What makes the difference for really high scores?

[James Park]

I have been looking at the scores from the World Field. I have shot those types of course and they are truly difficult (most of us would feel we have done excellently if we shot a 350 for 24 targets, and it would indeed be the case). Yet we still have three compound men shooting perfect 180's for 12 targets, and Chris White perfect for 24 targets. That is just amazing shooting. Clint drops out after losing all of 2 points. I also note that they shoot an extraordinary number of X's.
The same with indoor: they get well into the 590's for a FITA 1, which seems near-impossible for most of us.
The same for FITA's: they seem to get 1400 pretty easily. I have shot in the 350's a number of times for 70M and 50M, but they seem to do it just about every time while 340's at 90M are common amongst those archers but mind-bogglingly high for the rest of us.
In fact, the same for recurve, with archers like Dave easily getting well into the mid 1300's for a FITA and scores at 70M that would be stunning for many compounders.
So, what is it that they do that we more-average archers do not?
For me, I think it is that I do not use my release device as excellently as do those top archers. My gear is near enough to perfect, and certainly hits where I aim. I am easily able to hold the sight in the 10 each time. I do get some days (or parts of days) where I use my release device excellently, and on those days I do get scores like Clint and others, but those days seem to be rare and far apart, whereas Clint and a small number of others do it all the time.
If then I can identify my limitation as how well I use the release device, what can I then do about it?
Have others thought about this sort of thing?

[pmulholland]

I agree Jim. Providing the bow is set up correctly, I find that just minor changes in my release style can alter dramatically my scores from being just average to really good. these minor changes can be as small as varying finger pressure on the release, to changing slightly where I anchor.

But then again it could also be a mindset. We could just be thinking about it all too much instead of just shooting. I know that when I have won tournaments with really good scores (setting national records) I have felt as if there is nothing I could have done to throw my shooting off, the arrows just seem to go in :D

[James Park]

I know that when I have won tournaments with really good scores (setting national records) I have felt as if there is nothing I could have done to throw my shooting off, the arrows just seem to go in :D
Yes, agree with that. On those days you simply cannot miss and you know you are going to win. On those days I find you know in advance that your score is going to be excellent, and the release just works well.
A thing I find is that when I am using my release well, I know that I am. However, if I am not using it excellently, how then do I get into the groove where I am using it excellently?
Exactly the same with recurve and the clicker, I find.

[Leighton]

A Japanese word comes to my mind to describe episodes like that. Mushin, or no mind. A placid calm where you are no longer thinking. Of course, its also very hard to achieve.

As for this whole release thing, if its all about the release, what hope do us archers still using finger tabs have? Seems like we're just blown out of the water by this new fangled release device. :) JJ, but seriously, does the release provide that much of an edge on the fingers?

[clever_guy]

"but seriously, does the release provide that much of an edge on the fingers?"

Shoot a 1414 FITA with fingers and tell me all about it...

;)


I think we have gone over this topic before...

-CG

[Marcus]

Good topic.
I've been shooting well recently and notice that on the ends that work I can get 58-60 at 70m with tight groups, so I know I can do it.
However what I find that remembering how to do it is hard.
You know those shots where it just plain works, that it.
On a good end I can do those shots 5-6 times in a row
I think the key is that these guys do it 30-90-120 times in a row, or in a round instead of like us normal people who do it 5-20 times a round.

I think it's down to simply practising and striving for those good shots and eventually they become more common. Like shooting a 300 indoor. It's just keeping that focus for as long as possible.

It's hard though.

[Kuru]

But then again it could also be a mindset. We could just be thinking about it all too much instead of just shooting. I know that when I have won tournaments with really good scores (setting national records) I have felt as if there is nothing I could have done to throw my shooting off, the arrows just seem to go in :D

Totally ! I think if those that shoot mid 1350's were to seek the advice of a sports psych they would receive alot of positive help in setting their goals higher.

[Eberbachl]

Have others thought about this sort of thing?

I've often thought about this sort of thing.

It seems to me that the archers shooting such scores not only must have excellent technique, but also an excellent frame of mind.

For the mere mortals amongst us, these scores are often seemingly impossible (I think that's half the problem).

Scores like that certainly are possible.

I'd say that most archers shooting good scores have their gear pretty well under control.

So, what's left?

Excellent technique, and a great state of mind.

The technique can be worked on with relative ease, with the aid of coaches, and resources such as Jim Park's Mastering Archery Technique Analysis.

Working on the mind however, is another thing entirely. It's not something I understand, but I'm convinced there are alot of points to be had if this component can be used efficiently.

:bday:

[mloncar]

once i was talking to dejan sitar and he told me that when he is shooting with wrist style release, he doesn't think about the release, the shoot comes totally by suprise and the only thing that he is thinking on is the aiming spot - 10!
last year he shot backtension release (solution 2.5) but he couldn't achive such scores that he did with fletchmatic, since there was another think that he had on his mind - that was the release!

i think the biggest difference between us (amateur shooters) and pros (top shooters) is that top archers have their tehnique, bow grip, release... in their subconscious - they do all this things automaticly!

a friend of mine (legend_of_sherwood) was talking to sitar and he told him, that last year when our team was going to european championship in field archery (vagney in france), dejan received a new release (solution 3) and in couple of hours he set up the release and than he shot the whole competition with same release! he shot 354 and 355 (i think)! i wonder how many of us can get used to a release so quickly!!!

[legend_of_sherwood]

I think it's down to simply practising and striving for those good shots and eventually they become more common.
It's hard though.

I tottaly agree with that. I think that's the main thing.

[Rhythm Willie]

Even though I am a relative beginner, I have just found out how a release aid is a critical factor at any level.

I bought a Carter Chocalate Addition just before the Indoor Nats which theoretically should have been a great improvement on the old release I bought 2nd hand when I first started 2 years ago. I just could'nt get it adjusted to be light enough to my liking and (with small hands) I found it too large to really wrap it into my hand enough. Disaster day 1, but improved 43 points going back to my old one on day 2.

Back to the drawing board - anyone got any thoughts on releases that suit small hands?

[Marcus]

Try the Carter Target 4, Target 3 or ust Cuz. Excellent releases.

[Brad]

I think I mostly agree that it's all in the release. I know I shoot better when the release is working without me having to think about it.

I need to be using the release the same way each and every time. However that's not always the case for some reason. Until I get that sorted out I won't get to where i want to be.

[NOCK HUNTER]

Myself, I think it comes down to timing (of the release) and getting into

a good rythum of shooting 8)

Thats when you shoot well!

[Robert de Bondt]

I remember reading many, many years ago, in a book "Archery in Earnest" By Ron Matthews with John Holden the following:-

"It is the transient lack of interest in the result of a shot that characterises the champion archer".

I think it is basically the same what Mr. Lee keeps telling his archers, "Process, Process, Process".

Basically this is also what all sport psychologist are saying in some form or another, irrespective of what sport it is.

[grantwomack]

I think release is more important for recurve than for compound. I'd say minor fluctuations in a recurve release are magnified a lot more than on a compound, where my main problem is holding the scope over the gold. I am a lot more stable with recurve than with compound. Is this because of the holding weight on a recurve pulling everything into a more strong, tense stance?

[mloncar]

i think the most inportant is to choose your aiming point and not to try put your dot/ring in the center of the target! release is very important too and a good form!

here is a very good thread:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95213&highlight=aiming+steady

[bigfella]

I have been looking at the scores from the World Field. I have shot those types of course and they are truly difficult (most of us would feel we have done excellently if we shot a 350 for 24 targets, and it would indeed be the case). Yet we still have three compound men shooting perfect 180's for 12 targets, and Chris White perfect for 24 targets. That is just amazing shooting. Clint drops out after losing all of 2 points. I also note that they shoot an extraordinary number of X's.
The same with indoor: they get well into the 590's for a FITA 1, which seems near-impossible for most of us.
The same for FITA's: they seem to get 1400 pretty easily. I have shot in the 350's a number of times for 70M and 50M, but they seem to do it just about every time while 340's at 90M are common amongst those archers but mind-bogglingly high for the rest of us.
In fact, the same for recurve, with archers like Dave easily getting well into the mid 1300's for a FITA and scores at 70M that would be stunning for many compounders.
So, what is it that they do that we more-average archers do not?
For me, I think it is that I do not use my release device as excellently as do those top archers. My gear is near enough to perfect, and certainly hits where I aim. I am easily able to hold the sight in the 10 each time. I do get some days (or parts of days) where I use my release device excellently, and on those days I do get scores like Clint and others, but those days seem to be rare and far apart, whereas Clint and a small number of others do it all the time.
If then I can identify my limitation as how well I use the release device, what can I then do about it?
Have others thought about this sort of thing?

James, I have often thought much the same thing with regard to archers shooting 1350 plus and wonder what I have to do to reach that level, and I can imagine how you would feel about those shooting in the 1400's.

It is almost a year since I posted my first 1300 and although I have shot a second 1300 since then, I have only been able to come close to it since then. I look at what I am doing and attempt to resolve those things that I believe are holding me at this level, but no matter what I do, there still seems to be something that eludes me in my quest to reach the next level of play. What it is I don't know.. perhaps it is made up of a number of little things that I don't do quite correctly. I wish I knew. However, plug on I must and hope that sooner or later things will fall into place and that I will make the transition to the next level.

[Robert de Bondt]

I look at what I am doing and attempt to resolve those things that I believe are holding me at this level, but no matter what I do, there still seems to be something that eludes me in my quest to reach the next level of play. What it is I don't know.. perhaps it is made up of a number of little things that I don't do quite correctly. I wish I knew. However, plug on I must and hope that sooner or later things will fall into place and that I will make the transition to the next level.

Mike,

I will tell you after the Nationals 2005 :lol:

[bigfella]

Don't be such a spoil sport, Robert, tell me now :P

[Harald]

Wish it was that easy, as just being told the secret..... :D :D :D

[NOCK HUNTER]

Yes...To many people looking for the Holy Grail,

when they already have it :D

It's called, Basic Form!!!!!!!!!

[Barry]

we more-average archers do not?

Jim had to laugh at this one, guess thats a matter of perspective....

[recurve boy]

I think it is basically the same what Mr. Lee keeps telling his archers, "Process, Process, Process".


Next to "Relax!", that's what I keep telling my club members! Nobody listens! :x

[Oldtimer]

As a former top-shooter in years gone past, I'd like to admit that there IS a secret to shooting well, and when I discover it again - you all better watch out !!!

[bigfella]

I have no doubt that those extolling fundamental elements of form and process are correct in a fundamental way.

If we look along a shooting line, we can see a great proportion of those shooting do indeed display correct fundamental form and the fact that they appear to land their arrows within the red ring indicates that their basic process whilst maybe lacking in places appears to be adequate.

However there has to be a difference between very good archers and those of more average ability. I think that there must be optimum form and process for each archer and that the great difficulty is in determining that optimum for each individual. In my view the very good archers have found their optimum whilst those more average of us are still searching for ours. A very good archer has to do the little things much better than we do or we would all be very good archers. I think that part of the problem that average archers have is that there are so many small elements of form and process that need to be addressed successfully with a high degree of accuracy before we can achieve the scores that would class us as being very good.

The difficulty I think is that many of us are unable to identify those elements of form and process that require our attention to take us to the next level. This is where I believe we can benefit from the advice of a competent coach who can identify the things that we should be working on. Whilst we may not become very good archers we still may become more competitive within our chosen discipline.

[bigfella]

Mind you, James, I wouldn't mind getting to your level. :D

[kgk]

If then I can identify my limitation as how well I use the release device, what can I then do about it?
Have others thought about this sort of thing?

Let's say that you put a laser pointer on your bow, and then aim at the target. Presumably the red dot will do a directed but somewhat random walk around the X. Let's say that you study the movement, for both yourself and Mr White.

1. Could the width of his movement be slightly smaller than yours?

2. Are you sure that everybody uses a suprise break?

Pertaining to #2: I spoke with David Tubb (one of the world's greatest highpower shooters), and he lets the shot go exactly at the first moment that he expects to score an X*. Such things should not be impossible with a release device, as it does come with a trigger. (Note that I'm not talking about "punching," but what certain people can do with a trigger, via extensive training.)

3. How would the quality of use of the release device be manifest by watching the laser's dot? Would it move more slowly, stay close to the X, or what?

kgk

*
His sight goes so slowly across the target that he pegs the shot when it crosses from the 10 to the X ring, going left-to-right; he has an "approach" to the target, and crosses it the same way, each time, and does NOT attempt to hold over it.

[Kuru]

As a former top-shooter in years gone past, I'd like to admit that there IS a secret to shooting well, and when I discover it again - you all better watch out !!!


lol yes and If I had any talent I'd be good :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Inquisitor]

From my view point, most of the top archers have the critical parts of their form in the subconscious. If you were to ask a top archer what they were thinking about when they were shooting, they honestly couldn't tell you. I think the difference between pros and the rest of us isn't how good our form is, it's how much of that form is in our subconscious. By having your critical form in your subconscious, you are able to fully focus your attention on "X". Take the Koreans for example, how long is it before they even get to shoot an arrow? Nine months?