ACE, ACC, Cartel Triple. What's the diff?

[Pete]

I think the title says it all, since I'm looking at buying some Triples. I especially want to know the diff between Cartel and ACC. ACC work out to be cheaper. My very low buget is a factor so X10's are out of the question.

Also, if I decide on Triples what size and point weight should I use. I shoot a 40# recurve at 28.5in.

[Eberbachl]

Hi Pete,

I'm going to guess here that you are shooting primarily target with these arrows......

Here's a quick summary of some of the above arrow characteristics:

X10's: excellent quality, barreled shape, thin, heavy, very expensive
ACE's: excellent quality, barreled shape, thinnish (not as thin as X10's), light, expensive
ACC's: excellent quality, thick, heavyish, reasonable price
Triples: excellent quality, thin, heavy, reasonable price

I'd daresay that essentially the difference you will find with the ACC's compared to the triples is that the greatly reduced diameter of the triples when compared to the rather thickish diameter of the ACC's for the same weight will give you considerably less problems in the wind. When comparing the ACE's to Triples, I'd say the Triples would be better, as they are thinner and heavier, causing less wind drift. The triples are great value for money when compared to the X10's as they share alot of common attributes (except ballistic tungsten points :) )with a fraction of the price. The X10's and ACE's are a barreled shaft though which will help them in the wind, the X10's probably more visible result for your setup.

All of the above arrows are excellent quality, have great straightness tolerances, and weight tolerances.

You will probably find that the Triples are more durable than the ACC's though, with a thicker carbon wrap around the aluminium.

....So for reduced wind drift, and more durability compared to similar quality otherwise, and similar price, I'd go for the Triples in your case (that is if my assumption about target is right).

According to the Cartel selection chart, you seem to be in the 700-500 range, so probably about middle would be good, say a 600, although some guys have been finding their bows have prferred a stiffer Triple (these were compound though, maybe a recurver that has tried these shafts can comment). I know that the guys I'm shooting with are getting very good results with their Triples and heavyish points, say 100gn or even full weight at 110gn.......

What do the rest of you guys think???

[James Park]

I have never shot the Triples, but I think that Luke's summary is excellent.

[foo]

I haven't used them but I'm guessing that if you're going to be using heavyish points, that probably explains why some guys prefer a stiffer Triple.

[Marcus]

I've shot for quite a bit of time now the ACE's, ACC's and now the Triples. Here are my opinions.

ACE: Excellent arrow. Awesome components and very consistant. Great for unmarked and super light. Not as good at 90m or in the wind unless you use very very heavy points. Somewhat fragile. Out of 16 bought since March last year I have 5 left. Most damage though side contact and occasionally damage to backend from a Robin Hood attempt.

ACC: As above yet as Luke said heavier. Thicker diametre will equal greater wind drift, and also greater damage to shaft on contact. I found these excepionally fragile. Can't tell you how many I went through, but there were quite a few. While I liked them I would not shoot them for target again, while I may save a couple of $ to start with that would soon be gone in replacements.

Triples: Only been shooting for a few months, and only seriously outdoors for about a month. Very impressed. Still have full set (touch wood) despite crunching together at 70m to 30m. Far more accurate than my ACE's, especially at 90m. Points are really nice, not a fluch ACE type fit, but strong and consistant.
I highly recommend these arrows, even my wife is considering a set and she shoots X10's (which BTW are better than the Triples, but not 3 times better)
Checkout this thread on my construction of the Doo Sungs (now called Triples)
http://www.archery-forum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=81502
You can see the weight variations I got with them.

In my opinion right now the top arrows on the market for target are
X10's
Triples
McKinneys
ACE's
ACC's

good luck

[foo]

Marcus, what are your opinions on the McKinneys and why have you rated them lower than the Cartels? Is it because of the points and nocks? (I read your review of the CT Royals on the dva site..)

[Marcus]

The McKinneys are a nice arrow. Well made and straight. However I feel they lose points on the grounds that they are not an A/C arrow. A/C arrows tend to be stronger, especially at the ends and I feel maintain their quality for a longer period of time.
The pin nock system on the McKinney's has reported to result in damaged shafts, while I haven't heard of that with the Cartels.

There is not a lot in it, and McKinney's have been proven to be good shooting arrows, however I feel that a buyer will get greater satisfaction from the Cartels and greater lifespan. Which one will shoot better scores depends on that persons tuning for each arrow.

[James Park]

One thing that I think is of importance with arrows of the construction of the Mckinneys is their consistency of stiffness across different orientations. Anyone got any experience in this with them?

[Pete]

Thanks everyone. That settles it. I'm going to get Triples. Now I just have to find some spare cash lying around. I'm sure that they'll be a big improvement to my X7's.

And yes, I shoot mainly Target.

[Colin]

My dad had a set of Mckinneys, they lasted less than 3 months. Most smashed from target impact. He is now shooting the triples.

I have been shooting my carbon tech 210s for almost 14 months. Out of 12 I have 10 left. Lost 2 in the grass. :cry:

[foo]

Does your dad shoot compound or recurve? I'm thinking that where durability may be an issue for arrows coming out of a 60lb compound at 200+fps, it may not be such an issue for arrows coming out of a 38lb recurve and less than half the speed (i.e. my setup)..

[Bruce]

On Saturday , I shot a canberra in the wind at Werribee's new ground . I would say that the wind was blosing around the 20 knot mark . I was shooting my cartels (400, 108 gn points 30") from my 60# ultratec once I had my windage adjusted the arrows preformed faultlessly . I know that I am not a brilliant shot but in the wind I was only 8 points off my pb for a canberra , Which I was very happy with . Heavy points are the way to go . Even with only 187 fletches the back of the arrow was trying to meet the front but the 108gn point kept pulling the arrow to its mark. Averaged 58 at 50m and 59 at 40 m dont want to talk about 60 lost to many points there.

[Pete]

I went out and bought some triples/olympians today. My wallett took a battering and I only have $1.20 left. Now I'm scared to shoot them because I might destroy them.

[PeterH]

I went out and bought some triples/olympians today.Now I'm scared to shoot them because I might destroy them.

Don't be too concerned. Easy to shoot when set up properly and very durable. I've seen them ploughed into a 4"X2" beam and through a sheet of 5 ply. No obvious damage :D

[OldDog]

Shoot em with confidence pete, I slammed one into a very hard very dead tree the other day, the arrow came back about 30 metres, my initial thoughts were dead arrow but I am still shooting it today, the other positive is that you can slam them together in groups and while you might lose the odd nock I have not damaged a shaft yet.

[mike]

Good Purchase Pete!

I haven't shot ACEs, X10s or Mckinneys, but have shot ACCs and Beman Divas (which are basically the same as a Mckinney)

The Mckinneys are heavier per inch for the same spine and are also a thicker diameter. Quite aside from cost/durability IMHO this makes them a poorer choice than the Cartels (don't tell Roger Hoyle that though... :o )

I have 10 out of my 12 left after about 3 months.

1 I shot into the ground and couldn't find (30m setting at 90m will do this :roll: )

The other one was a straight out crush by another arrow (mine) it was a damn hard hit though at 50m I think.

Can't complain about accuracy etc and they were very straight and well weight matched out of the box. 1160 Sydney round on Sunday with them and a few very good ends at 90m (59, 57, 58 that sort of thing) so they have to be doing alright.

[foo]

The Mckinneys are heavier per inch for the same spine and are also a thicker diameter. Quite aside from cost/durability IMHO this makes them a poorer choice than the Cartels (don't tell Roger Hoyle that though... :o )


Are you sure about that?
Looking at the selection charts for a 28" arrow:

For a 60lb soft/mild cam compound cartel = 500 (gpi: 7.52), ct = 196 (gpi: 7)
o/d: cartel = 5.38mm, ct = 4.98 mm

For a 40lb recurve, cartel = 700 (gpi: 6.68 ) , ct = 188 (gpi: 6.5)
o/d: cartel = 5.25mm, ct = 4.78mm

[Marcus]

196's are a touch soft compared to the 500 Doo Sungs.
However I do believe the CT's are a little thinner by a mm or 2. But no where near as durable.

[mike]

if that's the case then I stand corrected, but when I was last looking at the charts for CTs, I found that for my set up (57# single cam at 28 inch) I needed the 205s or 210s in the CTs. These are heavier and thicker than the Doo Sung 500 which is what I got in accordance with Cartel's chart.

I remember now noticing that CTs chart changed to reccommend softer arrows...

Had the Chart reccomended to me a 196 CT Sportster I might have got them because they are so cheap by comparison to everything else...but I wasn't going to get the 210 because they were just to thick and heavy for my liking (I have enough trouble getting 90m as it is without really heavy shafts making it harder! )

[Marcus]

I think you'll find you were better off getting the Doo Sungs Mike. I've shot the Royals which are the next shaft above the Sportsers and they were no where near the quality of the Doo Sungs. Also I found the 196's a touch light for my Mach 5 V5 at 53# so they would have been way too soft for your setup.

[mike]

yep, Marcus, i think I made the right choice -- i can't fault their performance at tournaments so far!

[James Park]

I think Cartel has made a mistake in making the different size arrows different diameters. This means that some will work well in wind while others will not. Much better to take the X10/ACE approach of same diameter but different modulus carbon.

[Marcus]

You may find though Jim that that will lead to increased cost and a decrease in strength for some sizes. I always though the 620's were a tough ACE, but the 570's are not.
Also the size issue isn't too bad untill you get to the 300's, even then they are pretty thin.

[James Park]

Marcus,
I think you are correct about the strength, and it is a good reason.
However, I am prepared to pay if I will score more (hence I use X10's).

[Marcus]

However, I am prepared to pay if I will score more (hence I use X10's).

I agree, that is why I bought Erika X10's. I still think the X10's are the best arrow you can buy.

[crosshairs]

I think Cartel has made a mistake in making the different size arrows different diameters. This means that some will work well in wind while others will not. Much better to take the X10/ACE approach of same diameter but different modulus carbon.

Marcus was right. That will defeat the purpose of marketing Cartel Triples as a cheaper alternative to X10's and ACE's.

With this consideration, I wonder if Cartel will come up with something to match the performance of X10's in the near future. What I understand about the barrel design is that it vibrates with a higher frequency and for some reasons, it translates to higher efficiency and obviously becomes more forgiving (higher frequency reponse to inconsistent releases) within a certain range of performance by the archer. If cartel is able to come up with a new series that performs as well as the X10's with it's parallel design, and cost around a hundred less than X10, we will see a new trend sweeping across the recurve scene.

Hey, instead of varying the external shaft diameter to achieve varying stiffness along the shaft, why not vary the internal diameter? Unless the increased surface area at the center of the shaft plays a part too?