Are these Rounds Appropriate?

[Flehrad]

In recent light, we have received a complaint from Newcastle University regarding our proposed rounds for this years Uni Games.

We proposed:

Mens' FITA (Mens Open Recurve/Compound)
Ladies' FITA (Ladies Open Recurve/Compound, Men's Barebow Recurve/Compound)
Intermediate (Ladies Barebow Recurve/Compound, Novices)

And everyone shoots on the second day a FITA 900.

It was said from the Newcastle Uni team manager that their archers decided not to compete as the competition rounds was too "tough", did not encourage participation and enjoyability.

We believed that for university archers, even at the Novice level, this was appropriate, and meant that there was a "standard" from the FITA that results could be compared to.

Are these rounds too tough?
Are these rounds not appropriate for Uni Games?

[Clare Barnes]

Mens' FITA (Mens Open Recurve/Compound)
Ladies' FITA (Ladies Open Recurve/Compound, Men's Barebow Recurve/Compound)
Intermediate (Ladies Barebow Recurve/Compound, Novices)

I'm not commenting on the difficulty level of anything, but it is common AA practice to have Ladies Barebow shoot a Fremantle rather than an Intermediate, when the other rounds/divisions/bowtypes you have listed are shot. :D

[StevenB]

ahhh what a change from 2002 when another uni didn't want to shoot anything harder than the geelong. :wink:

I think you should have a sighting end between distances for the social shooters that don't take this as seriously as some :roll:

and start at 10am not 9am, some people don't even get up untill then

Sorry couldn't resist :P


Seriously though we had the same problems for the 2002 games on not making it too hard. I think that a fita 900 would not be too dificult for most, especially those shooting takedown recurves of no more than 25lbs with alloys.


And are TAFE students allowed to shoot at the games?

[Flehrad]

TAFE Students are allowed.

It's still possible to enter, but you'll be charged $11 additional late fee....

Yes, I knew that it is normally a Fremantle, but we decided that for the Novices that a Intermediate was a nicer round to shoot, and that the ladies barebow would also shoot the Intermediate since it is only a 5m difference.

Our archers have no problems reaching 60m for the FITA900, which means the people shooting Intermediate (55m max) won't have problems either.

For the open class reaching 90m in a 25lb with alloys is a challenge, but I can say from experience it is acheivable. I did it with a 20lb and 2114 Easton Platnums at 29" draw. Which means it by far is also do-able with 25lb and lighter arrows.

[Marcus]

I think it is wise to nottry and push Uni archery too fast. Once you have shot a few FITAs yes they are less scary, however distance doesn't matter. If you can shoot well at 90m you can do well at 60m, but some who may be competitive at 60m may not be at 90m. (Hope that made sense)

If you are hoping to get Uni Archery going as a regular competitive event try to run rounds that are challenging, but not long range. Think a little outside the box too. Try:
Perth (70, 60, 50, 122cm face)
Adelaide (60 50 40 30 face change 120 arrows)
Fremantles
Ladies FITA
FITA900
Olympic or Double Olympic

I would leave FITAs for those who wish to compete outside the uni arena and shoot shorter stuff for these events. In VIC our most populars shoot is an Adelaide round.

[frommy]

Don,

I tend to agree with Marcus on this one. There are enough variations in the AA accepted rounds to allow for differing capacities of the entrants. To go a full FITA is perhaps an overkill.

Brian

[Flehrad]

It does make sense.

We have actually never heard of any of the NSW club shoots being an adelaide, and that is why we decided to make a move towards the FITA round.

Another reason is that if we actually introduce the FITA round then we can get a eventual change towards some credibility as a University Sport.

All of the other sports use the same rounds and rules as national level and international level competition.

Our long term goal is that if we throw in a FITA now, in 5 years, a FITA will be accepted in a regional uni games, and a national uni games, and we may even be able to field a group at a international uni games level.

Staying only as a popular round and a traditional round might be nice, and work well, but it doesn't push the envelope of sport development.

We (well, me and some few others) hold the thought that if we introduce a FITA as a "normal" round, it won't be scary, and our Novices right now actually itch to shoot 90m..... but we don't let them as they might accidentally cloud shoot. But we have plenty of them shooting 70m on the odd occaision.

I'm hoping to hold a "mini-clout" using 20lb bows and alloys at a flat target on the ground at 90m-100m during the holidays. It'd be lots of fun, and gets the idea that long distances are not as difficult as people might think.

[frommy]

Don,

For medium competition levels the Canberra rounds cannot be bettered. They are designed very well IMO with ranges that accomodate everyone going down through short to junior.

And they are still challenging for the serious FITA archer IMO.

But I must admit, a full FITA is nice.

Brian

[toxic_rabbit]

I think it is good to push to the full rounds, just encourage a bit of fun,
that way the student archer

[Shirt]

It's a great idea, but would probably scare novices (and everyone has this idea that that's a bad thing for some dumb reason).

Might be worth making everyone do a Ladies FITA? It's the same number of arrows, most of the distances are interchangeable with a Gents FITA so it's not a complete waste of time (3/4 of it is practice at useful distances for the guys), and if everyone does it it means that you don't have too much hassle making sure that the targets all go forward the right amount.

0.02

[recurve boy]

Our long term goal is that if we throw in a FITA now, in 5 years, a FITA will be accepted in a regional uni games, and a national uni games, and we may even be able to field a group at a international uni games level.

I don't think trying to get from point A to E by skipping points B,C and D is going to move things along any faster. I went from having several archers looking forward to the AUS-E to all of them pulling out when they heard is was a FITA.

Not all archers have the 30" draw lengths neccessary to reach long distances on a low poundage bow. Try hitting 90 with a 30lbs recurve with a 25" draw with alloys.

We (well, me and some few others) hold the thought that if we introduce a FITA as a "normal" round, it won't be scary, and our Novices right now actually itch to shoot 90m..... but we don't let them as they might accidentally cloud shoot. But we have plenty of them shooting 70m on the odd occaision.

What's the point then?

One good thing is that I will not be holding up the tournement with how slow I shoot (I have gotten much better). We'll be too busy looking for arrows since half my guys are going to shoot clout to hit 90m. :D

[Flehrad]

Well, if we go through all the steps, it means we will be changing the rules practically each year, or every few years.
If you know the pain in the arse that we're in right now with some people *cough*NU CC*cough* saying the rule changes were not approved, we would never be able to progress to a FITA....

Well, your open class archers could always shoot recurve barebow and it would only be 70m :wink:

But honestly, I really can't see why a FITA really puts people off wanting to shoot it.....

But then, that is just me. I think as an archer, if you're going to shoot for fun, and I still do, as with heaps of our members, who cares what distance you shoot and if you hit?

It's even more of a elation if your arrows have 4 seconds of air time, and you hear the "*thock* when it hits at 90m. :P

25" draw?.... they must be rather short armed archers...

But if I can do it with 20lb 28"draw, with 29-30" 2114 Plats weighing in at 402 grains... then I really can't see why a 30lb 25" draw can't....

30lb at 25" would be equal to 24lb at 28"....... which is still do-able :P

[StevenB]

for a beginner 70mts let alone 90mts is a long way.

in 2002 I was cocky and thought that 75% of the competitors should suck it up and shoot a real round for a tournament, not a geelong, even the adelaide was a bit soft in my mind.

We wanted to have a FITA round or at least the FITA 900 as the round. Newcastle (NU) had an elite Team, we took gold in 3 of the divisions and the overall teams event, we didn't really have any beginners or novices and thus were trying to talior the event to our abilities.

These ideas were shut down (along with starting at 9am) by USyd, because there archers were there as social shooters and not taking it as a competitive sport. We also had to have a sighting end between every distance of the adelaide for the same reason.

Then I saw the competitors from the other unis. We were looking at people who were over the moon about shooting over 500 in a round (33 average an end).

I agree that there needs to be a change in the format but such a huge step will have archers just not bothering to shoot it. And considering this is probably the first time they will have ever shot a torunament it is a massive step. going to 90mts for me was a big change and I was tournament hardend with at least 20 tournaments ,with 2 nationals and 4 or 5 state targets aswell

the idea of using the canberra round as the basis for the tournament is a great idea in my opinion. it will allow for an easier intergration into the long range stuff.

[recurve boy]

Well, if we go through all the steps, it means we will be changing the rules practically each year, or every few years.
Rubbish. Only the rounds need to change. I still do not understand this "let's do it because it'll be fun" mentallity. Most archers I know enjoy archery, but we also enjoy hitting the target and doing well. We like our successes to be getting a good group, not just hitting the target.

[Flehrad]

Yes, they are all good points.

BUT, people are missing the point.

Novices aren't shooting 90m.
Beginners aren't shooting 90m.

The furthest distance they shoot will be in the FITA900, which is 60m.

However, those who use club bows of the low poundage with club arrows that are shooting with stabilizers and sights, and are not novices are those that will be shooting 90m/70m (depending on gender).

We chose carefully so that the rounds are something that would be able to actually provide interest and a slight challenge to everyone regardless of their shooting level.

Most of our club non beginners still shoot barebow, and so they have the challenge appropriate to their level and equipment, which is 70m/60m, while some others who have purchased their own gear, or have asked for sights and stabilizers will shoot the further distances to match their gear advantages.

2002, up at Newcastle was a different experience. The wind was a very different experience by far, especially since I had never been to Homebush before then too.

9am start was a disgruntlement because it does not take all day to shoot a Geelong.

9am start is a valid reason if you are shooting a FITA style event as we will be anticipating reasonable delay between rounds for people to score and collect (and hunt for lost arrows probably) as a lot of them are unfamiliar with competition format.

Saying this, we have 27 entries this year.
That is 3 more entries than our unofficial competition last year.
2002 in Newcastle, I think USyd fielded a team of 15?
This year, we have 18.

I honestly don't think that it is something that is a massive leap, and that will dissuade people from entering in the future, and still having FUN.

If anything, as our club develops (because we are always heading in some direction with a club development plan), shooting the longer distances and multi-distance competitions will be a norm, so our archers won't be daunted by that. And I think that is something that other clubs perhaps should also consider.

We faced huge problems when people wanted to shoot other distances than 30m a few years ago, but now, people are quite happy to shoot what is being set up at the time. I think that is the kind of mentality we should be trying to encourage, as it also widens their shooting experiences.

[Aarleks]

Rubbish. Only the rounds need to change.

And that requires a rule change. :roll: I think it is also important to state that this change has, as far as I am aware, been approved by AUS-E on the basis that it is the national level of competition, which is what the Open division of any elite sport should be competing in.

I'm always fascinated by this debate. It will be interesting to see what the hosts of next year's competition (if anyone takes it up) run with.

[mike]

I don't want to sound 'cockey' here or 'elitist', but just because you are a student and an archer shouldn't mean that you're somehow incapable of shooting the same rounds as anyone else.

Every single one of the 'non-students' on this forum has been through the beginner stages or is in the midst of them. No, its not 'easy' but then neither is the beginnings of learning any skill, be it tae kwon do, badminton, football, chess, you name it. But if you're keen, you'll get there.

I've been a student for all but one of my ~5 years in the sport and it hasn't changed my experience, its only meant that I haven't been able to afford all the cool gear all the time.

Get 'em out at full distances, show them that it is FUN to do that. Its scary ONCE - the FIRST time - then its fun, and nowhere do you get bigger score improvements than at the long ranges!

I really struggle to agree with this softly-softly approach people want to take. Its a sport, an olympic one no less, let people see it for that, and let them get excited about THAT!!

[Shirt]

These ideas were shut down (along with starting at 9am) by USyd, because there archers were there as social shooters and not taking it as a competitive sport.

But we're still meant to encourage the social shooters.

F**KS SAKE! If you don't want to be competitive, then at least have the good grace to not bitch viciously about those of us that DO!

*deep breath*

Sorry, been having that issue with some people in this country as well... :(

[Marcus]

there archers were there as social shooters
Social shoorters?
WTF is that?
Do you have social football players?
Social Ice Hockey players?

Archery will be stagnet untill we get rid of social shooters.

[mike]

AGREED. Social factors have to take second place because it should happen naturally. Good shooting doesn't, and that is where our attention should go.

I don't have a problem with people who enjoy shooting cos of the social side, but they shouldn't let that get in the way of the main thrust being competition. They CAN coexist.

[Flehrad]

Hmmm....

What have we started....

I don't think I really have much more to say, and until we get a definite from AUSE sometime this or next week regarding their decision, we are assuming we will shoot the FITA.

If it's overturned, then we'll be back to the Adelaide/Geelong.... :-?

[Aarleks]

If it's overturned, then we'll be back to the Adelaide/Geelong.... :-?

And that would suck.

Mike, well said. Nothing cockey or elitist (whatever that means) about it. (got any more of that Scotch?? :) ). And on a side note... how's your Honours year coming?

We at Syndey Uni want Uni archery to be elite and be seen as elite. That's why we asked to run a FITA. If that pisses a few socialites off then so be it (geez they must hate me :P ).

[Eberbachl]

Just go and shoot the FITA guys :lol:

[StevenB]

I think the real problem here with the proposed round is that you will have archers that have only been shooting for 6 months or so. And you need to cater for these shooters as well as the competitive



Archery in unis is a "social sport" it provides a club and a sport were you only compete to your level.

[Aarleks]

Novices do not shoot the FITA Steven. They shoot the Intermediate, which has shorter distances than the Adleaide. What's the problem?

The previous format was Geelong (30m) + Adleaide (60, 50, 40, 30m) for everyone. We are proposing FITA900 (60, 50, 40m), and, for novices, Intermediate (55, 45, 35, 25m). Aside from cutting that world's best practice round the Geelong (arguably a contender for 'most boring round in the universe'), how is what we have proposed more difficult for novices than what was run previously? The only difference is more variation in distance and four more ends.

Open division is different of course. However, as I have stated elsewhere, the FITA is the national Open standard, and as such we ought to adopt it as our own.

[Eberbachl]

I think the real problem here with the proposed round is that you will have archers that have only been shooting for 6 months or so. And you need to cater for these shooters as well as the competitive



Archery in unis is a "social sport" it provides a club and a sport were you only compete to your level.

Surey somebody that has been shooting for six months can have a crack at a FITA? :-? :roll: :-?

[Flehrad]

From my own experiences, I jumped straight into the deep end, and my first non uni comp was the State Target last year, which was a full FITA (this year they divided it by divisions, last year they didn't).

I was scared Sh*tless.....
But by the end of the day, I had a great time, and I met heaps of people on the line.

So what did I do this year? Straight into a double FITA for State Target, then another double FITA at the Nats only 2 months later.

If people experience it, they will actually realise it isn't bad, hard or as scary as it might seem.

And Alex's point is something that I have been trying to get some people to actually see and understand.

But people never read or if they read, they don't try to comprehend at times....

[mike]

got any more of that Scotch?? :)

As a matter of fact yes, just finishing it off now...mmmmmmm....have to say though, I perfer a top shelf bourbon...

[grantwomack]

Surey somebody that has been shooting for six months can have a crack at a FITA? :-? :roll: :-?

That's what it should all be about. The annual Roses tournament that York Uni competes in with Lancaster is an American round (2.5 dozen at 60, 50 and 40 yards), which I think is quite lame. My third outdoor tournament in my novice year was a FITA and I was hooked immediately! It was daunting when I thought about shooting it but loved it when I did. I agree with the social shooters comments though. If you aren't into shooting, don't shoot. Don't turn up but complain about what you have to do!

[StevenB]

righto then, as it would apear I have not read all the posts in this thread or others on this subject :oops: :roll:

But to redeem myself I shall delete all posts that are contrary to my statement :fist: :D


:wink:

[Aarleks]

But to redeem myself I shall delete all posts that are contrary to my statement :fist: :D


:wink:


We have the power dude!! 8)

[ec]

you could always do a reverse fita so the severely challanged get off to a good start.

[Flehrad]

I think that the standard format with longer distances is actually better for beginners and advanced all the same.

Is it better to have a good start, or a good finish?
I prefer to have a good finish, because you can catch up the points, and when you're tired out, it's nice to only have to walk 30m instead of 90m :P

[StevenB]

But to redeem myself I shall delete all posts that are contrary to my statement :fist: :D


:wink:


We have the power dude!! 8)

even better, we can just make people say what we want.

[Aarleks]

Hehe!!

[recurve boy]

AGREED. Social factors have to take second place because it should happen naturally. Good shooting doesn't, and that is where our attention should go.

Unfortunately there aren't enough Uni archers to do this. Unless you call 3 competitors per division a competition.

I did not know simply changing rounds meant a major rule change. I should have known changing anything would require lot of red tape.

I am not opposed to shooting FITAs, but to suddenly do it without some sort of stepping stone in between is a bit much. Espeically when most uni students shoot socially. You're going to scare people off. And there are plenty of less intimidating rounds that are sufficiently competitive.

If the FITA has not been approved, can another round be proposed if it falls through? (Olympic format I think is good) Can we just shoot the FITA without approval?

[Flehrad]

Marc,

We had the meeting today with Trent Dickeson from NU, and Gavin McPherson from AUS Sport.

It went quite well, and there is a general meeting on friday where the amended rules to use the FITA/FITA900 will hopefully be voted in officially.

Until we get a notification that no, we're not allowed, we will run with a FITA event.

I do see people's concerns about a full FITA, but we are hoping that with this introduced, Novices will shoot the intermediate, and then the following year a FITA will not be as intimidating to shoot.

Further more, it is highly likely USyd will host 2005 AUSE again, and we have had a brief discussion about the potential to host 2006 a National AUC event depending on how 2005 invites to other states goes.

HOWEVER, we are also interested in co-hosting the 2005/2006 events with UNSW, potentially at Homebush if it is co-hosted.

But we will have some more talk about it after the event this year.

[Clare Barnes]

Unfortunately there aren't enough Uni archers to do this. Unless you call 3 competitors per division a competition.

AA calls 1 competitor a division a competition .... :-?

[recurve boy]

HOWEVER, we are also interested in co-hosting the 2005/2006 events with UNSW, potentially at Homebush if it is co-hosted.

Haha, I was thinking of getting my SA to make a bid for next year and doing it at Homebush ... if we're still allowed to shoot there that is ... :? I heard there were problems with the owner of the grounds or something ...

You didn't answer the question though, we're not going to shoot a geelong if its not voted in are we? As much as I dislike my/any intermediate shooters shooting FITAs so soon, 30m sucks ass. C'mon, rebel!

[Flehrad]

There was concerns with Homebush being converted into a Cantebury Bulldogs training ground, but I do not know what is going on there.

We do not anticipate the event being voted against.
If they reject the rules and say we have to shoot a Geelong...
We will decide when it happens. :wink:
We might just shoot the FITA rounds anyway and declare the event null and void just to annoy some people. :P

[recurve boy]

There was concerns with Homebush being converted into a Cantebury Bulldogs training ground, but I do not know what is going on there.
Yeah something like that. I know a lady who was asked to go to some ANSW meeting about it. Now she's only a novice, hasn't been around archery for more than a few months. But her professional training was deemed useful for the occasion or some such. So she went. Now she has some ANSW position just by attending the meeting :lol: We're so screwed.

[Renegade_archer]

In Ireland there are two kinds of university archer; those who are former junior archers, and those who started in uni. Those that started as Juniors as expected dominate the system, and we keep it primarily to indoor tournaments. We have discussed adding an outdoor shoot to the calendar, and we decided for a straight shoot a FITA900 would be the best way to go, and for OR style we would hold it at 50m instead of 70 on a 122cm target, allowing even those with alu arrows and not that much poundage to still have a good chance of scoring reasonably. For the indoor tournaments until you break 400 on a Portsmouth(60cm @ 18m) you shoot Portsmouth, and once you break 400, you shoot FITA18. We could adopt a similar approach for the outdoor, your indoor scores could dictate the distance you shoot outdoors(50m or 70m) - some of the ideas we bandied about at the time.


Regards


Ewan