell of a lot better than his peers, but someone has to win, and if you are 13 and 4'8" tall and shooting 1100 intermediates, then it's just not your time yet.

[Alan Loy]

Marcus

Is a 5' 10'' 13 year old the same as a 5' 2'' 13 year old?

Experience is a product of the age that people start and how frequently they practice not the age that they are at the moment.

Under 16 (or 15, 14, 13 etc) means that an archer could choose to be in either their size category or the lowest of the age categories. I presume they could also enter comps as a senior if they wanted.

What I am suggesting is that for younger juniors size limits their capacity more than age. Think about this from a recurve (olympic) viewpoint rather than compound. Certain weedy juniors may develop better form through an appropriate recurve division.

[Marcus]

Yeah, experiance canm not be assumed. Most of the top juniors shoot open or higher age groups anyway from time to time, that is why age is the easiet. Just need to keep a three year gap between moving age in order to give kids time to develop in a class.

[ambie]

arm span huh? that is different...cept that i would never get higher than under 12...and even then the under 12s at my club have longer arms than me...

skill is partly what was trying to be bought in...still in the process i think...but i think skill OR age...not both...hehehe...

there is never going to be a system which will suit everyone...everyone is different...and so finding a system which works could be a good start...

has anyone stopped to consider that i high poundage isnt all that necessary to reach the maximum distance?? and that the wish for speed and wind resistance is what is making ppl want to shoot the high poundage?? ok i know that males have to shoot 90...and i think that the juniors shouldnt have to shoot any more than 70...but if someone doesnt want to increase the poundage then they shouldnt...saying that i have only very recently upped my poundage to reach 70...because it was nearly impossible for me to get that distance from pulling 23lb out of a recurve...

the a b c class thing could work marcus...but have to win twice to move up? maybe only achieve a certain score twice??

[Marcus]

but have to win twice to move up? maybe only achieve a certain score twice??
Yep, I think that would work better


One thing I don't understand is that a 60+ Veteren Male compounder who can shoot 50# with ease shoots the same distance as a 14 year old girl recurve archer, who if new to the sport, would struggle with 28#. How does that work?
:roll:

[mike]

One thing I don't understand is that a 60+ Veteren Male compounder who can shoot 50# with ease shoots the same distance as a 14 year old girl recurve archer, who if new to the sport, would struggle with 28#. How does that work?


Hang on a sec Marcus, on another thread your saying that people should be lumped together based on score. This would necessitate Vets shooting with Juniors ultimately.

:oops:

[Foxcub]

thank you for that

[robbo]

the a b c class thing could work marcus...but have to win twice to move up? maybe only achieve a certain score twice??

In ABA to move up a grade you have to shoot a certain score (range) 3 times.

[Marcus]

And that would be fine with me Mike, as long as they were shooting in the same score class. But the Vets are shooting 1350+ while the 14yo girls can barely make the target.
Just pointing out how much the junior divisions have been screwed up when this happens.

[bilnic]

:evilbat: Another oldie putting in his 2-bobs worth ... I like the 4 age groups but tend to agree with Amber - you should either have the system based on age groups OR ability but not both. For what it is worth, I would suggest

U/18 boys and girls shoot a modified 'Ladies FITA' (70,60,50,40)
U/16 boys and girls shoot a Fremantle (60, 50, 40, 30)
u/14 boys and girls shoot a modified Intermediate (50,40,30,25)
U/12 boys and girls shoot the Horsham (40,35,30,25)

There is scope for an u/10 division shooting a round comprising (30, 25,20,15m)

Given the huge range of growth and development which takes place for people aged 10-12 and again 12-16 and the differences in size within the same age group (regardess of male/female), I would probably lean more towards a system based on ability ONLY - but still make use of the above rounds.

I feel the current gap of 5 m difference between the Intermediate and the Fremantle is unnecessary (too small a variance when changing age divisions) yet going from 55m - 70m can be too much and can be very disheartening for those involved. (hence the rounds as above)

As an aside - I think there is also some benefit in not segregating the males/females - at the younger end of the scale the girls are often equal to or stronger than the boys, (even some of the women use stronger bows than half the men) and with modern equipment the top end scores are not dissimilar and do not need heavy poundage to get similar results. If the rounds as above were used, this equality would become even more apparent. (methinks the guys may not like being beaten though). So - only a recurve division and a compound division (and barebow for each of course) :P

Whilst I am on my soap-box ... I think the bottom two rounds should only be shot using the 'standard bow' :roll: but that is another topic.

[Jim Beatty]

:evilbat: Another oldie putting in his 2-bobs worth ... I like the 4 age groups but tend to agree with Amber - you should either have the system based on age groups OR ability but not both. For what it is worth, I would suggest

U/18 boys and girls shoot a modified 'Ladies FITA' (70,60,50,40)
U/16 boys and girls shoot a Fremantle (60, 50, 40, 30)
u/14 boys and girls shoot a modified Intermediate (50,40,30,25)
U/12 boys and girls shoot the Horsham (40,35,30,25)

There is scope for an u/10 division shooting a round comprising (30, 25,20,15m)

Given the huge range of growth and development which takes place for people aged 10-12 and again 12-16 and the differences in size within the same age group (regardess of male/female), I would probably lean more towards a system based on ability ONLY - but still make use of the above rounds.

I feel the current gap of 5 m difference between the Intermediate and the Fremantle is unnecessary (too small a variance when changing age divisions) yet going from 55m - 70m can be too much and can be very disheartening for those involved. (hence the rounds as above)

As an aside - I think there is also some benefit in not segregating the males/females - at the younger end of the scale the girls are often equal to or stronger than the boys, (even some of the women use stronger bows than half the men) and with modern equipment the top end scores are not dissimilar and do not need heavy poundage to get similar results. If the rounds as above were used, this equality would become even more apparent. (methinks the guys may not like being beaten though). So - only a recurve division and a compound division (and barebow for each of course) :P

Whilst I am on my soap-box ... I think the bottom two rounds should only be shot using the 'standard bow' :roll: but that is another topic.

Currently our 2 top recurve archers in Oz are both juniors.
They both started at a very early age and developed through good training and and stepping up into higher divisions long before they were required to do so.
I believe that it gave them the opportunity to settle in to the longer ranges before they were forced to do so.

[Marcus]

Back when there was three age groups the best archers in the country were also juniors, and they competed at 70m in juniors. The cream rises to the top, so why drive away the rest?

The 4 divisions and longer distances test was a failure and needs to be reversed, not expanded on, before junior archery ceases to exist.

[bilnic]

Quite true - the top 2 shooters are juniors and many others coming up fast. And yes, juniors can shoot in a higher division if they wish (or are encouraged into it) before they are forced into it. By default, these people have initiated shooting in a system based on their ability rather than the system being there in the first place. All I am advocating is that this aspect could be formalised rather than the proposed mixtures of age/ability that is on the table at the moment. 8)

[littlejohnsboss]

I have been reading all the comments regarding distance first. I have to let you all know one thing when the distances for Juniors was disgussed for Juniors back in 2002. It was I yes I who instigated the change in them due to Juniors and parents asking for the change. But one thing first that seems to have been forgoten as for changing girls and boys together. If another Junior wishes to compete and take an award of that junior then they must show up. That Junior has earned the right for the award just for showing and turning up because they are committed. The big fix is easy we get more Juniors shooting isn't archery about having archers or new people to do the sport. Oh and the distances have been disgussed by Juniors and asked by the Junior development committee what they think. Just one of some of the feed back is "I don't care what I shoot has long as I can shoot my bow". My experience is that Senior archers don't know what the Juniors think until they actually chat to them as I do. As others are aware on here a high percentage of Seniors can not even tell you the rounds the Juniors even do even at Club level. We should make them more aware. How do I know this I am on the AA Junior develpment committee and deal with Juniors every week. Just ask them. Oh and Juniors don't forget to put your comments on here if you read this. Would love to here from you. If you are a Junior and didn't get a say then speak up at your club. There are Juniors joining and leaving archery every week so us adults have to keep up with them and I am not 60+ but thats fine its comments on here we need to here to find out were to move archery for the future so it can GROW! yes GROW! :D :multi: :smilecolros:

[Marcus]

So your opinion boss is that we should create as many divisions as possible so everyone gets a prize and then those who think it's stupid are to blame for not getting more juniors in?
Given that you have already said you have lived through the 60's I would guess that you have not been a junior for some time. (if ever)
Both myself and my wife grew up in the junior program and both now coach juniors, so we speak to them alot and have recent experiance in the system.
Both of us were juniors when they went from 3 divisions to 4 then to 5 and when they changed from 70m to 90m for U18.
Now I can tell you this, JUNIOR ARCHERY HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS SINCE THESE CHANGES WERE MADE.
Example, my club use to hold a Jr Only tournament, with approx 40 kids. We don't run it anymore because 3 years in a row they couldn't even get 5 to turn up. That was since the division numbers increased.

We have fewer numbers, scores are lower (except for the odd exception) and more kids are leaving the sport.
When the changes were made I heard NO POSITIVE COMMENTS from the juniors at the tiime, ALL HATED IT. It was do-gooders who did it without asking.

I have lost 75% of our juniors at my club (improvement from 100% before I started working with them) and the main reason is that MOST CAN NOT MAKE THE REQUIRED DISTANCE. We have recurve girls who can not make 70m, and they are only 16 years old. They could make 60m, but not 70m. Many start shooting well and ask "What do I have to do to shoot comps?" "Ok I say, you are a 16 year old boy, that means you must shoot 90m" 2 months later they are gone, discouraged.

Your system of sub divisions does not fix this. Do you understand that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JUNIORS TO SUPPORT THE SCEME. We will not be able to increase our junior numbers by the 1200% your system would require to make it feasable. I would love to see that happen, BUT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN BY HAVING PEOPLE TELL THEIR MATES ABOUT ARCHERY, NOR WILL IT IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM OR PROPOSED SYSTEM.

A certain percentage don't shoot tournaments, because they have no one to shoot with there. THEY ARE EMBARRASED COLLECTING THEIR PRIZE. They have expressed to me this fact.

I'm sure you feel proud to collect 1st out of 1 archer (last place) but most do not feel that way.

It takes more guts to cut divisions than to add divisions.


The big fix is easy we get more Juniors shooting isn't archery about having archers or new people to do the sport.
Yes it's so easy that we will be able to have the approx 750 juniors required to make a multi divisional age group system work at the Nationals. That's only a 750% increase since the last nationals.

Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but I can not find any logical reasoning behind this plan. I am dumbfounded.

[Robert de Bondt]

Even though I agree with that there seem to be too many classes, I would just like to give you our experience. We recognise that that the distances for the AA classifications are very often too long and as such we run the Northern Junior Challenge along the following lines:

Northern Junior Challenge
Divisions: Recurve & Compound

U/18 Boys & Girls - Perth 70/60/50

U/16 Boys & Girls

[littlejohnsboss]

:D Robert great Junior tournament and we hold simular events over in the west including OzBow juniors from clubs and club programs at the same time infact there is one on the 17th of August.
Great to here from yo guys finally a line to the east that I can hear constructive talk. I know there will be Juniors who will be on here soon doing this as we have a Junior rep in the west helping our juniors move on leaving our seniors behind with organisational skills.

[Marcus]

You seem to associate encouragement with winning. Why are medals so important to you?
We have approx 10 juniors shooting each week in a club comp WITHOUT A MEDAL AT THE END. We have taught them to shoot for score, not plastic.

As a coach I take offence to your comment regarding coaches deciding a junior can not make the distance. Explain to me why a 40 year old grown adult is only expected to shoot 70m with a compound when a 16 year old boy is expected to shoot 90m? One of my 13 year old students shoots 70m and will be moving back to 90m soon, exception to the rule.

The Age divisions will not work because you are seperating competition. Worse than that you are taking developing juniors away from competing with their peers. When I was a junior I would often shoot with kids who you would have put as a grade lower, guess what? Because they got to shoot with people better than them they worked harder and shot better. Your system will limit their growth.

Do you understand that divisions can ONLY be created once there are sufficient numbers to support them? If you can get 10 kids per division you have my support, less than that and it's a waste on money and hurtful to junior archery. ONLY create a new division when there are too many in an existing one. If you can not even fill existing divisions then you will not fill 3 times the divisions.
It's hard enough for juniors to get respect in this sport as is without handing out more medals.

Also how is the 4th place division 1 going to feel when they shoot a higher score than the 1st place division 2 and not get a medal?

If you want to encourage juniors you would be better off running tournaments where the ALL archers compete in their class. So an U14 1st class Boy shoots an Intermediate against a 1st class open man shooting a Mens FITA. That would encourage more juniors because they would be mixing it up with the adults.

Sounds to me like you are not interested in feedback, just endorsement. Have you ever competed as a junior? In the last 15 years?

On the other side though it is good to hear others who want to see junior archery progress.

[Kuru]

Simple solution, under 12's shoot a Horsham, U 15's shoot an Intermediate and U18's shoot a ladies Fita :) There really needs to be a shake up with junior development in Australia. To many seniors thinking they know whats best for Juniors, ever thought of asking them for god sake ! Maybe it's just the seniors worried that half the juniors will kick their ass in a few years !
I worry about the state of Juniors in Australia. Victoria especially !
Somebody that has been there done that should run for Junior development officer in Victoria :D

[Marcus]

Somebody that has been there done that should run for Junior development officer in Victoria
I agree Gareth :wink:

[robbo]

To many seniors thinking they know whats best for Juniors

:o :o :roll:

[mr_flibble]

Being a junior that has been in the system since 1996, and am still in it I find that the Junior system is an absolute joke!
I agree with other when they say that distances should definitely reduced and divisions reduced. How about...
U/18 shoot Canberra
U/15 shoot Short Canberra
U/12 shoot Junior Canberra
Why do we have to have FITA evquivilents for juniors? 98% of them are not here to shoot world championships, so they do not need FITA's. If any of the juniors want to shoot FITAs they are more than welcome to shoot in the open division. I'm sure i could find many more 14 year olds interested in competitions if they only had to shoot 50m and not 70m.

"My experience is that Senior archers don't know what the Juniors think until they actually chat to them as I do"

sorry littlejohnboss but ive been a junior for longer than any of the other current juniors shooting, and quite a few of the seniors too (how long have you been shooting littlejohnboss?) and you havent 'chatted' to me about junior archery.

a high percentage of Seniors can not even tell you the rounds the Juniors even do even at Club level

Why should the seniors have to care? 90% of seniors dont need to know and it has nothing to do with them. Unless they are coaching a junior of course.

many seniors thinking they know whats best for Juniors

well said.

Less divisions at shorter distances will encourage more competition. Not 1000 divisions at 20 different distances, thats just pointlessly confusing.

Just my 2c though.

[Marcus]

Mr Flibble
The FITA equivlen rounds are good because when there is a FITA shoot on the juniors have their own 144 arrow rounds. using
U18 boys: Ladies FITA
U18 Girls: Fremantle
U15 boys and girls: Intermediate
U12 Boys and girls: Horsham

are shootable distances for the ages represented. That way a 14 year old can shoot 55m, and when they turn 15 have 3 years to get use to 70m before moving to 90m.

Good post

[Kuru]

I'd love to see junior development officers, or a junior selected from each state meet for a national forum with the AA board, I know it'll never happen but we can all dream :roll:

[Marcus]

They probably do Gareth, but it's not like archers ever get reports. I'm sure reports go to the RGB's who MAY send it to the club who MAY tell someone who needs to know. Communication from above is crap.

[Strewth]

xxx

[Chris]

As a current junior the system is an absoulte joke.
I am 16 and have just had to buy a new bow to make the required distances. MENS FITA 90,70,50,30. It costs a lot of money. However i personally wanted to shoot 90 for the challenge and the chance to better myself.

Marcus if the current system was scrapped i would be forced to shoot in the open division to shoot the Mens FITA. I think there should still be 4 divisions but have:

U/12 M/f shoot Horsham
U/15 M/f shoot Intermediate
U/18 M shoot Ladies FITA
U/18 F shoot Fremantle

then have a ADVANCED U/18 M/F
shooting a Mens FITA and a Ladies FITA for Males and Females respectively. The only way to qulify for this would be to shoot 2x1260 rounds.

This system would only work however if there was enough Junior Archers to fit the plan. The basis of the problem

[ambie]

hey flibbs..just a reminder...we have been in the junior circut the same amount of time!!
i think that having the fita rounds is good for juniors...but i think that it is unnecessary for the males to have to shoot 90 metres until they are in seniors...and meanwhile if they have the urge or ability to shoot the mens then enter the seniors. i know that me and flibbs both enter the seniors division because there is no competition in wa in our respective divisions...and it is good to have a little competition every now and then...
also...bringing back the old divisions would be a great idea...it would be useful and less stressful for the juniors.
i know that people think that seniors dont listen to the juniors, but once you reach a certain level of archery then it doesnt matter how old you are...people will just respect you and your opinions because you are a fellow archer...i mean we can all have as much say as we want...and if we really want to be heard then just speak up a little more...the main reason that juniors arent heard is because the majority dont say anything because they think that noone will listen. if you have something worth while being said then people listen.
on a better note...i hope that i will get to see you all at the nationals in january...only another few months to go!!cant wait

[Tim Cuddihy]

I shot my first few competitions gettinga thanks for coming award for being the only one in the age group. It was crap. I reckon this potatohead's idea of introducing "Between the ages of 12 and 6months to 13 compound second class lefthanded odd sock black haired field barebow" division or whatever his idea is is a joke. maybe the distances need to be changed but i dknow of any kids who are proud of winning a state title because they are the only one that entered in their division

[drizzt]

Changing the divisons again won't make a huge difference. We only have around about three or four junior recurve girls in our state (Vic) that are shooting comps. Changing the divisons back isn't going to change much beacuse we still won't have enough archers to fill the spots to make it a great shoot.

I agree that shooting in a competition by yourself and winning a medal takes all of the fun out of winning a medal but winning when the only person you have shot against is a little kid ain't much fun either.

[archerybob]

taliban is right! (now there a first!) winning a state champs cause you are the only one competing is as empty as a VB bottle after achmedthegimp has claimed "i just want a sip!!" and the distances should change! it should be like the koreans 30 metres for little takkers and 30 + 50 for medium then fitas!