No womens divisions in Vic ABA shoots

[woodduck]

I cant help thinking this is an unfair situation, which will ultimately discourage women attending/competeting in shoots to the detriment of the sport.
I have heard the argument about tailoring light arrows to low poundage compounds so that women aren't really being disadvantaged, and this is, in my opinion, a load of bull.
Hands up all the top men shooters who shoot a compound under 50 pounds. How close are your sight pins set? Be honest !
The real reason the girls aren't in a division of their own is to be *****rdly with providing trophys at shoots end. What sports put women against men in competition, where physical strength is a factor. None!
I know that the standard of trophys, has in some cases, been poor, as clubs try not to run shoots at a loss, but it seems to me that maybe we should be looking at redirecting more of the shoot fees back to the clubs, to nurture the grass roots level of ABA.
No solid house ever results from being built on shaky foundations, and women and families are the future of our sport. What do you think?

[Marcus]

From my understanding instead they use grades and archers compete in the grade that suit's their ability. So a 50lb shooting women who shoots 350 is up against the 80lb shooting men who shoot 350. Seems fair to me.

[woodduck]

Marcus,
It's so fair that women shooting light equipment use great skill just to advance into the low ranks of the next grade, while men shooting heavy poundage dominate the place gettings at the shoots.
What weight equipment do you shoot Marcus, how competitive would you be, if you wound off 20 pounds of bow weight. Be honest with your self and you will see my argument.

[Juggs]

womens arrow speed can still be quite high with low poundage, jst buy some arrows that match, speed's of 280-290 can be achieved.

my first bow was 50 pounds and i got 289 fps with arrows that were over 5gn pound

[woodduck]

Juggs,
The arguments not that women cant have quick set ups, it is that men can generally always have quicker set ups with heavier bows. That is an advantage skewed to the male archers favour which is keeping women out of the top placings, ie, saving trophys at shoots end.

[Juggs]

push the pegs back,

donnt know much about aba and a little about 3daaa, but continuous high scores are being acheived off certain pegs push them back.

bit like the sighted recurve only being max 27 meters - even a medicore recurver can do well in this division

[woodduck]

Juggs,
Now we're getting somewhere, you can see that stronger
bows allow trajectory advantage. Maybe a handicap system where shooting distance is matched to bow poundage. Bows under 45 pounds shot from junior pegs? What do you think?

[Juggs]

faster not stronger.

how about having speed divisions?? just a thought

[woodduck]

Juggs,
a similar thing, but how would you administer it, a chronograph check at bow check, no I think any change has to be simple to apply, I still think poundage /distance handicap system would be better, any one else have any suggestions.

[Juggs]

not always true my 60 pound bow was faster than some people shooting 70-80 pounds.

depends on the type/brand specs of a particluar bow.

im sure a heavier similar speed arrow would not be as wind affected, but its 3d most of the courses are sheltered and the maximum distance is 45 meters

[Robert43]

Here at my local club the ladies shoot off at the green youths robert

[Eberbachl]

Marcus,
It's so fair that women shooting light equipment use great skill just to advance into the low ranks of the next grade, while men shooting heavy poundage dominate the place gettings at the shoots.
What weight equipment do you shoot Marcus, how competitive would you be, if you wound off 20 pounds of bow weight. Be honest with your self and you will see my argument.

Woodduck,

There is no reason why women should be disadvantaged at an ABA shoot. I shot compound barebow for some time in ABA, and my bow was always at 49lbs using light ACE arrows (you don't have to spend big buck to buy ACE's either....there are plenty of light arrows around these days).

My bow was just as fast as any of the guys with heavier bows. In fact, my bow was much faster than most of the heavier bows up to and over 80lbs. From memory, at the time it was doing around 275FPS (not a radical bow either for that matter, it was a Hoyt Stratus Plus with command cams).

Light poundage, light arrows = just as fast as heavy poundage, heavy arrows :D

I achieved my ABA barebow grand masters award using this setup, won state titles, and consistently scored over 380 barebow for ABA rounds. My Personal Best for that round is 394 barebow shooting a 49lb compound.

So you see, I was in no way disadvantaged by the fact that I was shooting a low poundage bow - and neither are women if they set up their bow properly so as to optimise their speed capabilities for their poundage.

Women shoot against others of the same grade in ABA. Simple. It's fair, and it works well. If a women is a 300 shooter, she shoots against men shooting 300.

Do you really think that any self respecting woman would rather come first out of one, or second out of two and be happier taking home that medal, than coming fourth out of a field of 14 archers, both men and women? In the first case, the trophy really doesn't mean much....first out of one, or second out of two isn't really all that special - but beating ten others to finish fourth in a competitive field of fourteen is a real achievement.

We shouldn't need a bit of lame plastic to make us feel good :) Our achievement should do that for us :wink:

Anyway, FWIW Women are recognised in a separate division at state titles as far as I know, and it's only 2-Day shoots that they shoot in the same group as the men......

I do agree with you however on the subject of redirecting more shoot fees back into the clubs. It's my personal belief that much more of the shoot fees could stay at the host club after an ABA 2-Day event, and that would help the clubs improve their infrastructure no end. With better amenities, and facilities, clubs would be in a better position to grow, and attract more people to thier shoots/our sport.

Cheers,

Luke.

:wink:

[coach]

I shoot ABA and from comments i get back the system should stay as it is. I think if you take the womens division out you will have a lot of pissed off archers, women and men alike.If as i,ve heard from ABA reps. it is to save some dollars on trophies ,this is pathetic!Lleave it the way it is, otherwise women will have to go buying special equipment just to be on a level playing field (maybe) and the sport is expensive enough as it is, you,ll only suceed in driving them away!!!
I,m with you wooduck and so is my wife. :D

[woodduck]

Eberbachl,
I hear what your saying , but were any women asked about this ruling before it was passed. Are they happy with the present situation. Would they agree to it if the women were asked to vote on it.
As this ruling totally concerns the women, not the blokes, I don't really think it should be up to men to decide. Your points on your 49 pound compound are noted and understood, but I think I would be correct in saying that most women shoot less than 40 pound bows and their equipment is rarely the state of the art stuff you shoot.
Would you shoot the high scores you stated if you shot the 40 ( or less) pound 10 year old compound that is pretty much the norm with wives and girlfriends that play the sport with husband/boyfriend. This game is all about enjoying what you do, and if it's not enjoyable, you're doing something wrong.
Ask around and see how many women are enjoying having to compete against the men. If you get the same opinions I've been hearing you may change your mind. Remember, archery should be fun.

[woodduck]

It's also an argument that women dont have much competition competing in their own division, because not many women compete. Call me stupid , but how is this current policy going to lure more ladies into the sport of archery. I see it as a regressive step, which will not foster family involvement. If I was thinking of a way to discourage women from participating and keeping their numbers low, a better way I could not find.

[coach]

WOODDUCK
YOU ROCK

[Eberbachl]

Eberbachl,
I hear what your saying , but were any women asked about this ruling before it was passed. Are they happy with the present situation. Would they agree to it if the women were asked to vote on it.
As this ruling totally concerns the women, not the blokes, I don't really think it should be up to men to decide. Your points on your 49 pound compound are noted and understood, but I think I would be correct in saying that most women shoot less than 40 pound bows and their equipment is rarely the state of the art stuff you shoot.
Would you shoot the high scores you stated if you shot the 40 ( or less) pound 10 year old compound that is pretty much the norm with wives and girlfriends that play the sport with husband/boyfriend. This game is all about enjoying what you do, and if it's not enjoyable, you're doing something wrong.
Ask around and see how many women are enjoying having to compete against the men. If you get the same opinions I've been hearing you may change your mind. Remember, archery should be fun


Woodduck,

My bows at that time of my archery career were hardly state of the art. They were all second hand, and had either second hand or fairly basic components. Even many of my ACE's were bought second hand from the then nock shop at around $10ea, until I saved up enough cash to buy a new set all of my own.

In fact, the Stratus Plus I mentioned, was a second hand riser I got, with the Supreme limbs from my old Super Slam, mixed with command cams from yet another second hand bow.

Would I have shot the high scores that I shot if I was shooting under 40lbs? I honestly think that the answer is yes, through careful arrow selection and bow tuning, I would have been able to achieve acceptable speeds to shoot sufficiently well.

James Park on this board has provided us from time to time with some very interesting data on exactly how much advantage is gained with extra speed, and I must say that over ABA distances out to 48m with an "average shot somewhere around 30m that speed isn't even as important as you might think. Sure, a respectable speed is an advantage, but super high 300+FPS speeds at 80lb isn't neccessary (or desirable IMHO) for the ABA game.

As far as the women are concerned, I certainly know women who like playing with the men as it gives them excellent competition, and an oportuniy to prove that they are equally able to hit the target.

Sure, some women shoot well under 40lbs - I'm well aware of that, my wife shot under 40lb for quite some time. Through careful arrow selection, and bow tuning, we were also able to achive quite respectable results with her equipment.

I do know for a fact that one of the most gratifying moments for my wife in archery was when she outclassed many of the men in a large, and competitive division at an ABA shoot to place well. She did not win the division, but she was far more satisfied by placing well, and beating many other archers in a large division, then by any of the many "first out of one", or "second out of two" trophies that she has.

As far as the rules go, I have no idea what sort of consultation occured before the implementation of these rules, I have nothing to do with that area. I would expect that if it is a branch wide implementation or policy, then it would have been discussed at branch meetings, and your club rep would probably have had an opportunity to seek the opinions of your club members on the matter before a decision was made by the branch. I may be wrong on that front, as I'm only speculating there. Bruce may be able to shed some more light on that area for us.

Anyway, you asked for our opinions......

.......What do you think?

.....and I offer you mine :wink:

Cheers,

:bday:

Luke.

[Kuru]

I didn't even know women had to shoot against the men ! that sort of sucks ! my thoughts would be if women heard that I doubt they would be to keen to shoot comps which is a real shame :(

[Eberbachl]

WOODDUCK
YOU ROCK

....coach - the Woodduck admiration society is down the hall :rofl:

[Marcus]

Marcus,
It's so fair that women shooting light equipment use great skill just to advance into the low ranks of the next grade, while men shooting heavy poundage dominate the place gettings at the shoots.
What weight equipment do you shoot Marcus, how competitive would you be, if you wound off 20 pounds of bow weight. Be honest with your self and you will see my argument.
When I was 15 I shot 396 on a 1 arrow round using a 49# PSE Fire FLight with round wheels and ACC's. ABA is not as vital on speed as 3D is due to the groupings.
That's how I think I would go.

Regarding womens divisions, I see no reason why they can not compete together, and a women's division should only be introduced if gradings are dropped.

[Marcus]

but I think I would be correct in saying that most women shoot less than 40 pound bows and their equipment is rarely the state of the art stuff you shoot.

And why is this? If you look at the target ranks then you will see that most of the top women shoot 50+lb. I coach a 16 year old girl who shoots 45#. Why are fully grown adult women incapable of shooting 40lb???
Why do their bow have to NOT be state of the art? So what you are saying the problem is that women in ABA do not train enough and do not set their gear up correctly.
My wife shoots a 2003 Hoyt Protec Cam 1/2 with X10's. Better gear than I use.

I understand what you are saying and I don't totally disagree with you. However be careful not to take the easy road of simply breaking the divisions in half. More divisions is NOT the answer to more participants.

[Juggs]

you could ask the question, should there be a noncompetitive division.

if you are attended these shoots for the fun aspect, why the hang up of not winning, have a non competitive division where you just shoot for fun and score, not placings.

in the previous responses you are getting a one sided view from fita based experience where our archers have greater access to training form guidence equipment adviseand so on and so on.

[Marcus]

in the previous responses you are getting a one sided view from fita based experience where our archers have greater access to training form guidence equipment adviseand so on and so on.
Only because we the archers seek it out Juggs, it is not bestowed apon us.
I think that both sides can learn alot from each other (yes I believe that ABA has a lot of positives that we can learn from and adopt)

[Juggs]

not tyring to give a we are better response marcus.

just think the question being asked is not crystal clear

[Eberbachl]

in the previous responses you are getting a one sided view from fita based experience where our archers have greater access to training form guidence equipment adviseand so on and so on.

Just for the record.....my responses are from the perspective of an ABA archer. At the time all I had ever shot was ABA, and all of my experience was gained from ABA archers and at ABA shoots.

[Juggs]

**** would you guys stop trying to justify your existence

[Eberbachl]

sh*t would you guys stop trying to justify your existence

What's your problem?

Woodduck asked a question....

If you're not interested in readin the responses read another thread :roll:

[woodduck]

I would like to hear what the ladies think on this topic, and I would like to learn more about the consultation on the subject before the decision was passed. The real question here is, do most women think it is a good thing or not and if its such a fair deal, why revert back to womens divisions at state titles.
Going back to womens divisions at the titles strongly implies that its all about finances and numbers. If most of the women think its fair, I will shut up, subject closed. I am not terribly impressed with blokes telling me its a fair system, its not the blokes that I believe are being disadvantaged.
If, and I believe it is, a question of money for trophys, getting more money back into the host clubs is the question that needs looking at. As things are, at present, when a club hosts a shoot, its a lot of work for very little return. The best money earner in my experience is a well run canteen. Guess who usually runs the canteen.

[Eberbachl]

.......What do you think?........

.............


....... I am not terribly impressed with blokes telling me its a........

:roll:.................

Dont crack it at somebody for giving you their opinion after you've just asked for it :wink:

[woodduck]

Eberbachl,
You have your opinion, I don't agree with everything you say, thats life, but I'm not going to get into a word game competition with you. I know where your coming from, you know my opinion, have a nice day. :D

[Eberbachl]

That's fine :wink: you've heard what I have to say about the matter. I'd also be interested to find out more about the decision. Is it only a branch-wide policy or is this practiced elswhere. What do people in other ABA branches do? How was the decision reached? If it is OK to have women shooting with men, why isn't it done at the state title as well?

Maybe Bruce has some answers about the decision making process - although from memory I think it started when Alan Driver was Greater VIC Branch controller...?

Cheers,

Luke.

:bday:

[Bruce]

Well, we're do I start :-?

First of all , I just got back from supporting a branch 2 day shoot that was hosted by BMB. It was a great weekend and we shot some ABA and 3d . If you guys had of been there you would have seen Lorraine Black beat all the men ( Lorraine is an archer from Colac ) Bill Clinton from Lilydale came 2nd and Barb Kelly came 3rd . In the sighted divisions, 3 men took out the first 3 places , Mara Murphy was a close 4th . Men and women do enjoy shooting against each other and regulary at branch shoots they beat the men .

Woody, I think you are a bit out of line , this decision was made at a branch level after the delegates taking the motion back to there members and voting on it at the following meeting. There was only one letter of complaint recieved by branch in regard to this matter , that letter was written by Lorraine Black . And after I discussed it with her as her clubs ABA rep at the time she agreed to see how it goes , now Lorraine loves the idea , her scores have increased dramatically over the last 12 months to the point that she is soon to be going into Masters .

Also, at the last ABA meeting , the delegates were given info to take back to the clubs regarding a proposal and motion to give more funds back to the clubs , might I suggest that you contact your ABA rep and ask him to fill you in on what is going on at the moment .

If you feel so strongly about the issue you are more than welcome to attend the next meetin and address the delegates . It was not done to save the branch money , Each club gets a grant of $300 to provide trophies for the shoot , If the branch provides medallions for the shoot then the club doesn't recieve a grant for the trophies .

We cater for all divisions at state titles because in the rule book it says that we must .

At the shoot this weekend we amalgamated all the sighted divisions together as well as the Bare bower's

This was agreed to by those in attendance , If the numbers of people attending the shoots starts to increase dramatically , then we will look at splitting up the divisons again , but I would personally like to keep it the way it is , The women that regulary attend 2 day shoots are all enjoying the extra competition and I have had no complaints in my time as branch controller with regard to this matter .

Once again Woody , you are more than welcome to come and address the next meeting, if this is of such a concern to you , but on speaking with the women that attend the shoots regulary I don't think it is an issue .

[woodduck]

Bruce,
I'm glad the shoot went well, wish I could have made it. I'm glad the issue of more money to the clubs is being addressed, about time in mho.
I'm not currently a member of any club, so I dont have access to an ABA rep at this point in time. Bruce you mention that it was voted at club level and then brought back to delegate level for passing, I did not know that, and accept that is correct.
I still dont think its fair, but thats my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I wonder how that vote would have gone if it was put only to the women it affected, ie, every registered female member of ABA vic. instead of the majority male membership? I will just have to agree to disagree on this one. :D

[Marcus]

While I think the rule is a good one, I think woodduck raises an interesting issue.
People not involved in the area in which the rule effects making the decision, it's impact and is it the right thing to do.

[Bruce]

The club delegates , were asked to take the proposal back to there clubs and talk to there members about it . Surely in a club , all archers have an equal say in the discussions held at the club . I know at our club in geelong everybody gets listened to and then a decision is made .I would hope that is the way that all clubs conduct themselves.

[woodduck]

Bruce,
A democratic vote system is usually the best way to go, but its not always right. At Ballarat, for example, there is 3 to 4 women members and 25 or more men. A majority vote, might be democratic and correct, but you cant tell me its always fair. I am sorry we disagree, but we must each stick with what we think is right. :-?