You be the judge

[James Park]

In the AV State Target last year:
- I shot an arrow at 50M in the second FITA (a brand new X10).
- It was a near-perfect shot and I would have expected a 10.
- It shattered upon release.
- The rear part of the arrow landed near the 3M line.
- The front part of the arrow fluttered down to the target, hitting the 3 ring.
- When it hit the target it again broke and left the front third and point in the target, and the middle third on the ground.
- The part with my initials was back near the shooting line, so there would be no way to demonstrate that the bit in the target was mine (except for circumstantial evidence).

What would you do as a judge?
- Could I claim an equipment failure? (It very obviously did fail).
- If I could not have the shot again, what should it score? 0 or 3?

[Flame]

No equipment failure and a 3 since you are a nice person :D

[Milkovitsch]

You get a 3. Consider yourself lucky. One more word and you get a 0.

But seriously, what's with the 'equipment failure'? It holds people up at tournaments - perhaps there should be no such thing; What exactly consitutes 'failure'? Can I claim that my sight has came loose and ask to shoot again? (it could come loose because of a 'failure' in the thread, for example.

If anything I guss you can claim a failure BEFORE you shoot, which I guess may be relevant to your case.

[Flame]

Maybe it is Jim's resposibility to flex his arrows before he shoots or shoot new arrows to test them. :D

who would think an x10 would break.

Have a hard time trying to convince a judge that it wasn't cracked and that you had not checked your equipment.

[Peter King]

I remember the incident and the callous SOB who raised the issue of whether the bit in the target had your initials on it. :lol:

Not sure equipment failure would run to arrows...a bearpit that one..particularly ones already shot. I think you end up with a 3, and a safety warning :lol:

[Flame]

maybe Jim should have given the SOB a close look at his knuckles :D

[Peter King]

Or nodded enthusiastically, up close, a la the Liverpool Kiss :lol:

Nope...I am sure it was said in jest .

[Robert de Bondt]

Jim,

In my opinion the arrow had been shot and can not be reshot and looking at Rule 7.4.5 I can't see any circumstance for it to be reshot. Therefore, under the circumstances you would have to be satidfied with a 3.

Equipment failures for judges or SOB :oops: are a real nightmare as it has been abused so much in the past.
In the guidelines in the Judges Manual it says in part, "An equipment failure is to replace or repair items for which the archer could not be expected to foresee a problem. Broken strings or nocks, loose sights, damaged tabs, shifted clickers and the like are equipment failures.....".
I don't think an exploding arrow would fit into this category, even though one could claim it under these guidelines, as unforeseen. Unfortunately the arrow had been shot and as such you were lucky still to get a 3 :lol: .

[Flame]

Or nodded enthusiastically, up close, a la the Liverpool Kiss :lol:

Nope...I am sure it was said in jest .

Had to be Marcel :D

[James Park]

Robert,
What about where the nock end with my initials on it landed within the 3M line (cannot remember if it was inside or outside, but it was close) and the front hit the target? It is then deemed to have been shot?

[2Dogs]

I would say as the arrow could be reached from the 3M line then reshoot it.

It comes down to the definition of Arrow.....the whole arrow or a piece of it.

[DrRalph]

Robert,
What about where the nock end with my initials on it landed within the 3M line (cannot remember if it was inside or outside, but it was close) and the front hit the target? It is then deemed to have been shot?

When the arrow disintegrates I think it might be reasonable to use the part that still contains the point to count as the arrow, ie where the point lies. In this case the 3?

[Robert de Bondt]

Robert,
What about where the nock end with my initials on it landed within the 3M line (cannot remember if it was inside or outside, but it was close) and the front hit the target? It is then deemed to have been shot?

Jim,

Even if a bit of arrow with the nock end was within the 3M line. I would still come back to, that the arrow had been shot. The 3M line is really if an arrow accidentally falls or jumps of the string, or when someone lets down, aiming his bow downwards and lets go etc.
As a judge I always try to give the archer the benefit of any doubt, but under these circumstances and the Rules I couldn't see my way clear to have you re shoot that arrow.
What about if the point would have hit the ten and the Judge would disallow it because the arrow exploded, would you complain?

[2Dogs]

No of course not :D.....but if he was winning the Nationals...the rest of us would :D

[katzgrin]

The rules are not very precise. Chapter 9 states that you cannot claim equipment failure for a faulty arrow loose fletch, damaged nock, etc (how precise).

Chapter 8 defines an arrow as consisting of a point, shaft, fletches, nock and cresting if any. By definition what arrived at the target was not an arrow. I would try for another arrow. BTW how steady were you after that happened?

Mind you I don't know the rules well enough to have come up with this ploy at atournement.

[James Park]

BTW how steady were you after that happened?
It is not exactly the thing you expect to have happen. I then inspected each of my arrows rather carefully and was a little wary during the next end. Just pleased it missed my arm. Whether I had scored 0, 3 or 10 for the shot would not have made any difference to my placing (3rd that time).

[grantwomack]

I would suggest you leave the front part of the arrow in the target and be allowed to re-shoot the back part with the nock in it. See where that lands and take an average of the two values! :D :D

[Dave Barnes]

Whats the rule with the 3m line? Is it if the point is past the 3m line it has been shot, or is it if any part of the arrow is behind the line you can re shoot it???

[Zoe]

In the guidelines in the Judges Manual it says in part, "An equipment failure is to replace or repair items for which the archer could not be expected to foresee a problem. Broken strings or nocks, loose sights, damaged tabs, shifted clickers and the like are equipment failures.....".



The rules are not very precise. Chapter 9 states that you cannot claim equipment failure for a faulty arrow
loose fletch, damaged nock, etc (how precise)
.

Chapter 8 defines an arrow as consisting of a point, shaft, fletches, nock and cresting if any

So would your average judge allow an equipment failure for a broken nock? (unless if in the guidelines they really mean a "nocking point")

[katzgrin]

When is a rule book a rule book?

In the guidelines in the Judges Manual it says in part, "An equipment failure is to replace or repair items for which the archer could not be expected to foresee a problem. Broken strings or nocks, loose sights, damaged tabs, shifted clickers and the like are equipment failures.....".

Do we need to read the judges manual to get the full and proper meaning of the rules and to know where the judges are coming from, and to decide if we think they are correct? Please correct me if I am wrong but i do not recall seeing the above statement in the rule book.

[frommy]

How many of us have seen the judges rule book? :o

[DrRalph]

I think it is fair to say that the arrow was shot. The intent of the 3m rule is recover from unintentional actions other than shooting that cause the arrow to drop near the archer. 3m is arbitrary, and approximates the old 'reaching the arrow with the bow' rule (that still lives on on field archery). The arrow was definitely and deliberately shot. Even if a bit fell inside the 3m I would still argue the arrow was shot.

That leaves equipment failure. I think you can call equipment failure before you shoot, but once the arrow is on it's way it is counted as a shot and you're in the lap of the gods until it hits the target, if it does. If you notice ther arrow was split or cracked *before* you shot, you might get an equipment failure, but you'd probably be asked to just use another arrow and get on with it.

Once you've made the shot, even if the arrow fails, you can't reshoot the arrow. Equipment failure gives you more time, not more shots, which is the critical point here I think.

Fortunately it hit the target at all, it could have been a complete miss.

Also, 'exploding arrow' is not listed in the FITA rules as a vaild reason for regarding an arrow as having not been shot, although I suppose it could be submitted for consideration at a congress?

[DrRalph]

How many of us have seen the judges rule book? :o

You can get it from the FITA website.

[Ed]

How many of us have seen the judges rule book? :o

You can get it from the FITA website.


There is no Judge's Rule Book. There exists both a FITA and also an AA
Judges' Manual for the guidance of judges - on both websites - the AA one
was updated completely in November 2003. Both manuals feature guidelines only - NOT RULES - although the FITA one does have a lot of the
Technical Committee's rulings on individual instances refereed to it by
Member Associations. The fact is that no matter where you are archers
have the right to appeal to the Jury of Appeal which means you can get
different interpretations of the same issue at differing times.
However, there is no appeal allowed once the judge has stated the value
of an arrow.
The ONLY certain rule here is if you are shooting to AA RULES which state:
Rule 9.7.5 "No extra time will be allowed in the case of an arrow defect
(i.e. damaged nock, loose vane, etc."

Ed

:roll:

[Killjoy]

How many of us have seen the judges rule book? :o

You mean the judges hand book??? I did download a copy last yr from fita website.

[Malko]

So James, what was the final decision of the judge last year?
0, 3, reshoot?